[Jane of Arc]

Is there more proof of God or aliens?

[-V-]

as the resident poll nitpicker i have to suggest that this poll should include "none of the above" because that is what i would have to pick. #3 is close but i can't go with "omnipotent being". Also, "God is" or "God am what am" would fit better with the question "Which statement best expresses your belief in God?"

[Wafflepudding]

I picked number one, but sort of under protest. For me it would be more like...:

God doesn't exist. I have no spiritual, material, philosophical, or logical reason or need to believe in it.

There should also be an agnostic answer:

God's existance is impossible to prove/irrelevant. God may or may not exist, either way it doesn't change anything.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

There is not only relevance, but interconections of consciousness, that once realized and entered into by free "will" (desire), become a unified conscious joining of all things to all things, to become one, suggested in the excerpts below:

http://www.paranoiamagazine.com/planetx.html

In his paper entitled "Hubble's New Runaway Planet," (www.enterprisemission.com), Richard Hoagland explains the forgotten 19th Century scientific theories of hyperdimensional physics. These theories were initially proposed over a hundred years ago by various scientists, and were updated in this Century by Faraday and Maxwell. In a nutshell, what hyperdimensional physics tells us is that three dimensional physical phenomena, perhaps including human consciousness itself, are dependent upon higher dimensional realities for their existence.

It's also interesting to note in this regard that if orbital revolution is directly related to the passage of "time," does this affect the aging process of the life forms on the planet? Could the presence of Marduk/Planet X be a possible explanation for the longer ages of the Old Testament patriarchs? Also, does "making and remaking the Earth" refer to a higher vibrational consciousness referred to as 4th dimensional consciousness? Is there then a relationship between the end of the Mayan Baktun cycle and the coming of Planet X? In any case, these bizarre "new age" concepts seem to be making more and more scientific sense.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Today I searched for and found a real, on location, Serengeti music video version of Toto's "Africa." It's pretty neat and is at the link below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D34U2NwGzB0

[Hokon Cazalet]

I am agnostic, since all main arguments for and against God seem to fail (yes you need to prove God doesn't exist if your an atheist otherwise you commit the fallacy of appeal to ignorance).

The Ontological argument = God exists by definition, no need to explain why this fails

The Cosmological = Everything has a cause, you need a first cause: God
This fails becuase it breaks the very law (causality) in order to put God in (God is an uncaused being). Also assumes that the law of causality is universal (not proven yet).

The Teleological Argument = Complex things like watches have a creator, the universe is complex, hence God exists as our creator.
This argument illicitly projects our rational nature for making order upon reality (similar to the ontological, conception-reality gap).
Also, as Hume pointed out, this doesn't prove a perfect creator, just a really smart dude.

Ok, so theism cannot be justified, can we do the reverse?

Ok it was mentioned science hasn't found God yet. This is clear case of the logical fallacy "appeal to ignorance" (plus one can make a good case science doesn't yeild many if any universal laws anyway - aka David Hume).

The primary argument against God is the Problem of Evil, this however doesn't quite work.

One - If God is a Platonic Form, then he couldn't stop evils being outside of space/time

Two - Maybe such tampering with the universe breaks it (guess what that says for Jesus thought =)

Three - This is hell, thats why we suffer, we just have had our memoires erased to make it even more hellish

It seems when we employ logic to the problem, just as many philosophers have done, the issue of God just can't be solved.

In my personal opinion, I think the problem of Evil is more compelling than the arguments for God.

[lynchbug]

I have to abstain from the poll, which is not pleasant for me. It is because of the connotation of the word "God" in the Western Mainstream Culture which is generally taken to mean one of the Abrahamaic or Semitic G_d(s). That is, generally taken to mean, the G_d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Bible, or, when speaking in English, of Allah (may he be ever praised), or further, the God of the main western religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

To vote any of the choices would not adequately communicate my experience of Deity.

The language of the poll limits me to expression which to the general reader would seem to be either confirming or denying the existence of the God of the Western Major Religions.

I am a Witch, that is, a Neo-Wiccan*, and I have experienced Deity, principally in the form of The Goddess, though of The God as well on rare occaisions.

