[1tinsoldier]

I had to pass on this story from a discussion I had today with someone in my community regarding his church experience last Sunday:

The service began with a plea from a church staff member to get people to register to vote. For the most part, his speech was non-partisan, until he got to the end where he stated that the next president will likely appoint several supreme court justices. To paraphrase, he said "we need to get justices in there that will protect the rights of our children, born and unborn." At this point, his political affiliation became obvious.
...
From here, the pastor took some historical liberties and made gigantic leaps of logic. At this point he highlights that Lincoln was not a popular president while in office due in large part to his "simple and resolute message that slavery was wrong." Continuing, "he was ridiculed in his time for the lack of complexity in his message. He wasn't the most eloquent man. But now, in retrospect, we see what a great man he really was."

The use of these words was not lost on me. Just about every right-wing minion out there has been using similar speech to defend Bush's recent debate performance.

He then continued, "what do you think would have occurred to the legacy of the great president Lincoln if he had said something like 'I voted for it before I voted against it?'" At this point, it became very clear what the agenda of this particular service was.

Whenever I hear some religious freak on TV pimp for the far right agenda, I can simply change the channel and be done with it. Here, a man I had trusted was using his bully pulpit to enact what was nothing more than a political ad. So, I'm not sure what outraged me more. The fact that he was using a place of worship to put into effect political change, or the fact that he was dragging God into a man-made political conflict. Or, maybe that he had the audacity to compare Bush's decision-making with Lincoln's. My wife and I caused quite a bit of murmuring among the "flock" when we walked out. What was disappointing was that we were the only ones that did walk out. Nothing but sheep....

I replied:

thanks for the details. It is amazing to me how the church chooses to have abortion negate every other issue. The Bible doesn't talk about abortion. Mortal men condemn abortion based on pure speculation as to when the embryo/fetus is a separate human being rather than another part of the mother's own body. One could also speculate that sperm is an unborn child, therefore, your Pastor should preach against voting for any Republican who masturbates. All of which may be beside the point, because you can't kill a soul even if the embryo has one. You can only destroy the tissue.

If a Pastor wants to promote the concept that "Thou Shall not KILL" he should point out that the President's needless war has killed or maimed tens of thousands of innocent civilians and his lack of diplomacy in the world will continue on the path of death and destruction.

The Bible also says "He that killeth an ox is as he that slayeth a man."
(chap. Isaiah 66 verse 3). So maybe your Pastor should be dropping thinly veiled condemnations of McDonald's.

And while he's at it he should preach about how the current administration continues to push policies that rape our environment, increase pollution in our air and water, increase healthcare and energy costs, not in the service of God but in the interest of increasing corporate profits and in the worship, not of the All-mighty, but of the All-mighty Dollar.

[Badandy]

1tinsoldier -

I admit, it was wrong of that pastor to put forth a political agenda, but I strongly disagree with you on one point.


At the end you talk about "increasing corporate profits" and then it struck me. No matter what I am listening to, it seems like Democrats always are engaged in class warfare whether it be wanting to raise taxes for the rich (which is entirely wrong) or just hating corporations period.


Will someone please explain what is wrong with businesses and corporations?

[1tinsoldier]

Will someone please explain what is wrong with businesses and corporations?

Big business and corporations are about one thing -- profits, that get absorbed by the fattest cats at the top while the peanuts "trickle down" to the peasants.

If you follow the stock market you should know that CEO's would step over their own mother to boost their bottom line. Deregulation and what Bush has done regarding air and water pollution, health care, energy, and drug companies are all examples of Bush putting the profits of big business over the best interests of American citizens.

If you are not already independantly wealthy, Badandy, I suggest that you stop drinking the Bush/Cheney Kool-aid. If they win in 4 weeks, YOU lose!

[Badandy]

Big business and corporations are about one thing -- profits, that get absorbed by the fattest cats at the top while the peanuts "trickle down" to the peasants.




