[Jane of Arc]

Thelonious said to Jane of Arc:

So that is why you are holding out for the most radical progressive available ??? To me, what you say here is all the more reason to move to the center, and get a good solid practical center-left government in power. The debacle of Nader in 2000 shows me exactly why the left must be united, or we will have to live through more and more of these really tragic Wacko-Right regimes.

You say: I am "holding out for the most radical progessive available???" Huh? What? (Please forgive me fellow POL people, but Thelonious is new and I must repeat a tad of my boring story.) You're calling me a radical, when I worked for the Democratic Party for years. I was the local chairperson where I live and I worked by ass off in both 2000 and 2004. We all watched as both elections got stolen. We watched a conservative Supreme Court rule to NOT count legitimate American votes in 2000, selecting our next leader. Nader had nothing to do with losing the presidency. Absolutely nothing. Gore actually won easily when the votes were counted under the Freedom of Information Act almost 2 years later. A little story few people read on page 16 of the New York Times.

And then in 2004, after once again working my ass off and personally hearing Kerry utter the words "I promise to count every vote!" I watched in disbelief as John Kerry took a dive the day after the election with 50 million dollars in his pocket which he promised to use to make sure "every vote counts!" Lies. Kerry never showed up in Ohio to insist that the vote got recounted after endless testimonies of fraud. The old Bonesman himself didn't have his promised lawyers join the other teams of lawyers provided by the Libertarians and the Green Party.

After a lot of research ... and endless studying ... and working with voting rights groups that are both "liberal" and "conservative" and all concerned patriots ... I came to the obvious conclusion (it becomes obvious quickly) that our elections are completely fixed and for the most part we have a one party system controlled by an oligarchy. I know what simple legislation is needed to put America on the same par as say Canada. I'm waiting to see what our Democratic Congress does to restore our democratic Republic. 2008 is closing in fast and the fix is still in place.

Thelonious, I encourage you to read some of the threads on our elections and the state of the American vote on this site. And FDR ... want to give Thelonious a brief directive on where to go to investigate the background of the present American power structure? (FDR knows this stuff backwards and forwards.) And maybe you can explain the importance of the Rhodes Scholar Clinton and the candidate Obama. (If you want. Thanks. :) )

There is no "left" ... or "center" ... or "right" ... but merely different faces of the same globalist agenda run by the same undemocratic powerbrokers.
WE HAVE FIXED ELECTIONS!

And only We The People can change that ... but even first we must become aware of the problem. And that means you, Thelonious, my fellow citizen. :thumbup:

[Thelonious]

Jane,
yes you're right. I'm often writing in the wrong thread. Please accept my belated attempt to get back into the right one.
Although you make such a HUGE statement in "WE HAVE FIXED ELECTIONS!" that it will take a long long time to discuss it all.
Just reading the post above brings up about a dozen intimately related issues, so I suspect I could write about it for an hour a day for two weeks. That may not happen.
For starters I tried to throw out a small carpet of common ground. (I firmly believe in the need for paper ballots, just as you do) Thought maybe we could go from there, but....

Point 1, If I were to accept your conclusion that "WE HAVE FIXED ELECTIONS!" then it follows that Senators Gore and Kerry were not really running a campaign but flying millions of miles, making thousands of speeches, shaking tens of thousands of hands, all as a kind of show. Well-paid actors in a long running soap opera, acting 24hours a day, lying to their staffers, maybe only the wives knew. Despite everything that Gore said over the dozens of years he spent in politics, he really believed that Dubya was the best man for the job and so played the game of opponent so well. Hell that fascist conspiracy is really clever. (neither you, I, nor Jennifer can convince Joe Sixpack of this, even if it's true)

Second, If I fully believed that "WE HAVE FIXED ELECTIONS!" I would be completely demotivated. I would stop all political activity, because I would believe that it is futile. I also belive that just about everyone else would say "So, if it's all rigged, then what's the point?... hey, are the 49ers on ESPN2 tonight?"
If I asked an undecided voter to sign a pettition for paper ballots because a vast fascist conspiracy is controlling our future, that Bill Clinton is really a NeoConservative (Jennifer actually wrote that) Ms Undecided Voter will tell me to keep away, because I'm looney.

Regardless of the medium, the ballot box, pettitions, demostrations, email, you must get support from the center, otherwise you will be ignored.

[Thelonious]

Jane,
I absolutly agree with you. Paper ballots are necessary.
Do you agree with me that a Constitutional Amendment banning torture is a good idea?

[Thelonious]

Jennifer,
My question to you was:

Can you name one issue where the Democratic party has moved to the right in the last 50 years???

and you answered by telling me how your positions are to the left of the Democrats. For example, Gay Mariage. Some Democrats still don't support it. To you that makes them conservative. But 40 years ago NONE of them supported gay marriage. The mainstream of the party has been moving left constantly. You have just moved faster on many issues.