While without any concrete artifact to bring back with me, I can attest to direct and personal experience of Deity. Additionally, were any objective observer to wish, they could likely be taught techniques and rituals by which they would have the same or nearly similar experiences, and come to the same subjective knowledge. They would, necessarily, lose their objective observer status, but would come to know.

*Neo-Wiccan denotes that my personal practice differs from British Traditional Witchcraft, that is, different than the Wicca of lineaged traditions such as the Gardenerian, Alexandrian and others, which is Oath-bound and initiatory.

[Jane of Arc]

Welcome Hokon and lynchbug! :sunny:


Thank you both for your insightful posts.

Lynchbug, I am very curious about Neo-Wiccan. Like most people in this culture I know very little on the subject and would love to be informed.

Thanks! :sunny:

Jane

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Welcome to POL lynchbug and Hokon. I am so happy each of you accepted my invitation to join us here. I am really enjoying your thoughtful posts!

Hokon, I look forward to your philosophical analysis of Evil. What proofs are there for mysticism, God?

lynchbug, you said the following:

"... I am a Witch, that is, a Neo-Wiccan*, and I have experienced Deity, principally in the form of The Goddess, though of The God as well on rare occaisions.

While without any concrete artifact to bring back with me, I can attest to direct and personal experience of Deity. Additionally, were any objective observer to wish, they could likely be taught techniques and rituals by which they would have the same or nearly similar experiences, and come to the same subjective knowledge. They would, necessarily, lose their objective observer status, but would come to know. ..."

Would you please provide examples?

[lynchbug]

Thank you for the warm welcome.

To go to Jennifer's question, and to not be too lengthy, there are certain exercises in the form of "Guided Meditations" which are generally useful for those wishing to prepare for spiritual growth as part of initiatory or self-dedicating Neo-Wiccan or simlar spiritual practice. A classsic one is an exercise whereby the leader or Guide invites the seeker(s) to imagine walking downward on a spiral staircase where each tread is colored through progressively higher colors of the light spectrum. A final suggestion is then given that a door may be found for the seeker(s) to open. Within their minds, the seekers then find and open a door.

Invariably, then each seeker who has gotten to this part of the meditation will then have a sequence of imaginations or experiences within the setting created, they will pass through the door, and for most, will find themselves outside. A choice of path will be presented them next, now "on their own" in the meditation, and no longer under the guidance of the Guide. The seeker will choose one path in favor of the other and travel it. The seeker, after some variation in their experiences along the path, will come to meet a female person. This person will utter an admonition or give germane advice to the seeker, which is very memorable.

The seeker(s) realize this has been their goal, though they were not given such instruction by the guide or leader during induction to the exercise. They choose to follow the path back to the door and reenter the building where the multi-color staircase is.

The Guide or leader recognizes the change in breathing and increased fidgeting of the bodies of the participants, and will then begin soft spoken instruction to ascend the stairs, in reverse order of the colors he or she used during the beginning of the experience. Frequently, grounding of energy, another spritual practice, is the last step of the exercise before discussion

One can speak to these seekers individually in the group, or can invite them to have free discussion amongst themselves once the complete release of the meditative state has been finished through guidance. Each will report basically similar experience, and can remember clearly and exactly the admonition or germane advice they were given. Additionally, and this will be reported by all, at some point when ascending the stair at the end of the exercise, but generally on the last three steps, yellow, orange or red, each will have the frank conclusion that the woman they met on the Path was The Goddess, The Lady.

Caveats for this are that other exercises must be completed to train for this one, do not try this at home unless a great deal of preparation in the form of earlier, simpler exercises has been completed. I think there is good guidance about this exercise in either H.Ps. Phyllis Curott's book Witchrafting or in Starhawk's Spiral Dance, but it has been a great while since I have read either.

I know Jennifer asked for examples, but as these practices are not common knoweledge, and this has grown to be lengthy already, I will stick with this one just for now. This is very repeatable across many groups who undertake this experience. While the discussion results are subjective, the experiences on the path and encounter with the woman are universally reported. Identification of the Woman as The Goddess or The Lady is consistently reported by the seekers. The Lady is another term for the Goddess, both of which are used as placeholder names for the Feminine Divine at the pre-initiatory levels of both Wiccan and Neo-Wiccan practice, and in many Classical Mysteries as well.