You are kidding, right? Big business and corporations provide millions of jobs to American people. Is there something wrong with them making money? This is just another democrat class warfare campaign. I don't get it. If you work for a big company, you have a job, not counting the billions of dollars they give to charity every year.


For instance, in the recent supermarket strike in California the baggers were complaining (well, the union actually) that they weren't getting paid enough or benefits. This degregaded in class warfare by everyone calling the corporations just plain old greedy and good for nothing. This is besides the fact that corporations STIMULATE THE ECONOMY BY INVESTING, GIVE PEOPLE JOBS, and give a LOT OF MONEY TO CHARITIES. I thought I would put that in caps since people don't seem to understand it.

On the same note, the reason I am so against Kerry Edwards, is because I do not think it is right to raise taxes on the rich. The rich are the ones create jobs, and stimulate the economy. When is the last time you worked for a poor person? Even if they were in debt because they were starting a business they have the entrepenuerial (wow, just try to pronounce it) spirit that shapes America.

I don't see why we should tax people who started from absolutely NOTHING and worked long hours, and worked smart to become millionaires. Had nothing handed to them ever, and still made something of themselves by being a bagger before saving enough money to go to college or get a better job. Dont think that most of the rich have just had money handed to them, that is not true. Some have, but most have actually worked for it. Believe me. I know.

[JamesP]

No kidding. 1tinsoldier Soldier's statement is obviously true.

Your statements typify the self-justification of greed and irresponsibility that characterize the radical conservative rich point of view.

America's wealthy are at the very top of the world food chain. They pay less in taxes than any in the industrialized world and enjoy the highest standard of living and security. They get the most benefit out of our great country and they rarely send their young to war to defend it. The patriots among them, acknowledging this, pay their fair share of taxes willingly (and in doing so, hardly experience any difference in their lavish lifestyles).

America's greatness (& uniqueness) lies in it's creation of a vast middle-class. The unions, worker protections and social programs played a large role in this and our democracy could not have been sustained without them.

You and the Bushies would prefer that we were just another third world nation: very few very rich people (who inherited their wealth, of course) living on a hill with the masses living in wretched poverty below, begging for low-wage jobs and grateful to have them (until the revolution).

Shame on you for glorifying the rich and denigrating workers. The average cab driver works much longer & harder than the average business owner (and spends no time on the golf course or cruise ships). We should respect both, but which is more deserving of glorification and which is in a position to contribute more to support the budget-busting crusades of the Bush administration?

The "class-warfare" that you speak of is waged by the wealthy, powerful and priviliged against the poor and working class in this country.

[LQuotes]

B Dandy,

JamesP and 1tinsoldier Soldier are giving you such a trouncing here that it reminds of the classic matchups between the Harlem Globetrotters and the Washington Generals. Like the Generals, you are hopelessly out of your league, but you keep the game fun. Please don't go away! ... And thanks for the warning about those bag boys. If we are not careful, pretty soon shoe shine boys will start getting uppity, too.




You are kidding, right? Big business and corporations provide millions of jobs to American people. Is there something wrong with them making money? This is just another democrat class warfare campaign. I don't get it. If you work for a big company, you have a job, not counting the billions of dollars they give to charity every year.


For instance, in the recent supermarket strike in California the baggers were complaining (well, the union actually) that they weren't getting paid enough or benefits. This degregaded in class warfare by everyone calling the corporations just plain old greedy and good for nothing. This is besides the fact that corporations STIMULATE THE ECONOMY BY INVESTING, GIVE PEOPLE JOBS, and give a LOT OF MONEY TO CHARITIES. I thought I would put that in caps since people don't seem to understand it.

On the same note, the reason I am so against Kerry Edwards, is because I do not think it is right to raise taxes on the rich. The rich are the ones create jobs, and stimulate the economy. When is the last time you worked for a poor person? Even if they were in debt because they were starting a business they have the entrepenuerial (wow, just try to pronounce it) spirit that shapes America.