Also NOBODY voted "for the war". The bill on Capitol Hill did not declare war nor did it advocate war. The bill that you may in your ignorance be refering to authorised the president to use force if necessary. (all of those who voted on it were lied to, then lied to again six months later, when Dubya submitted his reasons why it was "necessary" to use force)
Oversimplifying this way really hurts the progressive cause. Joe SixPack says "Hell, look at them progressives. They voted fer the war too. Dubya was right. They a buncha flipfloppers" - It is simply not true but it has been repeated so often that everyone now believes it.

[-V-]

Also NOBODY voted "for the war". The bill on Capitol Hill did not declare war nor did it advocate war. The bill that you may in your ignorance be refering to authorised the president to use force if necessary. (all of those who voted on it were lied to, then lied to again six months later, when Dubya submitted his reasons why it was "necessary" to use force)
Oversimplifying this way really hurts the progressive cause. Joe SixPack says "Hell, look at them progressives. They voted fer the war too. Dubya was right. They a buncha flipfloppers" - It is simply not true but it has been repeated so often that everyone now believes it.

that BUGS THE HELL OUT OF ME TOO! They voted to give Bush the authorization to go to war if necessary. Sure, giving Bush the authority was still a spinless copout for the Dems but why they let "voted for the war" become part of the political vernacular is waaay beyond me???

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Thelonius, you said of me, "You have just moved faster on many issues," and that is true of me and those millions of us who are now Green or Natural Law.

Telonius, you said I am naive about the authorization bill to go to war in Iraq. Those of us who are Green or Natural Law were clear then and are clear now that we wanted/want peace and diplomacy. Had Greens and/or Natural Law been in power in Congress, the war would not have happened because it would not have been authorized. Had the Green and/or Natural Law Party(s) been in power in Congress, alternative, decentralized energy would have been/be pursued. Enron, Haliburton and blood for oil would not have happened and would not be happening now.

Thelonius, the Clintons are neo-conservative. Bill is a one world governmenment/New World Order guy approved at a Bilderberg meeting to run for the U.S. presidency. Bill is a Rhodes Scholar, and there is video of him using occult hand signs posted on this site. NAFTA was/is a cornerstone of the New World Order economic plan.

[Thelonious]

Jennifer,
You know who killed Kennedy, dontcha?

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Yes, as I've researched JFK's assassination, and seen events unfold for a One World Government/New World Order, now I do think I have a pretty good idea who killed JFK.

1) Secret societies and their membership today are understood better by ordinary people than at any other time in human history because of the internet and other technologies. Secret societies have had a major influence on world political, legal, economic and military events for centuries.

2) The direction of JFK's policies was not in the direction of One World Government/the New World Order.

I think the Knights Templar, or what the Knights Templar became, killed JFK, and I assure you, they are and always have been totally ruthless.

[Michael DeM]

Point 1, If I were to accept your conclusion that "WE HAVE FIXED ELECTIONS!" then it follows that Senators Gore and Kerry were not really running a campaign but flying millions of miles, making thousands of speeches, shaking tens of thousands of hands, all as a kind of show. Well-paid actors in a long running soap opera, acting 24hours a day, lying to their staffers, maybe only the wives knew. Despite everything that Gore said over the dozens of years he spent in politics, he really believed that Dubya was the best man for the job and so played the game of opponent so well. Hell that fascist conspiracy is really clever. (neither you, I, nor Jennifer can convince Joe Sixpack of this, even if it's true)

If I may say something, I'm not under the impression that most of those who believe that the 2000 and 2004 elections were stolen think that Gore and Kerry were in on it. I'm sure there are some people who believe that, but it seems to be a very small minority. I'm not getting the vibe that that was what Jane meant when she said,"We have fixed elections!" The suspicions of who would try to fix/steal elections would lie more in the direction of the companies that make the voting machines and the local, state, and federal officials who want their side to win so badly that they're willing to use dishonest methods in order to win. Do you understand?

Regardless of the medium, the ballot box, pettitions, demonstrations, email, you must get support from the center, otherwise you will be ignored.


While I can understand your desire to get support from the center to some extent, I don't quite agree with what it might imply. What I mean is, I don't think that liberals should try so hard to impress the moderates that we end up compromising or hiding our values in the process. Most American do seem to be centrist for the most part. Some of them lean a little one way or the other, and some of them lean a lot one way or the other. Everyone has his or her own story. What I'm saying is that rather than trying to appeal to everybody else by acting like them, we should use our powers of persuasion and progressive sex appeal to sway the moderates over to our side.