I have had this experience, and have made the *observations* myself which I attribute above to any sufficiently prepared groups of seekers. There are many other practices of this type, which for the uninitiated but curious person, could be tried with success. Gads, this is a long post, but, if you ever read science, 95% of the paper describes the particular experimental design and method and the remaining percent the findings and conclusions. Investigation of the numinous and ineffable seems to not at all lend itself well to the Scientific Method as we know it.

Do what we do, and experience what we experience, to know what we know. Be careful what you wish for.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

lynchbug, I touched on multidimentional consciouness/mind in a 2007 post. There is much much more to it as you show in your post. Anyone can do it. The rewards for exploring conscousness are abundant and amazing indeed!

I said, "By meditating we can project our mind out of our three dimensional surroundings and create other landscapes within our innermost thoughts.

Take a few moments to think to yourself.

Imagine a garden with a path up to a little cottage, with honeysuckle around the door and poppies growing in the garden. The sun is shining and you can feel the suns warm rays on your body.

Sit and think of that tranquil scene for a few moments.

Now, didn't you just create a three dimensional scene inside your head? But, what? Your head is only a three dimensional object - feel it with your hands.

What have you just witnessed? A three dimensional shape within a three dimensional shape. A paradox? No. Simply a projection of your mind into another dimension.

So, we human beings have the ability to think and expand our minds within and beyond interdimensionally and multidimendionally, a great and most precious gift."

[lynchbug]

Jane wanted to know a bit more about Neo-Wiccan. I will take a stab, or better a wave of the wand at it.

Neo-Wicca has arisen out of a labelling or taxonomic request now being voiced from within the community of British Traditional Witchcraft. They prefer that the word Wicca be reserved for those traditions practicing oath-bound initiatory traditions springing from the life and writings of Gerald B Gardner and his close contemporaries, and the traditions born of minor schisms therefrom.

Neo-Wicca is that non-traditional Witchcraft which is practiced here in the United States which differs greatly from the British Traditional Witchcraft. The pantheons, or spectrum of Deities worshipped by those in Neo-Wiccan groups cannot be the same as those of Wicca (BTW) as that information is oath-bound and secret to those initiatory lines, that is, the names of the God/dess(s) could not be known without those communities.

Neo-Wicca can be thought of lovely traditions of closely related practices, similar in many ways to Wicca, but which are variations on a theme outside of it. Dianic Wicca, that is, Wicca that principally or solely worships the Goddess to the exclusion of or the marginalization of The God, cannot be Wicca according to the British Traditionalists. Neither can those practices that invoke or evoke the Classical Pantheons be considered Wicca, as the BTW would have it.

So, we are basically, lovingly accomodating the wishes of those Witches directly lineaged to Gerald Gardner, considered the Founder of Modern Witchcraft, to whom all, whether Wiccan or Neo-Wiccan do owe some fealty and respect.

Basically, Neo-Wicca is a label I choose to use to quell what could become firey argument, as I am not initiated into the kind of tradition that is traceble back to Gerald Gardner.

A great deal about Gardner can be found by following this link:
http://www.geraldgardner.com/index.php

As to Wicca, or Witchcraft itself, it is an encompassing term now in the US to include a great many different traditions, covens and a diverse community of solitary practioners who worship Deity as both immanent (contained within nature en Toto) and transcendant(in heaven)(extra-dimensional) simultaneously. Generally, worship is directed towards the The Goddess and Her Consort The Horned God.

Basically, it is a religion based in the wonder of divinely ensouled creation which is both the creator and the creation, all must now politely be described as Neo-Wicca, unless a lineaged tradition traced to Gardner.

Truthfully, many of the practices diverge so widely and the pantheons and practices grown so mixed that one could perhaps consider someone building a Native American Medicine Wheel on a hilltop, and vision Quest there for the Presence of the Greek God Eros and still try to call it Wiccan practice. This would be "eclectic Neo-Wicca."

So, there has come to be quite a bit of diversity among those who are Pagans and Witches here in the United States. Much as there are approximately 632 denominations of Christian Churches, yet all are Christian, there are an uncounted number of similar traditional variances here among Pagans and its specific division Neo-Wicca and then also, Wicca itself, the British Traditional Witchcraft of lineaged Covens descended through initiation from Gerald Gardner.