I don't see why we should tax people who started from absolutely NOTHING and worked long hours, and worked smart to become millionaires. Had nothing handed to them ever, and still made something of themselves by being a bagger before saving enough money to go to college or get a better job. Dont think that most of the rich have just had money handed to them, that is not true. Some have, but most have actually worked for it. Believe me. I know.

[Badandy]

They pay less in taxes than any in the industrialized world

Believe it or not, the rich pay more taxes than you (judging your annual income from your remarks). What do you pay federal? 10? 15? 20? 25 percent? How about the top brackets paying 33? So let me get this straight, you want to tax the wealthy people who create jobs and spur the economy because you believe in income redistribution and socialism?

(and in doing so, hardly experience any difference in their lavish lifestyles).
O yes, and everyone who makes over 200k has a "lavish lifestyle". Have you ever considered the fact that maybe the people who make that much actually worked to get there and started with nothing? Maybe instead of doing whatever you are doing, you should get out into the market place, get an education (if you don't have one) and get a good job that pays well and keep trying to legitimately make more money. Until you do, DO NOT tell me that the rich live "lavish" lifestyles. How dare you. Seriousely.


America's greatness (& uniqueness) lies in it's creation of a vast middle-class. The unions, worker protections and social programs played a large role in this and our democracy could not have been sustained without them.

Unions served a purpose long ago, but now they are ridiculous. You must be a union worker, but I am against checkers (a completely unskilled job) making over 15 dollars per hour.

You and the Bushies would prefer that we were just another third world nation:

O yes. Exactly. You nailed. Capitalists like me would love us to be a 3rd world nation. Actually, it would be socialists like you who are inadvertantly leading us there.

very few very rich people (who inherited their wealth, of course) living on a hill with the masses living in wretched poverty below, begging for low-wage jobs and grateful to have them (until the revolution).

Not every rich person inherits their wealth. I thought we want over this.

Shame on you for glorifying the rich and denigrating workers. Shame on you for making assumptions, I never said that.

The average cab driver works much longer & harder than the average business owner (and spends no time on the golf course or cruise ships).

Much longer and harder? How about 65 hours a week? Is that long enough for you? How about having no money, and selling stuff at swap meets and paying a way through education? How about taking financial RISK (when you can't afford to lose). They are also workers, they just don't work with their hands.

We should respect both, but which is more deserving of glorification and which is in a position to contribute more to support the budget-busting crusades of the Bush administration?

The "class-warfare" that you speak of is waged by the wealthy, powerful and priviliged against the poor and working class in this country.

Class warfare is not waged by the wealthy. In fact, it is waged by people like you, not appreciating the rich and thinking all of them just lie by the pool all day.(MOST of whom have not inherited their money).



Go to France or another socialist country. I prefer to live in a capitalistic society like our forefathers intended it. Wise-up before you continue with your incoherent and badly thought out dribble.

[JamesP]

Bad Andy:

You've lost your cool (much like George Bush in both debates).

Why is it hard to admit that you live very well (even lavishly - by world standards) and are not necessarily the hardest-working person on the planet? Possibly admitting this while maintaining your political views could be uncomfortable. Try a little humility, gratitude, patriotism and "compassionate conservatism". It could be refreshing for you. Patriotism, after all, is not just about what's good for you personally (like low taxes & cheap labor).

As for me.... my family and I are quite comfortable and very appreciative of our good fortune in being "born in the USA". We're living the American dream and want to preserve the same possibility for others.
France, a socialist country?
We're staying in the USA, thank you, and working for a better country for all. And a better USA contributes toward a better world.
You sound like a bright, hard-working, industrious fellow. Join us.

[Badandy]

James, it is not that I have lost my cool, but this is getting ridiculous.

Bad Andy:



[quote]Why is it hard to admit that you live very well (even lavishly - by world standards) and are not necessarily the hardest-working person on the planet?

