[-V-]

Regardless of how angry you are with John Kerry for conceding election '04 without a fight, you've got to feel for him now. "For it before he was against it", the Swiftboat lies, and his recent botched war joke were all deceptions that should not have had any bearing on his reputation but surely added to his decision this week not to run again.

Ditto Howard Dean's irrational exuberance at his rally. Just a candidate working the crowd. The media chewed him up and spit him out.

In the past 3 days I've heard Kucinich mentioned 3 times on the late night talk show circuit and each time in a joke referencing his appearance.

Al Gore, never really said he "invented the Internet" but the legend solidified his reputation as an exaggerator.

The point is, the images of today's candidates are firmly in the hands of the audio/video engineers, who, like the beginning of every "Outer Limits" episode, "control the horizontal and vertical" on your TV screen.

I'll add a poll to this thread in a few weeks when a few more hats are thrown in the ring. Vote here as if it were a Primary and you are deciding who to put up to face the scrutiny of Election '08 in a face off with the winning GOP candidate.

You can rate the individual candidates on pure policy in the Voting Room.

[Lionhearted]

Ditto John Dean's irrational exuberance at his rally. Just a candidate working the crowd. The media chewed him up and spit him out.

??????
You meant Howard Dean, right?

[-V-]

oops. At least I didn't say Jimmy.

[Thelonious]

Richardson. He's qualified. He's experienced. He's got what it takes to be a great president. Take a real serious look at him. Among the left-wingers he's not nearly as popular as Clinton or Obama, but when Joe-Sixpack goes to the polls....

[Jennifer_SFBA]

If the status quo continues, Joe six-pack will one day wake up to no job and $7.00 per gallon gasoline and very possibly, a new, Great Depression. If he takes action against his repressive government, Joe will find himself in an American FEMA run concentration camp with no rights and no beer. For the first time in Joe six-pack's life, he will realize that rights ARE more important that beer. He will be praying, then, for someone, anyone, to get him out of the mess he's in, and, under those circumstances, certainly there will be many who will give their lives trying to do just that.

The left is ringing the alarm bells and are doing what they can to educate their fellow Americans. An examp0le of that is this site that didn't just come out of nowhere. It took a look of work and not an insignificant amount of time, energy and money to create it. This website is here to educate people so that truth is able to be spead. The left alone cannot change the course of events in America. A majority of Americans is needed to do that, maybe even a super-majority. Middle of the road politicians will not get us there, and the right is taking America and the American people in the direction we're headed, a most ugly sight, indeed.

[Thelonious]

So you think you can convince Joe SixPack to vote for the Natural Law Party?

LOL and God bless you.
I will be very very happy if I can get him to vote for Hillary Clinton. (She wanted socialized medicine if you may recall, Joe SixPack doesn't like to go that far left)

[Jane of Arc]

Too bad JoeSixPack's vote doesn't even count. But, we don't want to talk about that, now do we.

[Thelonious]

We all have our favourite issues, don't we?

I have left some commentary about these things on the ~rAdIcAl PrOgResi...... thread.

[wimzkl]

I heard Ron Paul was running, but have heard nothing since then. This is the only guy I know of that makes sense. He is anti-special interests and advocates limited government. What could be better than that?

[FDRfollower]

This in, courtesy of the Washington Pest LINK (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/22/AR2007042201339.html?nav=rss_politics)

Now, normally, I can see Edwards as a decent guy, but, I can see when he's got to go to those people, he would have to compromise on priciple. Of course, this includes nearly all of the others too.

What a horrible situation, the people with the most money to give are the most destructive to the economic well-being of the population. :(

[Wafflepudding]

If given such benefit, I don't pick a horse until the race starts, personally.

[cat's meow]

Edwards, Obama, Clinton in that order...

[Michael DeM]

For me it's Kucinich, Gravel, Green Party in that order.

[Jane of Arc]

Fly in the ointment here. Until the Democratic Congress pushes through the necessary legislation for honest, national election reform, the tactics that stole the last 2 elections are still in place. Why will anything be different? It won't. If you don't believe me, do some hard research and you'll understand.

I believe that 'the powers that be', the elite who rule our country, will very possibly select a Democrat to keep the illusion alive. They almost have to. But, guaranteed that winning Democratic candidate will be a globalist and a corporatist individual.