Calling Down the Moon by Margot Adler makes a good treatment of this, and the Website, the Witches Voice (Witchvox) has numerous searcheable articles covering a great deal of the diveristy of Witchcraft and Paganism, and has much on this latest request from British Traditional Witchcraft on the Wicca/Neo-Wicca naming situation.
The Witches Voice can be found here:
http://www.witchvox.com/

I think I may be a little overwritten today, and I realize this reply rambles a bit, and may not address your Question in full or at all directly as you may have wished Jane, so, please, do ask for clarification or specific further information as you would please. Too many pages of prose have been given up by these semi-numb fingertips this day, and it is showing.

[Jane of Arc]

WoW lynchbug, thank you so much for taking the time & energy to provide me this information. It's very appreciated. I will look over the sites you provided carefully and thoughtfully.

We live in a patriarchal world with patriarchal governments with their patriarchal religions and patriarchal wars, it wonderful for a moment to ponder the Goddess. How different. How unique. Comforting.

I think one of my defining moments as a child was when my mother read me the gruesome and tragic accountings of a family member, a great, great, great ... grandmother of ours, who was burned at the stake as a Witch in Salem, MA. Apparently she was a very good women, who had the misfortune of loving to read and thinking for herself.

I know the patriarchal world can't continue to spin unbalanced as it is much longer without taking humanity down the certain path of annihilation. The principles of feminine energy and respect for the Earth must grow stronger and stronger and stronger.


Thanks again.
:sunny:

[-V-]

a great, great, great ... grandmother of ours, who was burned at the stake as a Witch in Salem

yes, I'm sure she was a great lady, but don't overdue it just because she's blood.

I suspected you had a little witch in you, Janey.

Good witch of the North, of course.

[lynchbug]

Jane of Arc, I am glad you found my post helpful. Yes, I myself find patriarchy a somewhat de-evolutionary and oppressive phenomenon. Jennifer has somewhere posted a list of Biblical Quotes which I came across, enumerating the status of women in Hebrew Culture as part of a discussion on marriage, I believe. Although these writings basically reduce women to chattel, in truth, Jewish scholarship considers women innately superior in Bing (spiritual intuition), and not in need of education, and formally states the G_D is neither male nor female, but contains the essence of both sexes. Regardless, the cultures which grew out of the triumvirate of faiths spawned by students of the Torah and subsequent revelation has produced a world which, until lately, has been dominated unchallenged by men.

Scripture also shows a possibility that there was a rather deliberate "rewrite" of the Torah, and one passage, although I lack my citation at this writing, warns of "the lying pen of the scribes". Most attribute this possibility to the arrival and acculturation of indo-european nomads around or during the Exodus, incorporated into Hebrew culture as the tribe of Levy. Other will explain there was at that point an extra-terrestrial influence that mandated the revisions. Even so, today in Orthodox, and some conservative synagogues, women must be on an upper balcony or separated from the men by the semi-opaque barrier, the mechitzah. This is, in part, to set apart the Jewish community from that of the Pagan, for whom sexual ritual was commonplace in worship.

In the late 19th century, women began to seek the Equality due them under the law of Nature's God/dess, and began the formation of the Suffrage Movement here in the US. Since that time, and especially during the Second World War when women, of necessity, took over formerly what was "men's work", women began to advance in stature, and life outside of housekeeping and support solely of the patriarchal culture, and began to throw of the yoke of status as chattel. A courageous nurse, Margaret Sanger, began to form a system of delivering contraception and other birth control services to women, to begin to allow women's sovereignty over their own bodies.

Curiously or coincidentally, Garner's Novel High Magic's Aid was published, soon followed by more informative writings by himself and many of his peers. This just prior to the advent of the MOD 1960's which, along with sexual freedom movements and a strong youth and anti-war movement, and other liberating social efforts including the Civil Rights movement, gave birth to the Women's Liberation Movement.

From within the consciousness raising groups of Women's Liberation, and the newly discovered or rediscovered Wiccan religion, was born the practice of Dianic Neo-Wicca. This Birth was greatly aided by the midwifery of Priestesses such as Starhawk and Z. Budapest in the United States. Women seized The Goddess with both arms and Hugged Her into their breasts, to join intensely with Her in their Souls. For many many women in those days and since, to have A Goddess to worship created liberation of the most sublime kind; spiritual liberation from patriarchal denominations which nearly vilified and demonized women in many cases.