What is this with hard working? I never said I lived lavishly (that will be up to your imagination), but why do you not think that some rich people work hard? Yes, some have inherited money, but did you ever consider that some rich people worked to become rich and had a job that they loved? Maybe they took financial risk and invested their money. Just because some people don't have callouses on their hands doesn't mean they don't work hard. And for you to demean some rich people by insinuating they don't work hard is frankly inexcusable.

Possibly admitting this while maintaining your political views could be uncomfortable. Try a little humility, gratitude, patriotism and "compassionate conservatism". It could be refreshing for you. Patriotism, after all, is not just about what's good for you personally (like low taxes & cheap labor).

You are telling me about gratitude, humility, and even patriotism? Who do you think you are? You don't know me, and I don't expect you to, but until you can say that I don't show gratitude and pattriotism your comments are out of place.

As for me.... my family and I are quite comfortable and very appreciative of our good fortune in being "born in the USA". We're living the American dream and want to preserve the same possibility for others.

Good, I am really glad for you. But you are saying just when you get up another tax bracket you aren't living the American dream? So, when someone makes more money they are doing at the expense of others? Your comments are incredible to me how ignorant you are (not a slam, I meant lack of knowledge, not intelligence).


France, a socialist country?

Did I stutter?

We're staying in the USA, thank you, and working for a better country for all. And a better USA contributes toward a better world.
You sound like a bright, hard-working, industrious fellow. Join us.

I will join you. I will join you in employing people, in investing money to stimulate the economy. I will join you in working my hardest to secure the future for myself and for my family. Unfortunately, I really don't like to get penalized for doing that, for working hard. That is against my instinct, and that is exactly what Kerry is planning to do. I for one, want more money in my pocket to invest, hire more people, and give to charity.


Thanks for listening.

[JamesP]

Bad:

... something...blah, blah, blah....my taxes are too high....blah-blah-blah.... I work hard.... blah, blah, blah.... John Kerry is trying to take my money and give it to the bad, lazy people.... blah, blah, blah.... It's "hard-work" being an affluent American... worse than being a poor farmer in the Sudan... blah, blah... right-wing American's are misunderstood...blah, blah.... we're good and charitable and compassionate...blah, blah...you just can't tell by the way we act or think... blah-blah...I read a book once about the wealth of nations ... blah-blah.... it helped me justify my natural impulses toward greed and self-interest ... blah-blah... anyone who doesn't recite the "greed is good" mantra is just woefully "uninformed"... blah, blah, blah...."liberate" the middle-east...we need oil....
It's like listening to Limbaugh! You are an avid "ditto-head" aren't you?

[Badandy]

Thank you for resorting to personally attacking me. You truly are one of those understanding and tolerant liberals.



Why don't you spend some time reading my posts and digging for the meaning rather than just wanting to see a greedy capitalist.

[anartgrey]

Please, someone tell me this is not true:

US Troops Reportedly Gassing Fallujah

FALLUJAH, November 10 (IslamOnline.net & News Agencies) - US troops are reportedly using chemical weapons and poisonous gas in its large-scale offensive on the Iraqi resistance bastion of Fallujah, a grim reminder of Saddam Hussein’s alleged gassing of the Kurds in 1988.
“The US occupation troops are gassing resistance fighters and confronting them with internationally-banned chemical weapons,” resistance sources told Al-Quds Press Wednesday, November 10.
The fatal weapons led to the deaths of tens of innocent civilians, whose bodies litter sidewalks and streets, they added.
“They use chemical weapons out of despair and helplessness in the face of the steadfast and fierce resistance put up by Fallujah people, who drove US troops out of several districts, hoisting proudly Iraqi flags on them. Resistance has also managed to destroy and set fire to a large number of US tanks and vehicles.
“The US troops have sprayed chemical and nerve gases on resistance fighters, turning them hysteric in a heartbreaking scene,” an Iraqi doctor, who requested anonymity, told Al-Quds Press.
“Some Fallujah residents have been further burnt beyond treatment by poisonous gases,” added resistance fighters, who took part in Golan battles, northwest of Fallujah.
In August last year, the United States admitted* dropping the internationally-banned incendiary weapon of napalm on Iraq, despite earlier denials by the Pentagon that the “horrible” weapon had not been used in the three-week invasion of Iraq.
After the offensive on Iraq ended on April 9 last year, Iraqis began to complain about* unexploded cluster bombs* that still litter their cities.
Media Blackout
The sources said that the media blackout, the banning of Al-Jazeera satellite channel and subjective embedded journalists played well into the hands of the US military.
“Therefore, US troops opted for using internationally banned weapons to soften the praiseworthy resistance of Fallujah people.
“More and more, the US military edits and censors reports sent by embedded journalists to their respective newspapers and news agencies,” the sources added.
Iraqi Defense Minister Hazem Al-Shaalan had said Tuesday, November 9, would be decisive.
“Al-Shaalan declaration meant nothing but the use of chemical weapons and poisonous gases to down Fallujah fighters,” observers told Al-Quds Press.
The reported gassing stands as a grim reminder of Saddam Hussein's alleged gassing of the Kurdish community in the northern city of Halbja in 1988.

[anartgrey]

And from inside:
Also today, a major Sunni political party, the Iraqi Islamic Party, has withdrawn from the Iraqi Interim Government. "We are protesting the attack on Falluja and the injustice that is inflicted on the innocent people of the city," said Abd al-Hamid, "We cannot be part of this attack."


Abu Talat called and told me of the curfew now in Baghdad. We have to be off the streets by 9:30 pm or we will be shot on sight.
"You know Dahr, I used to stay out until 3am. Now this is our life," says Abu Talat. He is enraged. "This is some kind of freedom. Thank you, George Bush. This is our lif

[anartgrey]

interesting -- in a foreboding way -- odd in any way

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/118865_comment.php#118868

[pipntisha]

Wow...what brilliance. What factual evidence in this statement:

"I don't see why we should tax people who started from absolutely NOTHING and worked long hours, and worked smart to become millionaires. Had nothing handed to them ever, and still made something of themselves by being a bagger before saving enough money to go to college or get a better job. Dont think that most of the rich have just had money handed to them, that is not true. Some have, but most have actually worked for it. Believe me. I know."

What about those of us who also work hard all our lives and don't become millionaires? Is that because we are lazy and stupid? Are you implying we don't deserve tax cuts? Are you saying that we should adore millionaires because they embody all the qualities the rest of us poor slobs lack? That they deserve more than we do? Do you think Bush was ever a bagger in a grocery store? Do you think he became a millionaire because he worked so darn hard and got ahead?

The Republicans need to wake up and really look at what the GOP is delivering to their doorstep. Their supposed "working man" voter benefits in absolutely no way from the Republicans being in office. They don't get richer, they don't get tax breaks, they don't get anything but they sure get duped into believing the Republicans have their best interests in mind. Posts like these enforce that the propoganda machine is well oiled and churning.

Everything in this country has increased in cost since Bush has taken office -groceries, gas, utilities, you name it and I don't get tax breaks. I was one of the working poor most of my life and the worst years were spent under his daddy's administration. When I finally succeeded in my life, his son treated me to corporate layoffs and unemployment. I lost everything. Ask your corporate cronies why they don't give a crap about the working man who supports them? Ask them why they like a president who supports outsourcing, who couldn't stand up as a leader during Katrina, who spends more money on a war no one wants while his millionaire friends (and yours) get richer and we get poorer? Ask him why he shoves the "war on terror" down our throats, allies Democrats with terrorists, then goes and tries to sell our national ports to a country that has direct ties to 9/11?

Quit shooting off your mouth about stuff you know nothing about. Wake up and look at what is happening to your country. Stop being a ridiculous follower and start asking serious questions as to what you are really getting in return. You are gonna find that you've been duped and your holy corporations are ready to outsource your job to India.