Elections are fun, but people, don't drink the koolaid.

[precinct chair]

Barak Omama. He is the ONLY candidate who has clear and defined positions on ALL the issues!

[FDRfollower]

Barak Omama. He is the ONLY candidate who has clear and defined positions on ALL the issues!


The only thing I've heard in the campaign from all the candidates (except Ron Paul, Gravel, and Kucinich is mostly sophist rhetoric that would make Gorgias, Prodicus, Hippias, Thrasymachus, Lycophron, Callicles, Antiphon, and Cratylus proud.

If you aren't for Impeachment of Cheney (at the least!) then you're a worthless loser and you have no business running for president. What is the position on Obama (you can't even spell his name correct) on impeachment? Let Cheney destroy the world.

[NeoCon Newbie]

Romney looks like the guy I will vote for but it is still in the open.

Anbody who votes for Hillary Obama Edwards or any other douch bag democrat doesnt give a damn about America if you vote democrat you obviously don't think for yourself you just listen to liberal news like cnn.( communist news network).Although I didnt vote in the 2004 election because I was 17 I am glad Bush won I wish he would run again but he cant so as a republican it is our duty no commi liberal gets in there and screws up America.GOD BLESS AMERICA. Damn I said the word god dont evey liberal get up and start screaming cause I said the word god.

[MAGI]

Romney looks like the guy I will vote for but it is still in the open.

Anbody who votes for Hillary Obama Edwards or any other douch bag democrat doesnt give a damn about America if you vote democrat you obviously don't think for yourself you just listen to liberal news like cnn.( communist news network).Although I didnt vote in the 2004 election because I was 17 I am glad Bush won I wish he would run again but he cant so as a republican it is our duty no commi liberal gets in there and screws up America.GOD BLESS AMERICA. Damn I said the word god dont evey liberal get up and start screaming cause I said the word god.

Yeeshhhhhhh.....you're 19!

Why aren't you in Iraq fighting the "Terrists"?

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_mary_sha_070715_a_vote_for_bush_was_.htm

July 15, 2007 at 12:46:44

A vote for Bush was a vote for the terrorists

by Mary Shaw
http://www.opednews.com

The past week was an interesting one in the so-called "war on terror".

First, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said that his "gut feeling" was that the U.S. is at high risk this summer for a terrorist attack. On other words, the guy in charge of homeland security told us that the homeland is not very secure.
Almost immediately afterwards, as if on cue, we learned that al-Qaeda has regrouped and is now as strong as it was before 9/11.

But wait! How can this be?

In the run-up to the 2004 presidential election, George W. Bush won the support of "red state" voters by touting 9/11 and the "war on terror" and convincing them that only he could keep America safe. A vote for John Kerry would be a vote for the terrorists.



Now it appears that a vote for Bush was a vote for the terrorists.

Bush took his eye off the ball. He let bin Laden get away. Almost six years after the attacks of 9/11, bin Laden is still at large. And why? So we could focus instead on Iraq, which, at the time we invaded that country, posed no threat to the U.S. or our allies, and had no credible ties to al-Qaeda.

So here we are.

Iraq remains devastated. Many Iraqis believe that life for the Iraqi people is worse today than it was under Saddam Hussein. In many cases (if not most), the Iraqi people have fewer jobs, less clean water, less electricity, and a lot less security than they did before we went there. And those are the lucky ones.

Tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi men, women, and children have lost their lives in this war.

Countless others have been tortured.

And, as of this writing, more than 3,600 U.S. troops have been killed in Iraq, and tens of thousands more have been wounded.

And for what? For nothing, I fear.

And every day we remain there, real security gets more and more unlikely -- for the Iraqis, for the U.S., and for our allies.

Bush had his chance, and we know now that his promises to keep us safe and effectively combat terrorism were no more credible than his promise to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Enough is enough.

So, Neo Con Newbie, When will you be joining the service to fight your hero's war in Iraq?

:confused:

[ProudGOP]

Bush had his chance, and we know now that his promises to keep us safe and effectively combat terrorism were no more credible than his promise to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Tell me Magi, When was the last attack on U.S. soil? He has been keeping YOU safe for the past 6+ years.