Women had finally freed their souls from the grasp of the Patriarchy.

Many in Wicca, and Neo-Wicca as well consider Dianic or feminist Witchcraft to be inherently unbalanced as it neglects the Male energy of the God, and polarization of Deity energies is thrown off-kilter.

For myself, I prefer to rest in the Divine Spirit of the Goddess. I have had quite enough of the male, but do acknowledge that there is The Horned God, although in my eclectic tradition, he was born of necessity to the Star Goddess as a parting from her own essence, because of Her great love and Her creativity. She loved so much, that She gave a part of herself to break desire free into the Universe, so that polarization would create the filling of the void which was, at first, Purely Goddess. Soon after creation of her polarized consort and desire, The Goddess gave birth to the Universe, containing Herself in all its manifestations, and, like all live things, it continues to grow and reproduce even iinto our age. [ After Starhawk The Spiral DAnce ]

Interestingly, as a side-bar, the bad boy of Victorian counter-culturalism, Aleister Crowley, founder of the Golden Dawn schism, the Silver Star Lodge, and generally, the most hated person in all of Britain, who even went so far as to use the name"The Beast" for some of his magical shenanigans, could not countenance long at all inclusion in a Wiccan Coven, due to the fact he stated that he could not tolerate a woman (The High Priestess of the Coven) being in a position superior to himself.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Hi, lynchbug.

You said, "... Jennifer has somewhere posted a list of Biblical Quotes which I came across, enumerating the status of women in Hebrew Culture as part of a discussion on marriage, I believe. Although these writings basically reduce women to chattel, in truth, Jewish scholarship considers women innately superior in Bing (spiritual intuition), and not in need of education, and formally states the G_D is neither male nor female, but contains the essence of both sexes. Regardless, the cultures which grew out of the triumvirate of faiths spawned by students of the Torah and subsequent revelation has produced a world which, until lately, has been dominated unchallenged by men."

Yes, in reference to Gay Marriage in the "Gay Rights" room in the thread, "Is There a Biblical Basis Constitutional Amendment for Marriage Between1 Man&1 Woman?," I did post a list of Christian Bible quotations.

Christians as you know pick and choose out of the Bible what they will and what they won't believe and apply in life. Christians do not study Hebrew culture, nor do Christians feel they have any need to understand Hebrew culture. What I posted from the Christian Bible in regard to Biblical marriage is what Christians generally understand from their Bible and how they understand it.

For example, Christians love the word "abomination" as applied to gay sexual relations. Homophobic Christian fundamentalists often quote two particular verses that seem to be against gay people. These two verses, both of which appear in the book of Leviticus, are as follows:

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." (Leviticus 18:22)

and . . .

"If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13)

Christian fundamentalists use Leviticus 18:22 to justify their anti-gay prejudice. That verse says,

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination."

Perhaps you have heard some people refer to gay people as an "abomination." Christians take that idea directly from Leviticus 18:22. But did you know the Bible says that eating shrimp and lobster is an abomination?

"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)

"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination." (Leviticus 11:11)

"Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:12)

So what is wrong with eating shellfish exactly? How many Christians have eaten shellfish? Based on those Levitical scriptures, just how many Christians are likely to stop eating shellfish do you think?

"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

Imagine what would happen today if we killed every child who was disrespectful to his or her parents. Christian fundamentalists explain this verse away, saying that it is part of the Old Levitical Holiness Code and is not meant to be taken literally.

But the above verse is just a mere 3 verses before Leviticus 20:13, one of their favorite anti-gay scriptures which, of course, they do choose to apply literally.

It's just incredible, isn't it?

Christian fundamentalists change their entire methodology of scriptural interpretation when it suits their purpose, even when dealing with verses that are a just couple of sentences away from each other!

"If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people." (Leviticus 20:18)

Imagine what would happen today if we deported every man and woman who had ever had sex together while the woman was having her period.

Fundamentalist Christians decline the opportunity to take this verse literally which is merely 5 verses after Leviticus 20:13.

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45)

Did you ever wonder where racist, uneducated people in the 19th century got the idea that slaves were just property and not people with inalienable rights? Directly from the above verse.