And, as of this writing, more than 3,600 U.S. troops have been killed in Iraq, and tens of thousands more have been wounded.

Maybe, just maybe, this war would be over by now with ALOT less casualties if America did not have to fight with one arm tied behind it's back. It's tough to fight a "politically correct" war.
We have not used some of the most effective weapons at our disposal for fear of killing "innocent" civilians.
The insurgents, or as liberals like to call them, "freedom fighters" hide in mosques. When they take cover in a mosque wouldn't it be so easy to just obliterate the building? But, no we can't. So instead we fight them with troops on the ground.

Bush had his chance,

No he didn't. From day one liberals have bashed our President. He was even bashed for his so called "bad" reaction to the news of the 9/11 attacks. Face it liberals are so angry that Kerry didn't win that no matter what Bush does it will never be good enough.
Liberals make Hussein out to be this wonderful benevolent leader of a free country. He was a mass murderer who had countless chances to PROVE he had no WMD. He CHOSE not to cooperate with the U.N.(liberals love the un). Bush gave Hussein an ultimatum and stuck to his word.

I might actually vote democrat this time. If a democrat takes office, the following will occur:
1. You guys on this forum won't have anything to bitch about.
2. Radical muslims will love us. No more terrorist attacks.
3. The whole world will love America.
4. There will be no more:
A.homelessness
B.poverty
C.unemployment
D.hunger
E.healthcare issues
5. The sun will always shine and birds will follow me around singing.

I can't wait....Hillary...Obama...Edwards...`08 !!!!!! Go Democrats !!!!!!

[FDRfollower]

Yowzers. Proudgop you're a cynical pessimistic know-nothing.

Lets see, the last attack was done under Cheneys direction, if I can remember. Since he's kept his dictatorial style (Democrats being under the Rohatyn thumb) there hasn't been a need for another "Reichtag fire". Cheney certainly has no moral qualms about using terrorists now.

Stop with the Cheney propaganda about Saddam you shameless person you.

Remember, this thread is about the candidates.

[ProudGOP]

Yowzers. Proudgop you're a cynical pessimistic know-nothing.

Lets see, the last attack was done under Cheneys direction, if I can remember. Since he's kept his dictatorial style (Democrats being under the Rohatyn thumb) there hasn't been a need for another "Reichtag fire". Cheney certainly has no moral qualms about using terrorists now.

Stop with the Cheney propaganda about Saddam you shameless person you.

Remember, this thread is about the candidates.

FDR, drinking and posting don't mix. Your statement makes no sense.

"Cheney propaganda"?????
So, Saddam wasn't a ruthless dictator, mass murderer and rapist?
And you call me a "know-nothing"?????
You are a naive,pompous,scumsucking liberal!!!!!! Go crawl back into your bottle and read some more history books!!!!!!

And why no comment to Magi about this thread being for the candidates? Her reply to newbie had nothing to do with the candidates. Typical liberal hypocracy !!!!

[MAGI]

Tell me Magi, When was the last attack on U.S. soil? He has been keeping YOU safe for the past 6+ years.

MAGI:
:D :rolling:

Sure, like he and his buddies kept U.S. safe on 911! :rolleyes:

Have you read the thread I started specifically for you,
Proud slave, er, servant of the GOP? #1 tells how your master has infiltrated, infected, and infested "our" security!


http://progressivesonline.com/showthread.php?t=1231

Let's take this conversation there.............

[MAGI]

Here's some views today..............
http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/08/28/whos-on-second/#comments

[joepol4]

Golly geez and yowza:
It's been a while since I have visited the progressives online so forgive me for being a bit out of touch. Alas, I have to say at this point in time that Dennis Kucinich stands for the values that I believe a progressive president might possess so he is my man right now and is not b eholden to corporate interests and Big Oil companies etc. Yet I am still hoping that Al Gore will enter the race.
Hope everyone has had a great summer -it's gonna be an interesting fall!

[JamesP]

Golly geez and yowza:
I have to say at this point in time that Dennis Kucinich stands for the values that I believe a progressive president might possess so he is my man right now and is not b eholden to corporate interests and Big Oil companies etc. Yet I am still hoping that Al Gore will enter the race.


I agree. Kucinich is the best man...but can't win in the America that elected George Bush twice. Gore is a good man... and can win.

[Jane of Arc]

How does Kucinich or any other Republican or Democrat or Green or Blue candidate get elected in America? Can someone please thoroughly explain to me how the present electoral system functions?

[MAGI]

How does Kucinich or any other Republican or Democrat or Green or Blue candidate get elected in America? Can someone please thoroughly explain to me how the present electoral system functions?

..............and, Will Rush Holt secure The corporate Fix with his sabotaging Bill?

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_nancy_to_070902_moveon_and_hr811__28th.htm

September 2, 2007 at 10:22:17

MoveOn and HR811 (the Holt Bill)

by Nancy Tobi Page 1 of 3 page(s)

http://www.opednews.com

skip


Many people have emailed me asking what does the NH Fair Elections Committee think of the so-called "compromise" version of the Holt bill being brought to the US House floor this coming Wednesday.

They want to know, how should they vote in MoveOn's latest poll, asking their feelings about the bill. We see this as a good sign, that after months and months of pro-811 propaganda and ignoring the voting integrity movement's concerns, MoveOn seems to be open to a new look at their steadfast and inexplicable support of HR811.

skip

So here's the straight poop. When they say the latest version is a "compromise" bill, what this means is that Congress has compromised the will of the people, the good of the nation, in favor of industry lobbyists. In December 2006 wethepatriots.org submitted to every cosponsor of HR811, including NH Congressman Hodes, a letter in opposition to HR811 with suggested amendments. This letter was signed by 800 American citizens and organizations.

How many industry lobbyists does it take to outweigh 800 ordinary Americans? Apparently as many as can fit into a room with the House Administration Committee.

In July 2007 Mark Crispin Miller revealed what Congressman Rush Holt's counsel had to say to voting integrity activists about this latest "compromise" version of HR811:

There is no doubt that Rush Holt has, in working on his bill, unduly heeded the concerns of interested corporations. This is not a speculation but a fact, which was revealed to me straightforwardly by Holt's own counsel, Michelle Mulder, who is, of course, a fervent advocate for HR 811. Recently Michelle tried, via email, to respond to some of the concerns expressed by me and several other activists, at one point asserting that the bill will not legitimize the use of secret vote-counts.

In response, I pointed out that the continued use of DRE machines, which HR 811 would permit, makes secret vote-counting inevitable, since there's no way to watch computers add up votes, or send them on to tabulators, or manage any other data.

And then I made this second point about the actual secretiveness enabled by Holt's bill:

"Unless this point in the legislation has been changed, the bill as marked up in committee now stipulates that the e-voting software be available only to 'qualified' individuals, who must sign strict non-disclosure agreements."

(This was an extraordinary change, because the early version of the bill had ordered that such software must be readily available to everyone. See my vlog on this.)

And here is Mulder's staggering reply:

"That's not what the bill said when introduced. Therefore, you can take up your concerns with Microsoft and others in the proprietary software industry. During Committee proceedings they lobbied very heavily against the language that was in the bill as introduced and none of you lobbied in favor of the language that was in the bill as introduced, and thus, the software industry won. It's very simple, really."

In other words, companies like Microsoft, Diebold and ES&S had problems with the early version of Holt's bill; and Holt himself not only listened to them, but obliged them, so that his "election reform" bill would now make our system even more undemocratic than it is already. Of this development Holt's office made no public mention, as if those private companies' dictation of the law was no big deal.

And this, Holt's counsel says, is not Holt's problem. In fact, it's our fault, for not having "lobbied very heavily" for our position (which would have been a little hard, since Holt's people have consistently refused to talk or listen to the bill's opponents).

In any case, if we don't like it, we can somehow "take up our concerns" with Microsoft et al.--and do so without Rush Holt's help.

The NH Fair Elections Committee remains opposed to HR811, and we hope to be reporting, after Wednesday's vote in the House, that our two NH Democratic representatives will have realized they are in Washington to represent New Hampshire, whose key stakeholder constituencies (NH Secretary Bill Gardner, the NH Association of City and Town Clerks, the NH Fair Elections Committee) uniformly oppose the bill, and not the Democratic Party, which seems intent to ram it through come hell or highwater.

skip



Well, for all it's worth, I voted against HR811 in The Move On poll.............