"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." (Leviticus 19:27)

"Bible-believing" fundamentalists never preach against the evils of shaving, as they do not take this verse literally for our day. Of course, they most certainly would do so if they had a personal bias against shaving, but apparently, they do not.

"...and the swine, though it divides the hoof, having cloven hooves, yet does not chew the cud, is unclean to you." (Leviticus 11:7)

As you can see, the book of Leviticus also prohibits the eating of pork (a swine is a pig). Of course, Christian fundamentalists do not choose to use this verse to preach against eating pork. Sadly, however, they have no problem using scripture from the Bible to abuse gay, lesbian, bisexual, transsexual and transgender people. Christians pick and choose anti-gay Biblical quotations in order to bolster and support their personal prejudices, and in some cases, outright hatred toward and against gay people.

[lynchbug]

Indeed, Jennifer, it seems to be that at the root of many prejudices and persecutions lie the lack of true or effective education in concert with scriptural misinterpretations.

Roughly, most of the time our Soldiers and Marines have spent in Iraq since the President announced our mission was accomplished, has been spent trying to quell a religiously inspired civil war between Shiite and Sunni believers. Both are sects of Islam.

I also imagine that very few people in the United States, even those with degrees in History, recall that Canada was once invaded by Irish Nationalists or "Feniens", US Citizens, who launched their attack across the Niagara River into Southern Ontario after mustering in Buffalo, New York. This too was a largely religious dispute as it was anything else; a strong and violent echo of the "Troubles" in Ireland at the time.

Oddly, it seemed to catalyze the formation of the Canadian Nation, and quite truthfully, chilled USA-Canadian relations well into the early Twentieth Century.

Today, in Belfast, there are barriers in place, quite like the Berlin wall, though not as contiguous, to help prevent violent conflict where Protestant Neighborhoods brush up against Catholic Neighborhoods. Both are sects of Christianity.

I recall seeing, many years ago, Television News showing one sect of Buddhist Monks assaulting a rival sect's Monastery with automatic rifles and machine guns. I truly cannot place the location or the year, but perhaps some studious individual could find a reference.

Much wrong has been committed in the name of "right", and it will continue. At least until love can truly be found to be the common foundation of lasting peace.

Here in California, during the General Election in November, we will be faced with a Ballot measure seeking to reverse the California State legalization of marriage for everyone. A friend has suggested, and I cannot but agree, that there is no better ploy to get otherwise disaffected Conservative voters to the polling place, to aid in the election of the Republican Candidate. In a land that holds separation of Church and State to be a legal guarantee, I am sure it will still be seen that the pulpit, especially in the fundamentalist denominations, will speak long and loud on the Ballot Measure.

Jane of Arc spoke of her truly outstanding great-to-the-nth Grandmother having been Executed for the crime of Witchcraft at Salem, MA. One of my father's cousins was referred to in the family and in her town too, as "the Bad Mrs. Good", her husband having descended from one of the children orphaned by the execution by crushing of Sarah Good, also convicted of Witchcraft at Salem, although Wife of one of the Church Clerics.

Frequently, these kinds of religious based persecutions not only prey upon true numerical minorities and otherwise socially marginalized populations like homosexuals or transsexuals but on Women, even today. In Saudi Arabia, a woman has been charged and found guilty of Witchcraft and will be beheaded. A petition plea for mercy will be found addressed to HRH King Abdullah here:http://www.petitiononline.com/AIDFAWZA/petition.html

Despite the evil people do in their ignorance of their scripturally based religions, my knowledge of the existence of Deity as both immanent and transcendent gives me great hope that such horrors will eventually pass from current human society into history. I know that when I cast a spell, or when I am in worshipful High Magic as at this now just passed Full Moon, that the Power I meet, and the Power I work with is love. S/he is not love of Good nor love of Evil, but is Love. I was taught to respect this power, for it is the very energy that holds the entire Universe in tension, in a dance of desire which enables all to manifest, both the good and the bad.

I would wish that each, whether believing in Deity or not, would believe in the great motive power of Love. And to choose to do no harm.

Also, errata from my previous post to this thread! Where the word Bing is read, it should read "binah".

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Lynchbug, is the Buddhist war you were thinking of the one in Sri Lanka that was reported at the link below?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1554817/Sri-Lanka's-Buddhist-monks-are-intent-on-war.html

[lynchbug]

Thank you for the efforts Jennifer. That is not it, though... This is more of a mid-to-late 1980's story and the impression I have goes more to it having been a Korean, Inchon or Seoul kind of Buddhist. v. Buddhist sectarian strife conflict. I had my head largely full of Afghanistan at the time, although oddly, the Revolution Tigers of the Tamil Elaam were coming of intererst to me as well. Curious synchronicity that you should bring up an article on those people.

I imagine the story I am thnking of took place while this was all still DARPANET, and so, was not matter that would have travelled or been indexed on the WWW which did not exist back then.

[Magi2]

What the American media does NOT show us!

Arabs, Jews, Christians et al working for peace and love, Good as I call it............

http://www.opednews.com/articles/2/My-Talk-with-the-Saudis--a-by-Rabbi-Michael-Lern-080720-428.html

That, of course, is a vision closely aligned with ours. We do not at Tikkun or in the Network of Spiritual Progressives affirm any particular religious tradition, nor do we believe that one must be part of some religious tradition in order to deserve our respect or connection. But we do affirm that there is something in the spiritual worldview, even the "spiritual but NOT religious" worldview, that is an essential part of a fulfilled life. While that spiritual element may manifest as play, art, music, dance, or even study of the wonders of the universe as experienced through the study of science, it is an irreducible element that cannot be accessed solely by scientism (though it could be by scientific investigation). What the advanced-consciousness Muslims whose wisdom was in full flower at this conference seem to be promising us is that the coming spiritual renaissance of Islam may provide a foundation for precisely this kind of tolerant, loving, and generous form of religion that becomes a beacon for future generations who may be experiencing the crisis of spiritual emptiness of the contemporary world but are not willing to embrace fundamentalisms of any sort or give space to worldviews that do not include tolerance, mutual respect for others, and a true spirit of generosity. It may be hard for many of us to imagine a world in which Islam becomes identified with these values of love, generosity, kindness, tolerance, social justice and peace; it would certainly be an incredibly wonderful development. For those of us who despair about Christianity or Judaism having gone astray so far from the loving elements in their founders' visions that they now embody, in at least part of their practice, exactly the opposite values from those that made these religions catch fire in the hearts of their adherents (that may be what it means to see the Burning Bush), the notion that Islam might be the spark that generates a new religious revival based on mutual respect and spiritual intensity could dramatically expand our understanding of the endless potential for God to surprise us, un-do our conceptual certainties, and open our hearts to each other.

Rabbi Michael Lerner, July 17, 2008 Madrid, Spain
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http://www.tikkun.org

Rabbi Michael Lerner is editor of Tikkun and national chair of the Tikkun Community/ Network of Spiritual Progressives. People are invited to subscribe to Tikkun magazine or join the interfaith organization the Network of Spiritual Progressives-- "both of which can be done by going to www.tikkun.org



This article is worthy of a full read....................

:thumbup:

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Oh, I love your post Maji! What a truly wonderful world this would be, if only ...

[DLWet]

Is there more proof of God or aliens?
oye, where to start?

The existence of a personal covenantal God that seeks reconciliation with and among humanity is the real issue, not whether "God" exists....

as far as Xty goes, I agree w. Paul's description of its distinctives during his time in Athens. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2017:16-34;&version=31; is such that they cd be described as like hypotheses whose truth value cannot be proven in this lifetime. I believe that apologetic attempts to prove God's existence are a hangover from the Constantinization of Christianity (http://sodsbrood.com/antimani/2005/05/17/how-would-jesus-communicate/) in its 4th ctry, which imho was an abomination for a movement led by one who demonstrated that real change comes from self-sacrificial love without hypocripsy, not the capture of the state by the "right" people(which biblical scholars agree was the main alternative for Jesus to going on the cross, to become a zealot leading his fellow Jews to victory over their Roman oppressors). The desire to prove God's existence comes from the belief that Christianity or its rival Deism could lay the basis for a country's political unity. Christianity was never supposed to become associated with a given culture, but rather multinational sets of cultural changers, for after all to declare Christ as Lord in 1st ctry CE was to also imply that Caesar was not Lord and just a man. Christianity had the ingenious strategy of subverting the dominant political/theological ideology while being the best citizens possible within the Roman Empire.

dlw

dlw