:mad:

[snowdog]

OK....can someone please explain to me why Barrack and Hilliary are fighting it out as the 2 front runners......and for the past month and a half there main push has been of course who has the most "experience". lets see, so experience is apparently a very important issue....if that is the case, Mr. Biden has more experience than all the Dem candidates combined. and yet is only 3 % in the polls. Richardson has more experience that the two front runners, yet he is at about 3%. I kinda think the far left won't back them or "Moveon.org" and this is why all polls show hilliary has an over 50% dissaproval rating nationally. and then ya wonder how in the world can the dems screw up this golden opportunity.

[JamesP]

Good point, Snowdog.
I am concerned that while the most "electable" candidate may be emerging for the Republicans (Huckabee), the Dems may be on their way to nominating a candidate with high, high negatives or low, low experience.

By the way, nice to hear from you. Hope you are well.

[haus]

So, for the sake of completeness 2 years later, I finally voted for Obama over Clinton. I spent a few minutes in the booth considering voting for Feingold (who voted for Obama himself) and a strategic vote for Huckabee to discomfit McCain.

Anybody else?

[ProudGOP]

Now that barack hussein obama is the democratic nominee, let's take a look at what he is. This is the guy liberals want to be President of The United States of America !!!!
magi, you call me naive?????


http://www.theurbangrind.net/?p=2570

[Magi2]

Oh what a load of distorted, manipulated, contrived Bullshit!

I witnessed a lot of what that video shows and see how things taken out of context can fool the likes of you & your ilk.

I provided you with Reverend Wrights FULL SPEECH, Did you view & listen to it?

Ann Coulter...........OMG what a reference! :rolleyes:

Senator Edward Kennedy's scene on your prized video.......
what manipulated, contrived out of context crap your fascist propagandists present!
and foolish uninformed people buy that!

I saw Senator John Edwards in that debate, did you? There was good cause for Obama to vote present! Of course your video doesn't present Obama's anwer!
The bills had so much add ons, that to vote for them sabotaged good bills. That is what I mean by "long time encumbering incumbents" who compromised our Democracy to the mess we have now!
Let's hope we'll finally see our legislators give us CLEAN bills without the crap that has broken our Constitution.

Do you know McCain's record on voting?

Got to tell you I got a real good laugh out of Reverend Wright doing to Hannity what Hannity has done to anyone foolish enough to appear on his show! That was SO GREAT, Proud, member of OUR Corporate owned Government Of Prostitutes!
It was worth watching that manipulated propaganda, because after witnessing what really happened on many of those presentations, I see how ignorant people can be fooled and swayed to vote for the likes of G.W. Bush (twice no less) and McSame! :D :laughing:
They're (you're) too lazy and brainwashed to find the WHOLE TRUE story and instead view and listen to the fascist producers of the rethuglican distorted video you present.

So I repeat,
What a load of Bullshit!

[Magi2]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IBCaqdH1FDY

Failed Conservative Values, Barack Obama: Status Quo v Change

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-s-mcelvaine/americas-40-years-war-at_b_105030.html

[ProudGOP]

magi, everything is always "taken out of context" with you liberals. rev. wright is a racist anti-American, preacher of hate. obama sat in his church for 20 years.

Senator Edward Kennedy's scene on your prized video.......
what manipulated, contrived out of context crap your fascist propagandists present!
and foolish uninformed people buy that!

Manipulated???? Was it a voice over???

It was worth watching that manipulated propaganda, because after witnessing what really happened on many of those presentations, I see how ignorant people can be fooled and swayed to vote for the likes of G.W. Bush (twice no less) and McSame!

Was obama's refusal not to put his hand over his heart during our national anthem "propaganda"???
YOU, are the ignorant one. You are so filled with hate of GWB, that you will believe and cling to anything that people like obama says!!!!

Wright's full speech doesn't change the fact that he hates America and is a racist. What is your point?

Why was obama so quick to denounce Imus and then defend wright? Does the word HYPOCRITE mean anything to you? I think Imus' remarks were far less inflamatory than wright's.

So I repeat,
What a load of Bullshit!

Keep telling yourself that. We're all going to pay if barack hussein obama fools the American public into giving him the Presidency.

Liberals are naive fools who will ruin this great nation if the public doesn't wake up !!!!!

[Magi2]

Proud, a member of the Corporate ( fascist) Government Of Prostitutes..........a person unable to think for self or see because of blind hatred and so completely without logic!

Re: Who's your '08 Candidate now?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IBCaqdH1FDY

Failed Conservative Values, Barack Obama: Status Quo v Change

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert..._b_105030.html

http://welcome-to-pottersville.blogspot.com/2008/06/ten-things-republicans-should-never-say.html

[Magi2]

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/edcut/?pid=323530

Obama at Wesleyan University, where he filled in for Senator Edward Kennedy on Memorial Day:


skip

"during my first two years of college, perhaps because the values my mother had taught me –hard work, honesty, empathy – had resurfaced after a long hibernation; or perhaps because of the example of wonderful teachers and lasting friends, I began to notice a world beyond myself. I became active in the movement to oppose the apartheid regime of South Africa. I began following the debates in this country about poverty and health care. So that by the time I graduated from college, I was possessed with a crazy idea – that I would work at a grassroots level to bring about change.

I wrote letters to every organization in the country I could think of. And one day, a small group of churches on the South Side of Chicago offered me a job to come work as a community organizer in neighborhoods that had been devastated by steel plant closings. My mother and grandparents wanted me to go to law school. My friends were applying to jobs on Wall Street. Meanwhile, this organization offered me $12,000 a year plus $2,000 for an old, beat-up car.

And I said yes.

Now, I didn't know a soul in Chicago, and I wasn't sure what this community organizing business was all about. I had always been inspired by stories of the Civil Rights Movement and JFK's call to service, but when I got to the South Side, there were no marches, and no soaring speeches. In the shadow of an empty steel plant, there were just a lot of folks who were struggling. And we didn't get very far at first.

I still remember one of the very first meetings we put together to discuss gang violence with a group of community leaders. We waited and waited for people to show up, and finally, a group of older people walked into the hall. And they sat down. And a little old lady raised her hand and asked, "Is this where the bingo game is?"

It wasn't easy, but eventually, we made progress. Day by day, block by block, we brought the community together, and registered new voters, and set up after school programs, and fought for new jobs, and helped people live lives with some measure of dignity.

But I also began to realize that I wasn't just helping other people. Through service, I found a community that embraced me; citizenship that was meaningful; the direction I'd been seeking. Through service, I discovered how my own improbable story fit into the larger story of America.

Each of you will have the chance to make your own discovery in the years to come. And I say "chance" because you won't have to take it. There's no community service requirement in the real world; no one forcing you to care. You can take your diploma, walk off this stage, and chase only after the big house and the nice suits and all the other things that our money culture says you should by. You can choose to narrow your concerns and live your life in a way that tries to keep your story separate from America's.

But I hope you don't. Not because you have an obligation to those who are less fortunate, though you do have that obligation. Not because you have a debt to all those who helped you get here, though you do have that debt.

It's because you have an obligation to yourself. Because our individual salvation depends on collective salvation. Because thinking only about yourself, fulfilling your immediate wants and needs, betrays a poverty of ambition. Because it's only when you hitch your wagon to something larger than yourself that you realize your true potential and discover the role you'll play in writing the next great chapter in America's story ".

skip

[jr2007sc]

They're (you're) too lazy and brainwashed to find the WHOLE TRUE story and instead view and listen to the fascist producers of the rethuglican distorted video you present.

Hey Magi (Progressivesonline.com's exaulted minister of leftist propaganda),

Don't take this personally, but you're either unbelievably gullible and stupid, or a hypocrite.

How come all the articles you cite from firedoglake.com and huffingtonpost.com are the "truth", but those of us that disagree with you are foolish, uninformed and brainwashed? Are you saying that either of those sites are somehow objective and have no political bent?

Really, please answer. I'm very interested in your response.

[Magi2]

Indeed those sites are very objective and have political bent! They represent truth and seek Liberty and Justice for ALL.

Their articles cite other records showing how they arrived at their opinions and why they came to voice their opinions.

They present facts which enable reasonable people to research those facts and form opinions.

They just can think for themselves after examining all facts and don't care what others think about their stance.

They love OUR United States of America and present and base their thoughts on facts, unlike dreaming up nonsense or manipulated propaganda or outright lying, JR 2007sc.

:sunny: :thumbup: