[halg]

What are the similarities and differences between these 2 philosophies? *

It seems to me, at least, that the results have been about the same in many ways:**Loss of personal liberties, never-ending consolidation of political and economic power, irrational use of force resulting in mass deaths and cultural ruin.

If this has already been asked, just ignore. *Thanks.

[Wafflepudding]

Well that's easy, the difference is the criteria for discrimination. Neo-nazism is still about races, and to a lesser extent religion and political ideology.

Neo-conservatism discriminates on the basis of economic class, instead of jews it's the muslims and instead of communists... no actually they hate communists too. Also, they don't say Heil Reagan :p

And unfortunately for us, I don't think Dubya will have the decency to bite a cyanide capsule and shoot himself on the head while at camp david.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

I wonder if people die from too many shots to the foot?

[Wafflepudding]

If that was the case, Donald Rumsfeld would have died back in 2004, unfortunately he's still at large. Maybe if they'd used depleted uranium slugs...

Which reminds me, since DU is low-level waste, why all the talk about it being another form of "nuclear warfare"? It sounds silly and sensasionalistic to me. The stuff IS very poisonus and carcinogenic, but so are PCBs and other nasty chemicals that form when AFVs are blown up. Tungsten is FAR more expensive, we need to do something with the massive amounts of DU stockpiled, and DU performs much better in AT munitions than the rival tungsten carbide alloys.

It should just never be used near civilians. In fact, no kind of heavy weaponry should be used in house-to-house combat where civilians are in proximity. DU, steel, tungsten, it makes no difference, regardless of the composition of the round, airstrikes, kinetic energy penetrators and incendiaries should NOT BE USED IN URBAN AREAS.

[halg]

It should just never be used near civilians. In fact, no kind of heavy weaponry should be used in house-to-house combat where civilians are in proximity. DU, steel, tungsten, it makes no difference, regardless of the composition of the round, airstrikes, kinetic energy penetrators and incendiaries should NOT BE USED IN URBAN AREAS.

I agree, but I won't stop there. *I will go so far as to say let's not use any weapons of any type near civilians or anyone else. *Remember, in the end these are all PEOPLE we are lobbing this shit at, and we only have one planet.

I am a Green and I am not very intested in arguing about the best way of all the different, clever ways we can harm and destroy people and societies. *Let's stop ALL war now!

Maybe a more effective solution is to round up all the Neo-Cons or Neo-Nazis (same results) and send them on a one-way trip to Iraq. *We will time them to see how long it takes for them to realize how insane and cruel this behavior is.

-Hal G.

[Jane of Arc]

Excellent conclusion Hal and WafflePotato!!! :thumbup:

[FDRfollower]

Shakespeare on the neo-cons. I was reading Plutarchs Lives (yes, I know, ProudGoopy is going to complain of me studying all this ICKY history) and decided to see how Will dealt with the subject. Already in the beginning, is interesting situations! Man, William is a genius!

Coriolanus Act 1 scene 1 (addressing a rabble)

Marcius (after entering)
He that will give good words to thee will flatter
Beneath abhorring. What would you have, you curs,
That like nor peace nor war? the one affrights you,
The other makes you proud. He that trusts to you,
Where he should find you liions, finds you hares,
Where foxes, geese: you are no surer, no,
Than is the coal of fire upon the ice,
Or hailstone in the sun. Your virtue is
to make him worthy whose offence subdues him
And curse that justice did it. Who deserves greatness
Deserves your hate; and your affections are
A sick man's appetite, who desires most that
Which would increase his evil. He that depends
Upon your favours swims with fins of lead
And hews down oaks with rushes. Hang ye! Trust ye?
With every minute you do change a mind,
And call him noble that was now your hate,
Him vile that was your garland. What's the matter,
That in these several places of the city
You cry against the noble senate, who,
Under the gods, keep you in awe, which else
Would feed on one another? What's their seeking?

[ProudGOP]

I agree, but I won't stop there. *I will go so far as to say let's not use any weapons of any type near civilians or anyone else.

Good Plan. Your a genius !!!!!

*Let's stop ALL war now!

Another great Idea!!!!!! Tell the radical muslim terrorists to stop killing American civillians. You guys all bitch and moan about the "innocent" Iraqis. What about Amercan citizens? Do you care about them?

Maybe a more effective solution is to round up all the Neo-Cons or Neo-Nazis (same results) and send them on a one-way trip to Iraq. *We will time them to see how long it takes for them to realize how insane and cruel this behavior is.

Here is a better idea. Split the United States in half. All liberals on the west coast. Let's see how long until your attacked. I'd give it a week. How would you defend yourselves? You won't use weapons on another human being and you think all wars should be stopped. Terrorists would be salivating. Stop living in fantasy land.

Excellent conclusion Hal and WafflePotato!!!

What part was excellent Jane?

Shakespeare on the neo-cons. I was reading Plutarchs Lives (yes, I know, ProudGoopy is going to complain of me studying all this ICKY history)

There's a difference between "studying" history and hiding behind other people's quotes and writings. Try answering for yourself. Just because you quote shakespear does not make your answer correct. I know history also. All the liberals (like Halg) who are against war, what about WWII? Where would we be today if we had not fought? What about the civil war? The revolutionary war? Imagine if people like Halg were in control then. Where would we be?

[MAGI]

There's a difference between "studying" history and hiding behind other people's quotes and writings. Try answering for yourself. Just because you quote shakespear does not make your answer correct. I know history also. All the liberals (like Halg) who are against war, what about WWII? Where would we be today if we had not fought? What about the civil war? The revolutionary war? Imagine if people like Halg were in control then. Where would we be?

There is ONE Great Problem, P GOP,
This is not and never has been, a "War".
This was an Illegal Manipulated Pre-emptive Invasion of Iraq for OIL!

Read the thread "It's The Oil, Stupid" for enlightment on that subject. It's ALL there.

See the Weinberger/Powell Doctrine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weinberger_Doctrine

here's more..........
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=The+Powell+Doctrine&btnG=Google+Search

It is a planned OCCUPATION and most of our troops NOW KNOW IT! They know they are target practice for insurgent groups.....on our side in daylight but don't dare turn your back! .....................

We are engaged in The Iraqi Civil War now with old religious groops fighting each other in the name Of God......Allah............. (fanatics), and Americans are the most hated of all, NOW, by these groups.

http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/linkframe.php?linkid=41036

Army of Dude
Reporting On Truth, Justice And The American Way Of War

Saturday, August 18, 2007
Stupid Shit of The Deployment Awards!

At the end of our fifteen month deployment, it seemed fitting to resurrect the Stupid Shit series started over a year ago under the gray Washington sky. I envisioned a weekly edition but quickly realized a deployment is a constant parade of ridiculous, asinine, over the top moments that are too numerous to keep track of, and much too difficult to explain in full.

These entries come to you in a fury of writing during the few precious days we have inside the wire. Ever since Baghdad we’ve left the comfort and safety of our huge bases to venture out into the city for as little as two or as much as eight days at a time. There is a direct correlation between the amount of operation activity and the amount of stupid shit that gets piled onto us. As the workload increases, so does the shit, eloquently described as stupid here on out.

Most of the candidates for Stupid Shit of The Deployment, then, come from our stay here in Baqubah. Our operation tempo went from back breaking in Baghdad to soul crushing in Diyala Province. Gone were the days of adequate rest for the trucks and ourselves. Often we’d spend five days out in an Iraqi’s house, sleeping on the roof with lice infested mats and pillows, only to come in for a scant few hours for fuel and a shower (if time permitted). For reasons unknown to anyone, we’d arrive as the chow hall was closing and everyone would make a mad dash for the scraps left over. Stupid, indeed.

So without further ado, the nominees for Stupid Shit of The Deployment:

Working with 1920s – A Sunni insurgent group we’ve been battling for months, responsible for the death of my friend and numerous attacks, agreed to fight Al Qaeda alongside us. Since then, they’ve grown into a much more organized, lethal force. They use this organization to steal cars and intimidate and torture the local population, or anyone they accuse of being linked to Al Qaeda. The Gestapo of the 21st century, sanctioned by the United States Army.

The Surge – The beefing up of ground forces in Iraq at the beginning of the year, started by the 82nd Airborne. Unit deployments were moved up several months to maintain a higher level of boots on the ground to quell the Baghdad situation. What most don’t realize is the amount of actual fighting troops in a brigade, something in the area of 2,000 soldiers in a brigade of 5,000 depending on what unit it is. So for every 2,000 fighters, there are 3,000 pencil pushers sucking up resources in every brigade that was surged. A logistical nightmare that, surprise, failed miserably. The increase of troops in Baghdad pushed the insurgents to rural areas (like Diyala), hence our move here in March. The surge was nothing more than a thorn in the side of nomadic fighters having to move thirty five miles while the generals watched Baghdad with stubborn eyes.

skip



the rest:
http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/linkframe.php?linkid=41036

[Michael DeM]

Good Plan. Your a genius !!!!!

He is a genius. Right on Halg.

Another great Idea!!!!!! Tell the radical muslim terrorists to stop killing American civillians. You guys all bitch and moan about the "innocent" Iraqis. What about Amercan citizens? Do you care about them?

Of course we care about American citizens. I want Americans to be safe just as much as you do. Let me ask you something. Do you regard the lives of Iraqi civilians to be less valuable than the lives of Americans?

There's a difference between "studying" history and hiding behind other people's quotes and writings. Try answering for yourself. Just because you quote shakespear does not make your answer correct. I know history also. All the liberals (like Halg) who are against war, what about WWII? Where would we be today if we had not fought? What about the civil war? The revolutionary war? Imagine if people like Halg were in control then. Where would we be?

I would argue that there's a difference between wanting to end all war and being a pacifist. People like Halg know what the nature of war really is. While I can't speak for everybody here, I personally think that WWII, Civil War, and Revolutionary War were justified. However, they all had terrible consequences in terms of the toll taken on human life. That's why I decided that war, while perhaps justified in a few extreme circumstances, needs to be avoided as much as humanely possible and that steps must be taken for peace instead. Furthermore, nations need to pursue diplomacy with the hope that maybe war can become a thing of the past. As for terrorism, well, you've got to cut it off at the roots. Bombs aren't going to achieve that goal.

[Thelonious]

Omylem jsem tento přizpěvek dál do jiného threadu. mělo byt tu. zda to čtete podruhé se omlouvám......

Do you regard the lives of Iraqi civilians to be less valuable than the lives of Americans?


Good question. I wish more Americans would ask it much more often. Like everyday when they're watching the news, instead of once every ten years when some brother-in-law gets philosophical.

I listen to Air America quite a bit. They're quite progressive there. But you STILL constantly hear the phrase "American Lives" "The Lives of Americans" not to mention the death.
the US media EVERY DAY puts out death counts of Americans. They list the names of the Americans. The thousands of Iraqis killed also get mentioned... but on page 27 once a month.

The fact is that for most Americans subconsiously American life is FAR more important than any other. When you hear on the news "3214 American casualties" how many of you say "Yeah, and how many Iraqis? How many Afganis? How many Palestinians?"

A person who actually asks and answers these questions quickly realizes that the 3000 people killed on 9-11 is actually an insignificant number. Any Russian will tell you that 10 million of them were killed in the Great Patriotic War against Nazi Germany. Any Arab will tell you that when the barbarian cannibals invaded from the north west they slaughtered all 30,000 inhabitants of the City of Peace. (I grew up in the Christian tradition and so my family called the barbarians "crusaders" and used the Hebrew version of the name City of Peace, Jerusalem)

The Arab world knows very very well how many Palestinians have been killed in the last years by the Israelis. Al Jazeera reports every day on the dead Iraqis and interviews the refugees who have lost everything and are now really angry, just waiting for someone to give them a gun or a bomb or a rocket. How long before someone gives them the gun. (a few weeks or months i'd say). They say that 10 percent of the Iraqi population is now refugees. And Americans are waiting for a report on "Progress" in Iraq from Gen Petraeus?????? How many Iraqi refugees have gone back to their homes since the surge began? None. How many Iraqis have been forced from their homes since the surge began? (I do not know the answer to this, but it is in the thousands)

If you possibly can, watch Al Jazeera on satelite. Or go to their web site and read. It is one media source which is NOT completely obsesed with American Life. There will be a different perspective there. A perspective which when listened to, can support mutual understanding in a practical and concrete way (something that empty calls for world peace cannot)

The human suffering on 9-11 was tiny on a world scale. Once Americans lose there obsession with it, they will be much better able to deal with the world on a reasonable basis.

[Wafflepudding]

Good Plan. Your a genius !!!!! Another great Idea!!!!!! Tell the radical muslim terrorists to stop killing American civillians. You guys all bitch and moan about the "innocent" Iraqis. What about Amercan citizens? Do you care about them?

I agree that it's wishful thinking, and we do need those nukes, warthogs, M249s, F15 fighters, B-52's and M1A2 tanks. We also need those depleted uranium penetrators and 40mm autocannon rounds, hell I'd even argue in favor of napalm (nothing clears a building faster than fiery, sticky gunk), but you're missing my (at least mine) point: having the deadliest armament and having carte blanche to use it regardless of collateral damage are two different things.

Now, warfare 101: In an occupation the best way to end insurgencies quickly is to get the local populations on your side. Paraphrasing the communist guerrillas of the past century, irregular forces need the support of the native populace to survive and win. Every time we cause collateral damage we raise support for the insurgents/terrorists/whatever you wanna call them.

This (I think) is not the first time I've commented this to you. Kindly explain to me why you duck the issue. The issue here being how pouring gasoline in the fires is helping us in the long (or any kind of) run. Lets take WW2 since you die hard conservatives love it so much.

After winning WW2 we rebuilt the economies of the nations we defeated, we occupied them in an orderly and humane fashion, we treated them with respect and let them develop their own governments (instead of installing puppets). The people of those countries, in result, had a positive (or at least neutral) image of our soldiers. We have done almost the polar opposite in Iraq. Explain to me how this is a good idea.

In short, in case you're too lazy to bother reading:

Why is fighting a war boneheadedly the only (and correct) alternative to not fighting at all? Wouldn't it be better to actually do it RIGHT?

And by the way, I kinda agree there: I know my share of quotes as well but personally, I feel it's sort of an intellectual penis measuring contest. Kind of inane too, just say what you want to say, who cares about who said it before you? thoughts and ideas are important (or profoundly retarded) on their own merit, regardless of the source.

[ProudGOP]

After winning WW2 we rebuilt the economies of the nations we defeated, we occupied them in an orderly and humane fashion, we treated them with respect and let them develop their own governments (instead of installing puppets). The people of those countries, in result, had a positive (or at least neutral) image of our soldiers. We have done almost the polar opposite in Iraq. Explain to me how this is a good idea.

After WWII there were no terrorists to deal with. Once the country was defeated they all fell in line. In the case of Iraq, terrorists are disguised as civillians. The TRUE Iraqi civillian DOES have a positive image of the American soldier. You just don't know that because you listen to Air America and CNN.

Why is fighting a war boneheadedly the only (and correct) alternative to not fighting at all? Wouldn't it be better to actually do it RIGHT?

Define "right" Oh wise one !!!!!

And by the way, I kinda agree there: I know my share of quotes as well but personally, I feel it's sort of an intellectual penis measuring contest. Kind of inane too, just say what you want to say, who cares about who said it before you? thoughts and ideas are important (or profoundly retarded) on their own merit, regardless of the source.

I have no idea what the hell your talking about with this one !!!!!

Now, warfare 101: In an occupation the best way to end insurgencies quickly is to get the local populations on your side

You seem to have all the answers Waffle. Tell me how YOU would do this.

Your name suits you. You seem to take both sides of every argument.
You claim to be neutral. My money says you voted for Clinton and Kerry !!!!!

[FDRfollower]

There's a difference between "studying" history and hiding behind other people's quotes and writings. Try answering for yourself. Just because you quote shakespear does not make your answer correct. I know history also. All the liberals (like Halg) who are against war, what about WWII? Where would we be today if we had not fought? What about the civil war? The revolutionary war? Imagine if people like Halg were in control then. Where would we be?

See, I told you he would bitch, moan, and complain. :laughing:

Centuries after you're nothing but dust, people will be putting on Shakespeare plays and reading his writings because he has a very sharp understanding of what makes people tick, and why societies behave the way they do.

You'll just be a footnote in the annals of why the US became the toilet bowl of history.

Does it enrage you (like everything else it seems) that guys long dead, know how you think?

@WaffleTapioca :rolling: your contest annalogy was TOO funny.

@Thelonius Good point my friend. :thumbup:

[JamesP]

After WWII there were no terrorists to deal with. Once the country was defeated they all fell in line. In the case of Iraq, terrorists are disguised as civillians. The TRUE Iraqi civillian DOES have a positive image of the American soldier.


Proud One:

I think it should be acknowledged just how polite, accommodating and patient the POL gang here is in engaging you.

Inane statements like the one above that tries to assert that the existence of the "scary, scary terrorists" justifies all blunders, errors, mis-adventures and moral lapses of the Bush administration are difficult to digest for moral, intelligent and rational homo-sapiens.

Many of us just aren't that afraid of the terrorists.
They've obviously and sadly "terrorized" you to the point that you've surrendered your logic, your money (tax dollars wasted in Iraq), your humanity and your soul.

Oh, what a few dark skinned, arab guys with box-cutters can accomplish when you're pampered, isolated and privileged and you lack courage.

And: "the true Iraqi civilian does have a positive image of the American soldier" !!! WOW! I don't think even Dick Cheney would put forth such a blatently untrue statement today - and he's the King of untrue. Every credible news agency and poll in the world disagree - even Fox News doesn't make such a claim. We've killed so many Iraqi's and turned life in their country from bad to much, much worse - with no end in sight.

Like your hero Bush, you either haven't a clue - or you are a blatant liar - and yet we tolerate you.

Liberals are truly compassionate and kind. Bless you. :D

[Wafflepudding]

After WWII there were no terrorists to deal with. Once the country was defeated they all fell in line. In the case of Iraq, terrorists are disguised as civillians. The TRUE Iraqi civillian DOES have a positive image of the American soldier. You just don't know that because you listen to Air America and CNN. Define "right" Oh wise one !!!!!

Around three thousand American lives were lost in 9/11 and we were raging and out for blood. By all accounts the Iraqi civilian casualties have been way higher. Imagine, if you will, what you would feel like with a foreign army occupying America (regardless of the cause) and collateral damage mounting every passing day.

I have to concede though, that it is simply my opinion when I say no sane human being likes living under the shadow of combat aircraft and the constant threat of smart munitions straying off course and killing you or your family while in your home, which has happened in Iraq.

I have no idea what the hell your talking about with this one !!!!!
I'm honestly surprised. I'm against unnecesary quotes.


You seem to have all the answers Waffle. Tell me how YOU would do this.

Your name suits you. You seem to take both sides of every argument.
You claim to be neutral. My money says you voted for Clinton and Kerry !!!!!

I'd actually take you up on that wager, easiest money I could ever make, but my money says you wouldn't actually pay me. You're wrong, I'm 20, there's no way I could have voted for Clinton. And I don't like John "I'm the other corporate puppet" Kerry either.

Last time I checked, taking elements from both sides of the argument (or neither) was basically what "neutral" meant.

You wanna know what I am? I am my own man. I'm someone who's fed up with Republicans and Democrats. I'm the American that doesn't buy your rethoric, or theirs. The one that doesn't vote because no matter what he picks, he's geting a raw deal.

I'm the kind of American that's sick of hearing "liberal" "lets give everyone a flower and fight war with peaceful resistance" solutions. FDR was a liberal and he still damn well got us into WW2 because it was the right thing to do (he'd been trying to do it before Pearl Harbor), not because it was popular or because Germany was an immediate threat to us. I'm sick of hearing about "dialogue" when genocide is being commited because the damn moron in office is quaking on his boots because his approval rating might suffer. I'm sick of faux humanitarianism that causes more suffering than it prevents.

And sick of conservative "lets go back to imperialism" solutions. I don't want slow genocide commited in my name, or puppet governments installed in the name of democracy, at the cost of American and foreign civilian casualties. I'm actually repulsed by the notion that every other day, an Iraqi family that had nothing to do with 9/11 or terrorists cowers in fear of being killed by our soldiers, or by the terrorists that were NOT in Iraq BEFORE we came in. I'm sick of the average conservative rationalizing every damn weak point Bush has, if Bill Clinton screwed up every fifth word he uttered you'd call him a moron, why should you treat Bush differently? I'd talk about a Republican president I liked but other than Lincoln I can't think of any.

I'm a cynic, pure and simple. I see politicians for what they are, people who are looking out for people who they owe favors to. I follow the money, not the rethoric. I know that both Republicans and Democrats with any real power are full of shit. And I certainly know that regardless of affiliation, Kerry and Bush are more alike each other than you or I. Neither of them's going to war, neither of them will suffer if they screw up, and neither of them actually gives a rats ass what happens to us because we're at the bottom of the social pyramid.

But I'm also optimist. I believe things might improve if we actually get off our collective asses. No rich, egotistical member of the elite is looking out for you. Not in the Democratic party, and certainly not in the Republican party.

No. I remember being 14 and thinking "Why the hell did we let all those people in Somalia, Rwanda and the Balkans be slaughtered like cattle?", and learning to hate the Democrats.

Then reading about Nixon, Reagan and the Iran-Contra scandal, and afterwards spending my teens in the wake of 9/11 and learning to hate the Republicans.

In a few, emotional words, that although might offend some (I'm talking about the people here that I appreciate, you know who you are, the rest of you feel free to be as insulted as possible). are simply my feelings I would rather dive into the ocean and try to swim ashore on my own than be in either of your boats.

[Thelonious]

The TRUE Iraqi civillian DOES have a positive image of the American soldier.

LOL!!!! LMAO!!! This is the greatest statement since Dubya claimed "Absolutely we're winning!" Didn't have a shread of evidence that it was true, but that never bothered the wacko right. Rush Limbaugh proved that you need No evidence to make any sort of claim as long as people want to hear it.

Maybe I'm strange. But the idea of "True" citizen, "Real Americans", or anything of the sort makes me doubt that the writer knows what he is saying. "Good Americans oppose illegal immigration" and such. It's a lot of advertising. No substance.

And Mr ProudGOP, to use a tactic of yours...
The TRUE Iraqi civillian DOES have a positive image of the American soldier.

yeah, how do you know, mr I-have-personally-interviewed-millions-of-Iraqis-and-they-all-love-our-troops ???

Oh, yes. Fux News told you.... or was it Rush?

[Thelonious]

You wanna know what I am? I am my own man. I'm someone who's fed up with Republicans and Democrats. I'm the American that doesn't buy your rethoric, or theirs. The one that doesn't vote because no matter what he picks, he's geting a raw deal.


For the sake of Argument, let's say that Bill Clinton was the Corporate Whore that Jane and Magi want to claim he was.
Who was better, Clinton or Dubya? There is a competence issue as well here. Dubya is simply not up to the job. We knew he wasn't before the 2000 election. Dubya has failed at everything. Clinton took corporate cash and doled out some favours, sure. He didn't start any wars that he couldn't finish. If we are going to have a Corporate whore anyway, then at least let's get one who has a BRAIN! The USA needs people who think to vote for the least bad candidate. You do not do so, and have failed your country.
I voted for Al Gore in 2000. And I am proud of it. Have you read the speech he made 5 months before the invasion of Iraq?? He listed all the reasons why he would not invade. Guess what? The chaos, the mayhem, the civil strife he predicted in that speech are actually happening now.
I do not and will not belive that "Politicians are all the same". [on a certain level they are. on other important levels they are totoally different] All the Democratic candidates want to close Guantanamo. All the Republicans want to expand it. Hmmmmm. That is a hell of an important difference to me.
What would Al Gore have done during Katrina??? Would Gore have wasted HALF A TRILLION dollars in order to create a failed state in the most oil rich region of the world?!?!?!?!?!? We know that he would not. He made public statements opposing the war, before the war. Would Al Gore have spent some of the resulting HALF A TRILLION dollars on relief for the victims of Katrina??? Reconstruction of New Orleans?? Quite likely I'd say.
How many people said that Franklin Roosvelt was a pampered rich kid corporate whore?? How many people said that about LBJ? LBJ was a corporate whore to be sure. A total Machiavellian politics horse-trading master. Did he do any good for America??? [I kinda like the civil rights act myself. Hmmmm.]
Don't get me wrong. I'm happy that there is debate among democrats about taking corporate money. But I cannot and will not completely write off a PERSON [yes, politicians are people] because he or she is trying to do what it takes to get to the position where they can make a difference.
Your swimming for shore analogy is nice. I have a different one.
If you don't like any of the horses in a race fine. But putting your mouse on the track will make no difference to anybody. [sorry if that is cynical. i think it is realistic]

[Thelonious]

You'll just be a footnote in the annals of why the US became the toilet bowl of history.

Quoting great thinkers can help to express powerful thoughts and in context can support a coherent argument. I have yet to see a coherent argument from FDRfollower. In fact I don't really know his position on anything. He only quotes and throws around some ad hominem like the example above. [Why he thinks the US became or will become the toilet bowl of history I do not know. In fact I don't even know what "the toilet bowl of history" is]

I have no doubt that the great thinkers including Shakespeare knew how I think. That fascinates me. I highly doubt however that FDRfollower knows how I think. :)

[Wafflepudding]

He didn't start any wars that he couldn't finish. If we are going to have a Corporate whore anyway, then at least let's get one who has a BRAIN! The USA needs people who think to vote for the least bad candidate. You do not do so, and have failed your country.

He bombed Iraq to distract people from the Lewinsky scandals. And indeed he didn't "start any wars" at all, he let millions of people get slaughtered because it wasn't our problem, and it would have been "risky".

Granted, we didn't pull the trigger, but I consider that passive murder on the grounds of cowardice, (I might get impeached), cultural egocentrism, (the lives of a few dozen troops are more important than the lives of thousands of foreigners) and materialism (it's gonna be expensive). Clinton didn't drop the "world police" charade we adopted since the cold war (and he had opportunity to do so), and didn't commit us to actually playing the part either. We went along and blabbed endlessly on the UN but did nothing beyond that. That's not great leadership, that's covering your ass.

I understand why you'd be against a costly foreign intervention, really, I do. But I think it would have been relatively more morally correct to interviene in many of the situations where we didn't during the Clinton years. Looking at the cost in human lives, I'd hardly be proud of Clinton's pacifism.

That's the way I look at it and when you look at the values behind the choice, it's not really all that different from the values (or lack thereof) that got us into Operation: Iraqi FUBAR.

All the Democratic candidates want to close Guantanamo. All the Republicans want to expand it. Hmmmmm. That is a hell of an important difference to me.

Clinton didn't close it and he had 8 years to do so. Say that the next democratic president closes Guantanamo, what's the difference? they can (and will) open a new camp elsewhere. We have tons of places available for that. And we've been detaining people for years before 9/11, it's how counter-intelligence works. We've just never been so brutal, dumb and ham-fisted about it.

How many people said that Franklin Roosvelt was a pampered rich kid corporate whore?? How many people said that about LBJ? LBJ was a corporate whore to be sure. A total Machiavellian politics horse-trading master. Did he do any good for America??? [I kinda like the civil rights act myself. Hmmmm.]

The civil rights act came more or less as a consequence of the activism of the decade. In my humble opinion, LBJ was just there to sign the bill, but it would have happened regardless of the person in the white house at the time simply because of the civil unrest that would have resulted otherwise. I thank MLK for that bill, not LBJ. LBJ also escalated the Vietnam war, we all know how that ended up.

I agree about Gore, but again, I was too young to have voted in that election. I'm talking about the now. And let me put it this way, if it comes down to McCain and Hillary (and I'm positive it will), I would vote for Hillary solely on the grounds that the alternative is McCain. I just wouldn't be stupid enough to brag about "being part of the solution" or be proud for picking to shoot myself in the foot rather than the heart.

But I cannot and will not completely write off a PERSON [yes, politicians are people] because he or she is trying to do what it takes to get to the position where they can make a difference.

The whole point is that by doing "what it takes", more often than not you give up the ability to make a difference and induce conflicts of interest.

If you don't like any of the horses in a race fine. But putting your mouse on the track will make no difference to anybody. [sorry if that is cynical. i think it is realistic]

I don't get it.

[ProudGOP]

See, I told you he would bitch, moan, and complain.

Just pointing out the obvious. Which is you NEVER answer for yourself. You hide behind some acient quote.

Many of us just aren't that afraid of the terrorists.
They've obviously and sadly "terrorized" you to the point that you've surrendered your logic, your money (tax dollars wasted in Iraq), your humanity and your soul.

James, I am not "afraid" of terrorists. I am just well aware that they DO actually exist and DO wish America harm. As for liberals, you can't be "afraid" of something you don't believe exists. fdr doesn't think radical muslim males between the ages of 25-35 are responsible for attacks against American interests. I'm a "racist" according to him for thinking this. Maybe in about 20 years fdr can read in a history book about the attacks and he'll realize it was muslims with "brown" skin.

Oh, what a few dark skinned, arab guys with box-cutters can accomplish when you're pampered, isolated and privileged and you lack courage.

A person who actually asks and answers these questions quickly realizes that the 3000 people killed on 9-11 is actually an insignificant number

9/11 obviously did not affect Thelonious or James personally. What a cavalier attitude towards 3000 innocent Americans who lost their lives.
Thelonious, what if the death toll was only 10, yet all ten were YOUR family members. Would it still be "insignificant"????
I'll say it again, liberals care more for the "innocent" Iraqis than for Americans. Yet you guys wonder why I'm "angry"!!!! It is statements like this that makes me hate liberals.

I'm the American that doesn't buy your rethoric, or theirs. The one that doesn't vote because no matter what he picks, he's geting a raw deal.

Amazing waffle, You come on here and bitch and moan. You preach and belittle, yet you don't excercise your right to vote? A right that Americans died for !!!!! I shouldn't be surprised, your barely out of diapers. At least there's hope for you, If you still think like a liberal in 10 years then there's a problem.

Then reading about Nixon, Reagan and the Iran-Contra scandal, and afterwards spending my teens in the wake of 9/11 and learning to hate the Republicans.

Your a young fdr. Getting all your info from books. All you need now is to start drinking heavily, don't work and live in mom & dad's basement.
Why would you hate the Republicans? For defending ourselves? For going on the offensive? For being pro-active instead of re-active?
And waffle, you didn't answer the question (liberal move). Tell me how you would fight this war the "right" way.


I would rather dive into the ocean and try to swim ashore on my own than be in either of your boats.

We finally agree. I'd rather you try to swim also.

And Mr ProudGOP, to use a tactic of yours...

Thelonius, What "tactic"? Are you referring to? The quotes, that everyone on here uses?

yeah, how do you know, mr I-have-personally-interviewed-millions-of-Iraqis-and-they-all-love-our-troops ???

Oh, yes. Fux News told you.... or was it Rush?

I didn't realize I needed to back my statements up with credible facts. Is that something reserved only for Republicans on this site? Do the liberals here KNOW for a fact that the Iraqi people hate Americans? Or are they parroting what they here from the liberal media?

Quoting great thinkers can help to express powerful thoughts and in context can support a coherent argument. I have yet to see a coherent argument from FDRfollower. In fact I don't really know his position on anything. He only quotes and throws around some ad hominem like the example above. [Why he thinks the US became or will become the toilet bowl of history I do not know. In fact I don't even know what "the toilet bowl of history" is]

I have no doubt that the great thinkers including Shakespeare knew how I think. That fascinates me. I highly doubt however that FDRfollower knows how I think.

Couldn't agree more!!!!!!! fdr HATES America, but won't admit it.

[Wafflepudding]

9/11 obviously did not affect Thelonious or James personally. What a cavalier attitude towards 3000 innocent Americans who lost their lives.
Thelonious, what if the death toll was only 10, yet all ten were YOUR family members. Would it still be "insignificant"????
I'll say it again, liberals care more for the "innocent" Iraqis than for Americans. Yet you guys wonder why I'm "angry"!!!! It is statements like this that makes me hate liberals.

And apparently you keep thing those 3000 lives are orders of magnitude more valuable than a few hundred thousand lives from people from other countries, which is why you come out as a fascist to anyone slighty to the left of Ann Coulter.

Amazing waffle, You come on here and bitch and moan. You preach and belittle, yet you don't excercise your right to vote? A right that Americans died for !!!!! I shouldn't be surprised, your barely out of diapers. At least there's hope for you, If you still think like a liberal in 10 years then there's a problem.

Your a young fdr. Getting all your info from books. All you need now is to start drinking heavily, don't work and live in mom & dad's basement.
Why would you hate the Republicans? For defending ourselves? For going on the offensive? For being pro-active instead of re-active?
And waffle, you didn't answer the question (liberal move). Tell me how you would fight this war the "right" way.


Give me a choice between dumbass Kerry and dumbass Bush and I might have actually had a choice on who to vote for.

At this point, I'm not even mad anymore, I'm laughing hysterically. The notion that somehow reading books is wrong is so profoundly stupid I have to wonder if you're actually taking it seriously. Because, as we all know, peer reviewed books that properly source their claims are much less reliable than Bill O'Reilly, or a few miliblogs... Not!

Keep in mind you've just accused me of preaching and belittling and you immediately proceed to do the same thing. As for the reasons why I hate the republicans I've made that abundantly clear both in that post and pretty much in every other post I've made.

Not that I even care to justify it to you since you're not even capable of not going extremely personal and feeling righteous about it to boot.

And I've already answered what I would do in the "Get out of Iraq" thread. A little note, it's not getting out.

I didn't realize I needed to back my statements up with credible facts. Is that something reserved only for Republicans on this site? Do the liberals here KNOW for a fact that the Iraqi people hate Americans? Or are they parroting what they here from the liberal media?

Couldn't agree more!!!!!!! fdr HATES America, but won't admit it.

Now, you see, you know where you are, so you should know by now that nobody actually listens to that kind of jingoistic crap here.

That aside, excellent way of ducking the question. If this was the RNC that is.

The sum of what got through that awful mess you call a reply is "Blahblah blah *angry ad-hominem* anti american, blahblahblah *pointing at their weak points to cover yours* stupid liberals, blah blah blah *parroting stereotypical republican speech* diapers". Anyone else here got the same message that I did?

[ProudGOP]

That aside, excellent way of ducking the question

I learned from the liberals on here....Thank you !!!!

The sum of what got through that awful mess you call a reply is "Blahblah blah *angry ad-hominem* anti american, blahblahblah *pointing at their weak points to cover yours* stupid liberals, blah blah blah *parroting stereotypical republican speech* diapers". Anyone else here got the same message that I did?

Waffle's throwing a temper tantrum....You need a timeout young man !!!!!


The notion that somehow reading books is wrong is so profoundly stupid I have to wonder if you're actually taking it seriously.

Reading books isn't wrong. But you have no life experience to weigh it against. Your coming to your conclusions based on left leaning history books. Like I said wait 10 years, see if real life changes the utopian veiws!!!!!
My son is 20. He knows everything. I don't argue with him. He listens to college professors all day and thinks their liberal theories will hold up in the real world. In time, He'll learn on his own.

And apparently you keep thing those 3000 lives are orders of magnitude more valuable than a few hundred thousand lives from people from other countries, which is why you come out as a fascist to anyone slighty to the left of Ann Coulter.

Then I'm a fascist !!!!! Tell me waffle, What would bother you more? watching the news and seeing that a stranger was killed in a car accident, or seeing that your mother was killed in a car accident?
If your answer is your mother, you must be a fascist. Your mother's life is no more important than that stranger's right? But, you'd still be a hell of a lot more upset about your mother.
Get the point yet?!?!
I am an AMERICAN!!! and unlike the liberals here, I love my country. I want blood for the deaths of those 3000. I don't care how insignificant that # is in the world view. 3000 AMERICANS were killed on AMERICAN soil. Damn right I want revenge !!!!!

[Wafflepudding]

Hardly a temper tantrum, you're confusing genuine apathy for "lets piss him off" rethoric, little wonder since you use it copiously. See, for me to be bothered by anything you say I'd have to care about it first. Chances are I think about your opinion the same way you think about mine, lets leave it at that.

It would be more important to ME, indeed, but I got enough common sense to know I'm not the center of the universe.

I also got enough sense to know that killing another 3000 Iraqies won't bring those 3000 Americans back from the dead, and it won't ease the suffering of those that have lost their loved ones.

Damn right I want revenge !!!!!

And we finally get to the bottom of the issue.

That's a completely understandable reaction. And I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I didn't feel that way when I was in school watching live footage of the WTC collapsing. But at a scarce 20 years of age, I understand that revenge is a hollow pursuit that does not fix anything and ends up causing more pain and suffering, often to people that had nothing to do with those who wronged you in the first place.

Of course I want some blood, but I want Bin Laden's, Al-Quaeda's, and also from the people in charge that let this happen, Bush, Rumsfeld and Chenney. They had been in charge for a whole damn year and they repeatedly ignored the warning signs that another terrorist attack was about to come.

More than that, I want to know that we're going to win this, and in the past 6 years there has been setback after setback. It's been six years, if you really feel righteous indignation instead of yelling at the liberals, you should be yelling at Bush for not delivering us Bin Laden in a barbecue pit.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and revenge against the arabs in general is not serving justice and it's not making us safer either, it's galvanizing opposition to us and giving them the idea that we're on a crusade against Islam, which is playing right into Al-Qaeda's hands.

[JamesP]

James, I am not "afraid" of terrorists. I am just well aware that they DO actually exist and DO wish America harm. As for liberals, you can't be "afraid" of something you don't believe exists.

PG - You're right. Terrorists exists and they wish to kill us. Some are Arab and some are American (i.e. Oklahoma City).
Terrorists, murderers, rapists, child-molesters all exist.
We need to "stop" them, not to "become" them.
We need to punish the guilty, not kill guilty & innocent alike.
We need to stay true to the greatness & moral goodness of America.

9/11 obviously did not affect Thelonious or James personally. What a cavalier attitude towards 3000 innocent Americans who lost their lives.

I'll say it again, liberals care more for the "innocent" Iraqis than for Americans. Yet you guys wonder why I'm "angry"!!!! It is statements like this that makes me hate liberals.

Nothing "cavalier" going on here, PG. We care about all innocent lives lost and we care deeply for our America. We just don't care much for yours.

"Yours" is a tribal, vengeful, savage, reckless, arrogant, misguided America that is a threat to humanity. We don't share your vision of our country or of the world. We've only seen the beginning of the cycle of violence what the Bush administration has wrought in the world. Keep your eye on the new emergence of Russia's military after seeing what a reckless giant like America can do when misguided and watch the race for nuclear weapons by many countries to deter American aggression.

Do the liberals here KNOW for a fact that the Iraqi people hate Americans? Or are they parroting what they here from the liberal media?

PG: Read, research, think. The information on the way the Iraqi's now view Americans is readily available. You can imagine how Americans would view Iraqi's if they occupied our country, killed tens of thousands of us, destroyed our infra-structure, plunged us into civil war, etc. Also, the photos of our fellow Americans naked, being led around on dog leashes by Iraqi women wouldn't help much. Nor would the stories of families being executed by rogue American soldiers in our homeland.


One last question (for now): How much revenge is enough?

Thanks, PG, for a lively discussion and for providing a glimpse into the "heart of darkness" of the American right.

[FDRfollower]

@Thelonius You're right, I don't comment much really, except for issues like This (http://www.progressivesonline.com/showthread.php?t=1248), maybe the Shakespeare quote was a bit vague without spending the time to put it in context. I had been reading Plutarchs Lives chapter on Coriolanus, then I started to read the Shakespeare play on him, and ran across the quote, and was startled to see parallels to the Neo-cons and Shakespeare using Marcius to describe the condition of the Roman state at the time. Since the Roman empire has been the model for the recent Fascist dictatorships, and is a model for our current neo-cons, Cheney and his boss Shultz in particular, I just had a flash of insight and had the urge to put it up.

Sorry if I sometimes forget that most people don't spend inordinate amounts of time pouring over tomes to try and figure out how history has worked. I strongly encourage you to spend more time with Will. The issue of Tragedy in classical literature (the Greeks in particular, and Schiller) are all addressing the mindset of the population and why they are so screwed up. Looking at the US, and what we have on our plate, certainly gives one pause as to our tragedy and how we came to the point of having such a retarded president controlled by such a vicious psycopathic (I cringe at the thought of calling Cheney a human) "person", while the Republican and Democratic party sit around in a phallus comparison competition. Meanwhile, out in the real world, the infrastructure is falling down, 10's of millions of folks are staring at eviction (due to the biggest Ponzi scheme in history thanks to bubbles Greenspan) and the banks are all bankrupt. Yet, straight out of the Hoover/Melon playbook, Bernake commits the same mistakes they did in dealing with it. But, this is all a reflection of the degeneration of the entire US population.

Kudos for JamesP's brave attempt to civilize 'ol ProudGooopy.

[ProudGOP]

Nothing "cavalier" going on here, PG. We care about all innocent lives lost and we care deeply for our America. We just don't care much for yours.

The liberal America would look an awful lot like France, I'm afraid !!!!!

One last question (for now): How much revenge is enough?

When radical muslims don't have the balls to attack America again. Unlike liberals, I have no problem with the U.S. being the super power. Liberals want America to weaken itself and be on par with other countries. No thanks. America is the greatest country in the world. You guys need to learn that !!!!

And fdr, you seriously need a girlfriend (or boyfriend) whatever the case may be. Do you have any interaction with other human beings? You probably bore the shit out of people. Get a life man !!!!!!!

[FDRfollower]

Sorry, I don't take advice from anyone who is hostile to ideas, denigrates classical literature, have blind hatred for others, and repeats propaganda from the neo-cons. Your opinions are about as worthwhile as used toilet paper.

Folks seem to like my verbal sparring with you and your ilk. It certainly gets you all riled up. You obviously think that I'm not boring, since your react with such bile and hatred. Folks you YouTube think that my work is good.

Its you who need to find someway to look at other human beings other than through Faux "news", Rush, and Cheney. You'll be much happier, although doing so would make your doctor unhappy, since he won't have to sell you so much high blood pressure medicine.

[JamesP]

The liberal America would look an awful lot like France, I'm afraid !!!!!

PG: Just for the fun of it.... what wrong with France? Why would being like France be bad?

When radical muslims don't have the balls to attack America again. Unlike liberals, I have no problem with the U.S. being the super power. Liberals want America to weaken itself and be on par with other countries. No thanks. America is the greatest country in the world. You guys need to learn that !!!!


Radical muslims lack many things... but not balls ... and they have long memories.... and like you and yours ..... are all about vengeance.

Liberals have no problem with the US being "the superpower" and world leader. We believe, though, that we have a responsibility to see to it that we wield power ethically, take the moral high ground, lead the world toward peace & prosperity and elect leaders who are smart & sophisticated.

And we are going to see to it that America is once again the greatest country in the world and that others in the world have no reason to hate or fear us.

And if you don't like our America.... you know ... you don't have to stay. :D

[MAGI]

Page 2.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/etc/cron.html

June 28, 2001

Attack "Highly Likely"

National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice is warned during an intelligence briefing that an Al Qaeda attack is “highly likely.”


Summer 2001

FBI Investigators ID Cole Suspects at Malaysia Meeting

Sources close to the Cole investigation tell FRONTLINE that during the summer of 2001 the CIA informs the FBI about the Malaysia meeting and shows them a picture of one or two of the Cole suspects. The FBI reportedly identifies Cole suspects Tawfiq bin-Atash and Fahad al-Quso. Al-Quso would later deny that he made it to the meeting and claims that the individual in the picture just looked like him.


July 4, 2001

Almidhar Re-enters U.S.

Khalid Almidhar re-enters the U.S. through JFK airport. He later meets with Mohamed Atta.


July 10, 2001

Spain Meeting

Mohamed Atta meets with his former roommate Ramzi bin al-Shibh in Spain along with a number of other Arab men. Only after Sept. 11 do officials discover the meeting and conclude that bin al-Shibh also may have been at the January 2000 Malaysia meeting.


July 10, 2001

Request for Flight School Investigation

The FBI's Phoenix office sends a memo to FBI headquarters requesting officials initiate a nationwide investigation of flight schools. The memo warns that bin Laden supporters may be attending flight schools in the United States.


July 18, 2001

Ressam Convicted

The FBI warns that the conviction of Ahmed Ressam for the millennium plot to detonate a bomb at Los Angeles airport could lead to retaliatory terrorist attacks.


July 31, 2001

Another FAA Alert

The FAA issues yet another warning to airlines that terrorists could be planning to hijack American airlines.


August 2001

Bin Laden Operatives Return to Afghanistan

According to a later report by the British government, “In August and early September [2001] close associates of bin Laden were warned to return to Afghanistan from other parts of the world by Sept. 10.”


Aug. 16, 2001

FAA Warns of Weapons from Everyday Objects

The FAA warns airlines that terrorists may use weapons modified from everyday objects.


Aug. 16, 2001

Moussaoui Arrested

Minneapolis FBI agents pick up and arrest Zacarias Moussaoui on immigration charges for overstaying his visa, but agents are concerned he could be a terrorist. The Minneapolis office tries unsuccessfully to secure either a criminal search warrant or an intelligence warrant to search Moussaoui's belongings. After Sept. 11, a federal indictment would claim that Moussaoui was in possession of two knives, a flight manual for a 747-400, fighting gloves and shin guards, and an aviation radio.


Aug. 27, 2001

CIA Cables FBI Names of Almidhar and Alhazmi

The CIA cables the FBI, warning that Khalid Almidhar and Nawaf Alhazmi are inside the U.S. and are suspected terrorists because of their presence at the January 2000 Malaysia meeting.


Aug. 28, 2001

French Brief FBI on Moussaoui

They say Moussaoui has been linked to Al Qaeda.


Sept. 5, 2001

Bin al-Shibh Leaves for Afghanistan

Ramzi bin al-Shibh, the former roommate of Mohamed Atta, who had attended both the July meeting in Spain and the January 2000 Malaysia meeting, leaves Germany for Afghanistan.


Sept. 11, 2001

Sept. 11 Attacks

Hijackers alleged to be members of Al Qaeda take control of four airliners and crash two into the World Trade Center, and one into the Pentagon. A fourth hijacked plane crashes into the Pennsylvania countryside. The attacks kill more than 3,000 people.


Post-Sept. 11, 2001

Postscript: Links to 1995 Bojinka Plotter; al-Shibh Captured

U.S. investigators discover evidence they believe links Khalid Shaikh Mohammed -- wanted and still at large for his role in the 1995 Bojinka plot -- to the Sept. 11 hijackings. A few weeks later, U.S. officials say they believe that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed is the operations chief of Al Qaeda. It is also later reported that the National Security Agency had intercepted telephone conversations between Mohamed Atta and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed before Sept. 11, but had not “properly” translated them at the time. Officials quoted in one story refused to describe the content of those conversations.

On Sept. 11, 2002, Ramzi bin al-Shibh is captured by Pakistani police in a shootout in Karachi. He is currently in U.S. custody and, according to a U.S. Defense Department official, is “providing valuable information.” Bin al-Shibh is believed to have knowledge of Al Qaeda operations in Europe and Southeast Asia.

2004 Update: Khalid Shaikh Mohammed now in U.S. custody - see details.



and P GOP, tell us why BUSH and Company pulled our troops away from cornered bin Laden in Afghanistan (leaving that job to a small contingent and terrified Afghani's (:eek: ),

and illegally, Pre-emptively INVADED IRAQ?????????????????

:confused:

Will you please read this!

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows

[MAGI]

Page 1.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/etc/cron.html
I learned from the liberals on here....Thank you !!!!



Waffle's throwing a temper tantrum....You need a timeout young man !!!!!




Reading books isn't wrong. But you have no life experience to weigh it against. Your coming to your conclusions based on left leaning history books. Like I said wait 10 years, see if real life changes the utopian veiws!!!!!
My son is 20. He knows everything. I don't argue with him. He listens to college professors all day and thinks their liberal theories will hold up in the real world. In time, He'll learn on his own.



Then I'm a fascist !!!!! Tell me waffle, What would bother you more? watching the news and seeing that a stranger was killed in a car accident, or seeing that your mother was killed in a car accident?
If your answer is your mother, you must be a fascist. Your mother's life is no more important than that stranger's right? But, you'd still be a hell of a lot more upset about your mother.
Get the point yet?!?!
I am an AMERICAN!!! and unlike the liberals here, I love my country. I want blood for the deaths of those 3000. I don't care how insignificant that # is in the world view. 3000 AMERICANS were killed on AMERICAN soil. Damn right I want revenge !!!!!




Oh "Proud" propagandized servant of the Gov't Of Prostitutes, see how al Qaeda was known to be in 56 countries before 9/11, including the ..........:eek: ..............U S of A!

See who is the leader of al Qaeda and how Hussein and Iraq is not even mentioned!

Read how our intelligence and the FAA knew of imminent al Quaeda plans to use airplanes to fly into buildings as happened on 9/11.............
and about those 3000 people who were murdered in the 9/11 attack in our country by bin Ladin's al Qaeda agents , some of whom were part of CELLS in OUR :eek: country.........:

BUSHCO now at the helm.................



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/etc/cron.html
skip

January 2001

FAA Warns of Hijackings

Between January and August of 2001, the Federal Aviation Administration issues 15 advisories to airlines and airports warning that terrorists could try to hijack or destroy American aircraft.


Jan. 24, 2001

"The Brothers Going to America"

Italian authorities record Abdelkader Mahmoud Es Sayed, an imam in Italy, talking about fraudulent documents for “the brothers going to America.”


Jan. 25, 2001

Clarke Warns of Sleeper Cells

Richard Clarke, the National Security Council counterterrorism chief, sends a memo to Deputy National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley warning that Al Qaeda sleeper cells within the U.S. are “a major threat.” Clarke also advocates targeting Al Qaeda training camps in response to the Cole bombing.


Jan. 27, 2001

Cole Links to Al Qaeda Confirmed

The Washington Post reports on this date that investigators in Yemen believe that people in custody are tied closely to Al Qaeda. An anonymous Bush administration official tells The Post, “There is no question that Al Qaeda was involved in this attack.”


February 2001

Suspicious Flight School Student

Instructors at an Arizona flight school become suspicious about a students who speaks English poorly and has limited flying skills. They report him to the FAA. The student, Hani Hanjour, a Saudi, later pilots a plane into the Pentagon on Sept. 11.


April 2001

Specific Threat On U.S. Targets

Washington reportedly receives a “specific threat” that Al Qaeda may attempt to attack American targets in the Middle East or Europe.


April 18, 2001

Another FAA Warning

This warning to airlines states: “The FAA does not have any credible information regarding specific plans by terrorist groups to attack U.S. civil aviation interests... Nevertheless some of the current active groups are known to plan and train for hijackings... The FAA encourages U.S. carriers to demonstrate a high degree of alertness.”


May 11, 2001

State Dept. Warns Americans Overseas

The State Department warns that American citizens overseas may be targeted by Al Qaeda.


May 29, 2001

East Africa Convictions

Mohamed al-'Owhali, Khalfan Khamis Mohamed, Mohammed Saddiq Odeh, and Wadih el-Hage are convicted on charges including conspiracy to kill Americans, which stem from the 1998 embassy bombings.


June 2001

Visa Issued to Almidhar

The State Department re-issues a visa to Khalid Almidhar, a Sept. 11 hijacker who was present at the January 2000 Malaysia meeting.


June 2001

FBI Withdraws from Yemen.More FAA Warnings

Citing a security threat, the FBI pulls investigators out of Yemen. This same month, the FAA issues more warnings to airlines. The NSC's Richard Clarke later tells FRONTLINE that those warnings were “absolutely” related to Al Qaeda operatives discussing what would eventually become the Sept. 11 attacks.

By late June, intelligence experts are extremely concerned about the possibility of an imminent attack.


June 2001

State Department Closes Embassies

The U.S. embassies in Senegal and Bahrain are shut down and the State Department issues a new worldwide caution.


Mid-June

Attack on Yemen Embassy Thwarted

Yemeni authorities thwart an attack on the U.S. embassy in Sana, Yemen.


June 22, 2001

"Condition Delta"

U.S. Central and European Command impose “Force Protection Condition Delta” because of concerns about a terrorist attack.



skip


continued on Page 2.

[Thelonious]

He bombed Iraq to distract people from the Lewinsky scandals.

Waffle,
Thanx for this excellent post. There is sooooo much material here that I could write two books about it. I have some serious disagreement with several of your conclusions, but the fact that you are thinking is really refreshing. (The quality of your thinking is always quite good. I'm nearly always impressed with you.)

Regarding the reason Clinton bombed Iraq: Be very careful about ascribing motives!!! It is a rhetorical trap. It debases debate. Nobody knows exactly why Clinton bombed Iraq. Maybe a few who discussed the idea with him before the event have some hints. (in ten or twenty years these people will be interviewed and we may get a decent idea of why) He may have had secret motivation... Things are rarely that simple. This is the kind of ridiculous oversimplification that Rush Limbaugh uses. "He bombed Iraq to distract people from the Lewinsky scandals." There is a certain logic to it. It's very simple. All his listeners can understand it. It is a stark condemnation of a politician (we already hate politicians anyway). So people choose to believe it.
If it is actually true or not... we may never know... (and before I use a brash statement like that to draw further conclusions, it needs more meat...)

[Thelonious]

Let's ascribe some motives.....
Dubya wanted to invade Iraq to show he was better than his father.
The Iraq war was all because of oil.
Arabs kill Americans because they hate freedom.
Dubya invaded Iraq to protect Americans.
Gorbačev started Glasnost because he was afraid of Reagan.
(none of these statments can ever be proved either way. some are sillier than others, but pretending to be SuperPsychoanalsisist about politicians and their motives leads nowhere)

[Thelonious]

Waffle,
You did not answer my first and most basic question.
Who was better, Clinton or Dubya?????

(sure you dug up some dirt on Clinton. Clinton is easy to criticise. As is any president. Any president will come out looking really bad when you compare him to some idealised fairy-tale good-king statemans, which is something that we all tend to do. Compare him to Dubya for a few minutes. Compare him to other presidents of the last 100 years or so. You will likely find him second only to Franklin Rooosvelt)

[Thelonious]

The civil rights act came more or less as a consequence of the activism of the decade. In my humble opinion, LBJ was just there to sign the bill, but it would have happened regardless of the person in the white house at the time

Waffle,
You show a BLATANT double standard here. By you LBJ gets NO CREDIT for the civil rights act because the political pressure would have made anyone do the same.
But at the same time Bill Clinton is FULLY RESPONSIBLE for letting people die in Africa, absolutely regardless of the political pressure on him not to send US troops there.

About Rawanda... before 9-11 and after Mogadishu the American people were in no mood for sending US troops to Africa on a humanitarian mission. (besides the French were already there. why weren't they doing the job) The Americans had just elected Gingrich and his gang. The wolves were prowling and Clintons effectiveness as a president was very much endangered.
Your commentary on Rawanda seems to be based on the idea that US troops can stop a genocide whenever and whereever. Had the US invaded Rawanda in the 90s, could they have really taken control of such a heavily armed and hostile society. How long would pacifiing and disarming the militias take. Would the Gingrich led congress cut off funds for the mission??? (quite likely i'd say) Would the US troops leave after a year? after two years? after constitutional democracy is well established? Would US troops be there to this day, patrolling the Rawandan countryside, terrified at every step that they'll hit a land mine? There is ABSOLUTELY no guarantee that the presence of US troops in Rawanda in the 90s would have made a positive long term difference. (when I build a hypothetical situation in my head, it is easy to make it rosy and bloodless. reality never quite works that way)
Morally it was worth the risk. "Morally" there is no question about it. But presidents do not make many decisions based on morality. Most of their decisions are made on a practical basis (and thank God for that)

In any event, comparing Clinton's not invading Rawanda with Dubya's invading Iraq is absurd. The decision making in each case was ENTIRELY different.

[Thelonious]

I've been to France. It's kind of a nice place. :o)

[Thelonious]

You know, after 9/11, I really expected Bush-Chenney-Rumsfeld to hunt down and kill Bin Ladin. I was in favour. I'm still in favour. But somehow Bush-Chenney-Rumsfeld forgot about him and got involved in making very expensive anarchy in the Persian Gulf. Hmmmmmmm.
The Dubya administration has actually said that catching Bin Ladin is not a priority. Dubya said he doesn't spend time on Bin Ladin, that he doesn't think about him too much.
I almost never watch Fux News, but last month I turned it on and there was their panel of "4 experts" and they were joking and jibing about "What would even be the point of catching Bin Ladin?" "Why bother?" "Obama's a few beers short of a sixpack if he thinks that's important" "Yeah, well the ACLU will be clamouring to defend him..."
So ProudGOP wants his revenge. The trouble is Bush-Chenney-Rumsfeld are sooo usless and incompetent that they are getting revenge on 25 million Iraqis who had nothing to do with 9-11 and ignoring Bin Ladin. That is F...ed up!!!

Proud One,
If you want revenge on the people who really killed on 9-11, I suggest you vote for the Democrats.

[Thelonious]

PG: Read, research, think. The information on the way the Iraqi's now view Americans is readily available.

One last question (for now): How much revenge is enough?


James, This was an excellent post. Thank you for this one.
I repeat two highlights with praise.

Yeah, Proud One,
How much revenge is enough? (I think this is a real important question)

[Thelonious]

I want blood for the deaths of those 3000. I don't care how insignificant that # is in the world view. 3000 AMERICANS were killed on AMERICAN soil. Damn right I want revenge !!!!!

Well Proud One, I do care how insignificant that number is. Wanna know why??? Because I want to have a REALISTIC world view. I want to see the world the way it is, not the way my feelings tell me I should see it.

If you want to win a war one very important thing is to know your enemy. Americans are SO COMPLETELY obsessed with 9-11 that they have no chance to understand how the Palestinians and the Saudis and the Iraqis see the world. There are different paradigms there. It would be enormously helpful if Bush-Chenney-Rumsfeld could see that, but they can't. It would be enormously helpful if Joe Sixpack could see that. But he can't.

[Thelonious]

Waffle,
"If you don't like any of the horses in a race fine. But putting your mouse on the track will make no difference to anybody. [sorry if that is cynical. i think it is realistic]"

...is a metaphor for running third party candidates, Nader for example.

[JamesP]

Well Proud One, I do care how insignificant that number is. Wanna know why??? Because I want to have a REALISTIC world view. I want to see the world the way it is, not the way my feelings tell me I should see it.

If you want to win a war one very important thing is to know your enemy. Americans are SO COMPLETELY obsessed with 9-11 that they have no chance to understand how the Palestinians and the Saudis and the Iraqis see the world. There are different paradigms there. It would be enormously helpful if Bush-Chenney-Rumsfeld could see that, but they can't. It would be enormously helpful if Joe Sixpack could see that. But he can't.

:thumbup:

[FDRfollower]

Yeah, I'm curious too. What is it that makes France such a horrible place? List some details. You would think that dumb-Ditto-heads would love the police state in France.

Since PG wants to resort to World Wrestling Federation bombast and personal slander, I should remind you to stay out of others love life you PERV. :nono:

[Thelonious]

Nothing from Waffle yet. Hmmmmm. :o(

[ProudGOP]

Since PG wants to resort to World Wrestling Federation bombast and personal slander, I should remind you to stay out of others love life you PERV.

fdr, what are you 12? You call me a "perv" for telling you to get a girlfriend & a life?
Wow....You are really sensitive !!!! I must have hit a nerve. You can't expect to meet someone when your 45 years old,living in your parent's basement,drinking and reading dusty textbooks from the 18th century.

France is basically a socialist state. The government is way too involved. The french government takes care of people from cradle to grave. They are cowards. They turn their back on America even though America bailed their asses out during WWII. They'd be speaking German if not for America !!!! They hate Americans. Which is why France is a liberal's wet dream.

HATE THE FRENCH !!!!!!!

[JamesP]

I'm usually not out in the car in the middle of the workday, but I happened to be out today and listened to a bit of the Limbaugh show.

It's been a long time since I'd heard any of it. I should have known better but I must say that I was really surprised by the really silly, adolescent, low-level dribble that took the place of any semblance of intelligent discussion of issues.

There were silly songs about how Democrats hate America, the usual Hillary, Bill & immigrant bashing, inane references to France as somehow emblematic of all that is evil and "liberal" in the world and lots of bombast, bluster and hostility.

Are Limbaugh listeners in some kind of a wierd, political time warp designed for the ininformed, immature, unintelligent and just plain crude & piggish?

ProudGOP: Limbaugh is your hero, isn't he? Nothing to be ashamed of. The France thing is a dead give away. Own up to it and set yourself free. No need to think, research or make sense, just turn on the radio in the middle of the day. Do you work, by the way?

[FDRfollower]

I said give some details, not retailing the usual rage-radio line about France. How exactly is their government "way too involved"? How do they "take care of people from cradle to grave". Its not true, but for the sake of arguement, what is wrong with any government that at least has some concern for the welfare of its citizens?

The French are the French. They have little tolerance for anyone, much less uncultured barbarians like you. If I was from there, I wouldn't have much use for a culture that eats Velveeta "cheese" and Wonder "bread".

Despite your small-minded zenophobia, I've met plenty of freindly people from France who like Americans. I don't get the idiotic statement that they "turned their back on us" when they never "signed up" in the first place. Everyone else has abandoned this suicidal quagmire of ours in Iraq, so why aren't you accusing them of turning their back on us? At least they went along with the bribery and threats for awhile.

You didn't hit a nerve you perv. My folks live on the other side of the country, I don't drink, and I actually spend a lot of time talking to a lot of people. I'm just pointing out, that like most "conservatives", you spend way too much time obsessing about what happens in other peoples bedrooms. You're like all the "conservatives" who were screaming about Bill Clintons fling, who were all involved in affairs of their own. :rolleyes: The only wet dreams are yours, since your mother/wife/cousin ain't givin you any. Ask Rush for some of those medications. Maybe they'll calm you down enough to think for a change.

[Thelonious]

HATE THE FRENCH !!!!!!!

Why? What good could that possibly do for me or my children?? Will the American family somehow be strengthened by me hating French people??

I admit it has been a few years since I sat down and had beers with any French people. But when I did, I didn't find any Frenchmen who hated America or Americans at all. Some of them disagreed with some of America's elected leaders.... [I have often disagreed with that buffooon, Chirac]. The idea that the French are cowards is bullship. There are hundreds of examples which prove the opposite. There are also a few very good examples of how French policy-makers have understood some of the changes in the world over the last 60-70 years that sometimes escape the American leaders.

"France is basically a socialist state. The government is way too involved. The french government takes care of people from cradle to grave."

Yes, and why is it that you have a problem with that??? Does it threaten your livelyhood? Will your children go hungry because of this??? Proud one, can you explain this??? Because as it stands it makes no sense at all.

[Thelonious]

I have just given the Proud One some karma [I'd hate if he had limited sharing because of low karma] with this comment...

Dear Proud One,
Thank you for changing the subject. FDR's sex life is far more important to the future of this country than any nonsense about Neo-con policies.

p.s. just a hint of sarcasm there i guess. hmmmmm.

[Thelonious]

My wife and I have a broken swing in the garden. About once a week I mention it and ask a few questions about whether we should fix it or replace it or.... every time she changes the subject.... She just refuses to talk about it... Hmmmmm. Are you getting the idea that she doesn't care about the swing???

When I talk about victims of war... say maimed children in Iraq and the medical treatment that they are not getting... My brother-in-law always says "What about innocent American children?!?!?!? Don't you give a damm about them?!?!?!?" Then he answers his own question and concludes that I'm a liberal and hate America and should move to France to suffer horribly in that Socialist HELL!!!!!. He does this Every Time. He changes the subject. He absolutely refuses to discuss the issue.
Of course I care about American children. Of course I am happy that the government [Ronald Reagan said "Government is the problem"] is working hard to catch terrorists and protect American children from bombs. I am also happy that my congressman is working to improve port security. I don't want anybody floating bombs into my harbours. Yet all of this is like my wife saying "We have a pretty good couch in the living room. Why do you hate the couch in the living rooom?!?!?!?" That is simply a different topic. The couch in the living room is fine, but I am thinking about fixing the broken garden swing....

Maybe some of the right wing wackos on this site can explain to me why the horrors of French health insurance are really so much more important than the amputated legs and arms and heads and hands and toes and elbows and penises of Iraqi children.
Come on. Explain this to me.

[Thelonious]

So the next time it comes up.... ask your Brother-in-law point blank....

If Bill and Hillary and the entire country of France and all the liberals in Hollywood suddenly fell off the planet, how exactly would the USA be in better shape??? Would be suddenly not have 150000 exhausted troops in the middle of a failed state in the Persian Gulf??? Would we suddenly not have the largest deficit in American history, bordering on bankruptcy??? Would all the people of the world suddenly start believing that we really only torture terrorists and nobody else??? Would our bridges and tunnels suddenly become safe to actually use, without falling into rivers??? Would homeless Katrina victims suddenly have real levees which will protect them from the next hurricane to hit??? Would Haliburton suddenly give back the ten billion dollars they looted???

No. Bill, Hillary, France, and Hollywood have nothing to do with America's troubles. The wacko right-wing let's-pretend-to-lead cadre does.

[ProudGOP]

ProudGOP: Limbaugh is your hero, isn't he? Nothing to be ashamed of. The France thing is a dead give away. Own up to it and set yourself free. No need to think, research or make sense, just turn on the radio in the middle of the day. Do you work, by the way?

Actually no he's not. I like Sean and Ann !!!!!! And yes I do work everyday. My working helps support all the unemployed, illegal, lazy people. I also support the babies that crack addicted mothers keep having. Your welcome !!!!

what is wrong with any government that at least has some concern for the welfare of its citizens?

There's a huge difference between "having concern" and SUPPORTING!!!!

The French are the French. They have little tolerance for anyone, much less uncultured barbarians like you. If I was from there, I wouldn't have much use for a culture that eats Velveeta "cheese" and Wonder "bread".

What a profound statement. Maybe you should have broken out a quote from the 16th century. You are a such pompous arrogant liberal who hates America as much as the french do.

And fdr, I don't "obsess" over your bedroom life. I was making the point that you don't have a gf because you are a boring pompous drunk. Obviously by the way you keep arguing about it, I was right !!!!

The only wet dreams are yours, since your mother/wife/cousin ain't givin you any.

When you can't use the "race" card use the "redneck" one....Talk about "WWF bombast". I really made you angry. You didn't even use any quotes this time.

France is basically a socialist state. The government is way too involved. The french government takes care of people from cradle to grave."

Yes, and why is it that you have a problem with that??? Does it threaten your livelyhood? Will your children go hungry because of this??? Proud one, can you explain this??? Because as it stands it makes no sense at all.

Why do I have a problem with socialism???????!!!!!!?????? Are you kidding Thelonious? The government should not be your "parent" from cradle to grave. People should stand on their own. Why is this concept so hard for you to understand?

If Bill and Hillary and the entire country of France and all the liberals in Hollywood suddenly fell off the planet, how exactly would the USA be in better shape???

I'm not sure, But I'd LOVE to find out !!!!!

Thelonious, you say "of course I care about American children". Have you ever opened a conversation with your brother-in-law with that topic? I'm guessing not.
You keep saying that 9/11 is insignificant on a world scale. Maybe it is. But as an AMERICAN who was personally affected, I really don't care to hear liberals like yourself dismiss it like it was no big deal. Liberals get all hot & bothered about the innocent people of Iraq being killed. Yet when talking about the 3000 AMERICANS, they're "insignificant".

I also like how you refer to the right as "wacko". Yet your a member of the LOONEY left. Maybe we would not be in a "failed" state in the persian gulf if the loonies would get behind their country. That way we wouldn't have to fight a politically correct war. It kills me to hear liberals claim they "support" our troops yet constantly belittle the commander in chief. That must be wonderful for morale.

And thanks for the karma, even though fdr's sex life is such a short topic !!!!!

[ProudGOP]

This was sent to my e-mail....

QUITE AN ANALOGY
>
> I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it
with
>seed.
> Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the
>continuous
> flow of free and easily accessible food.
>
> But then the birds started building nests in the boards of the
patio,
>above
> the table, and next to the barbecue.
>
> Then came the poop. It was everywhere: on the patio tile, the
chairs,
>the table
> ... everywhere.
>
> Then some of the birds turned mean:
> They would dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed
them
>out
> of my own pocket.
>
> And others birds were boisterous and loud:
> They sat on the feeder and squawked and screamed at all hours of
the
>day and
> night and demanded that I fill it when it got low on food.
>
> After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore.
> I took down the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone.
> I cleaned up their mess and took down the many nests they had
built
>all over
> the patio.
>
> Soon, the back yard was like it used to be...... quiet, serene and
no
>one
> demanding their rights to a free meal.
>
>
>
> Now let's see....... our government gives out free food,
subsidized
>housing,
> free medical care, free education and allows anyone born here to
be an
> automatic citizen.
>
> Then the illegal's came by the tens of thousands.
>
> Suddenly our taxes went up to pay for free services; small
apartments
>are
> housing 5 families: you have to wait 6 hours to be seen by an
>emergency room
> doctor: your child's 2nd grade class is behind other schools
because
>over half
> the class doesn't speak English:
>
> Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to press "one" to
hear
>my
> bank talk to me in English, and people waving flags other than
"Old
>Glory"
> are squawking and screaming in the streets, demanding more rights
and
>free
> liberties.
>
> Maybe it's time for the government to take down the bird feeder.

Couldn't have said it better myself !!!!!!

[FDRfollower]

Actually no he's not. I like Sean and Ann !!!!!! And yes I do work everyday. My working helps support all the unemployed, illegal, lazy people. I also support the babies that crack addicted mothers keep having. Your welcome !!!!

Worse!! :twisted:


There's a huge difference between "having concern" and SUPPORTING!!!!


Why? Again, why not give some specific examples instead of the generalized gingoistic hate speech. None of the crap you're repeating from the radio ignoramouses is worth a damn, yet you repeat it verbatim and then complain about me quoting Shakespeare.


Why do I have a problem with socialism???????!!!!!!?????? Are you kidding Thelonious? The government should not be your "parent" from cradle to grave. People should stand on their own. Why is this concept so hard for you to understand?


Maybe, if you turned off the radio nazis, you could think for a change. Its obvious, that since the "free market" is such a rotten stinking failure, that government HAS to step in. After all, there is a Constitution that charges the government to protect the general welfare, Mr. anti-constitution.

[FDRfollower]

This was sent to my e-mail....

>QUITE AN ANALOGY

Couldn't have said it better myself !!!!!!

Obviously, you couldn't, so you just quoted someone else, like you always do.

[ProudGOP]

Obviously, you couldn't, so you just quoted someone else, like you always do.

This coming from fdr is too funny to even respond to !!!!!

[Thelonious]

You keep saying that 9/11 is insignificant on a world scale. Maybe it is. But as an AMERICAN who was personally affected, I really don't care to hear liberals .....

Boooo Hoooo Hooooo. What a f....ing crybaby! Grow up and be a man. That's what's wrong with the wacko right.... always whining about how they are the victims.... Poor me, poor me, Bill Clinton ruined my life.. boooo hoooo hoooo.

When you are ready to quit crying like an infant come and have a real discussion about real issues. 'Till then maybe you should try to find a Crybabies Annonymous website.

[Thelonious]

Why do I have a problem with socialism???????!!!!!!?????? Are you kidding Thelonious? The government should not be your "parent" from cradle to grave. People should stand on their own. Why is this concept so hard for you to understand?


You didn't answer the question. How do French government programs negatively effect your life??? It was a very simple question. Your brain is capable of processing it. Try it. Try to answer it.

Further, I assume that you have benefitted from an elementary school education. When exactly did you have time to earn the money to pay for it? Teachers' salaries cost money. Constructing, maintaining and heating a school building cost money. I assume that at six years old you had already established a good income and could pay for it.... or Did your parents finance it for you???? Or did you leach off of taxpayers' dollars??? Is that how you stood on your own two feet, crybaby???

[Thelonious]

I also support the babies that crack addicted mothers keep having. Your welcome !!!!


Through which government program do you support these babies??? Or is it a private charity??? How much does it cost??? How many babies does it help??? [do these babies need to stand on there own too?] Does it take a large percentage of your tax dollars?

I'm not going to pretend that there is any chance you will answer these questions. You won't because you don't care. [These babies by the way are the innocent American children that you claim to want to protect so much. I guess by killing Iraqi babies in revenge for something that a few dozen Saudis did. [yeah, it does sound absurd]] If you took the time to research it you would realize that... but you don't want to know. You want to bitch and whine and moan that YOU ARE THE VICTIM of other people unfairly taxing YOU you YOU... and using the money to treat newborn Americans with serious heath problems. Poor ProudOne. My sympathy is really with you. I mean some day the socialist French might attack !!!!!!

[Thelonious]

There's a huge difference between "having concern" and SUPPORTING!!!!


Supporting. Your liberal 20 year old son hasn't joined up, has he?

Have you started a campaign to institute the draft so he'll have to go and support the effort??? Have you written to your congressmen to tell them to support the draft???
Have you promoted tax hikes to pay for body armour??? Have you sent money to help pay for the armour that our soldiers need on their humvees, but the "commander in chief" somehow can't manage to purchase????
When was the last time you went to the Iraq and Afganistan Veterans' Association web site to see what our wounded soldiers really need???
If you really wanted to support the troops, you'd be protesting in front of the White House every day....

[Thelonious]

Thelonious, you say "of course I care about American children". Have you ever opened a conversation with your brother-in-law with that topic? I'm guessing not.

ProudCryBaby,
I have already answered this question. It was in my post. Read it again.

It is also cute that you are once again changing the topic just like the WackoRight always does. All you can do is criticise some imaginary "Liberal" villians. When it comes to some real issue all you can do is say "well if the goddam liberals were to support the troops/commander-in-chief/war on terror..." as if the mythological all powerful liberals are to blame. LOL. It's just laughable.
It wasn't the Liberals who spent HALF A TRILLION dollars and still couldn't win a war against a small desert country [Iraq] (now you're saying 'we won that war easily' Oh yeah, so then the troops can come home. we won. what they can't come home??? Hmmmmm. really? oh... different kind of trouble there.... hmmmmm? guess Dubya really messed that up, huh??)

[FDRfollower]

Hi Thelonius. I've put a song on YouTube that makes fun of PG and his type.

LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkmdV05in7U)

[ProudGOP]

Boooo Hoooo Hooooo. What a f....ing crybaby! Grow up and be a man. That's what's wrong with the wacko right.... always whining about how they are the victims.... Poor me, poor me, Bill Clinton ruined my life.. boooo hoooo hoooo.

I bet your a telephone tough guy too thelonius.
I'm not going to sit here and apoligize for caring about the 3000 Americans killed on 9/11.

Further, I assume that you have benefitted from an elementary school education. When exactly did you have time to earn the money to pay for it? Teachers' salaries cost money. Constructing, maintaining and heating a school building cost money. I assume that at six years old you had already established a good income and could pay for it.... or Did your parents finance it for you???? Or did you leach off of taxpayers' dollars??? Is that how you stood on your own two feet, crybaby???

Thelonius, are you really this big of an asshole or are you trying to gain fdr's approval? For you to try and make your point with an argument about six year olds in elementary school shows how ignorant you are.
I'm talking about WELFARE, FOODSTAMPS,SUBSIDIZED HOUSING. In other words, ADULTS who should be self sufficient. Do you understand now ? Do I need to dumb it down some?

Through which government program do you support these babies???

Wow, you really are a jackass !!!! It's called welfare and unemployment.

Supporting. Your liberal 20 year old son hasn't joined up, has he?

No, he hasn't. He is an ADULT, and a liberal. I can't force him to sign up. I'd have absolutely no problem with him joining the military.

Have you promoted tax hikes to pay for body armour???

If I knew my $$$ would be used for armour and not another welfare case, I would.

If you really wanted to support the troops, you'd be protesting in front of the White House every day....

Only left wing loonies like you who are being supported by the government have time to protest. I have a job to go to...need to keep that crack baby in diapers!!!!!!

'Till then maybe you should try to find a Crybabies Annonymous website.

Good one !!! No, I think I'll stay here. I obviously got you all riled up just like fdr.

This whole site is made up of liberal crybabies. All you left wing loonies do is bitch and moan. For a liberal to call me a crybaby is pretty ironic.

[JamesP]

At the risk of further indulging our resident right-winger (ProudGOP) and perpetuating his rise to star-status in this thread, I'll attempt to summarize him here one item at a time:

- hostile to the needy

Starts with the belief that everyone should stand on his own, but moves beyond this to high level hostility, driven by the idea that some of his money is being used to help the unworthy against his will. In his mind: needy = unworthy.

He is particularly piqued by the notions perpetuated and reinforced by the affluent right that the needy are lazy and most are of a different race than he and are taking advantage of his hard work and sacrifice.

This is one of several ways that the Republican party, (of, by and for the wealthy) reaches out to ordinary-income Americans and influences them to vote against their interests.

More in the next installment.

[FDRfollower]

True JamesP.

Worse, hostile to the needy and foreign economic refugees who have become so due to the collapse of the former industrial and farming sector thanks to the irrational adherence to free trade.

He is particularly piqued by the notions perpetuated and reinforced by the affluent right that the needy are lazy and most are of a different race than he and are taking advantage of his hard work and sacrifice.

This is one of several ways that the Republican party, (of, by and for the wealthy) reaches out to ordinary-income Americans and influences them to vote against their interests.

Just to make a rather hairy analogy to your above quote, the Nazi party used the above arguement about the need to eliminate the mentally defective and other undesirables because of their "burden" to the "normal" working class family. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, ya know.

[ProudGOP]

At the risk of further indulging our resident right-winger (ProudGOP) and perpetuating his rise to star-status in this thread, I'll attempt to summarize him here one item at a time:

James, why do you feel the need to sum up for me? Are liberals that stupid? I'm speaking ENGLISH.

- hostile to the needy

WRONG !!!!! There is a difference between someone getting some assistance until they are on their feet again and abuse of a system to SUPPORT them. I have a huge problem with the latter. WHY DON'T YOU ???????

Starts with the belief that everyone should stand on his own, but moves beyond this to high level hostility, driven by the idea that some of his money is being used to help the unworthy against his will. In his mind: needy = unworthy.

So, you don't think people should stand on their own?
Don't speak for me james. needy does not equal unworthy. You know damn well I'm talking about peolpe that use welfare as a lifestyle not a bridge.

He is particularly piqued by the notions perpetuated and reinforced by the affluent right that the needy are lazy and most are of a different race than he and are taking advantage of his hard work and sacrifice.

Why is it that liberals ALWAYS bring race into the conversation? Everyone assumes the Republican is the racist. When really the liberal always sees things in color. Tell me james, where in any post did I equate lazy with race? You james are a closet racist.

taking advantage of his hard work and sacrifice

There are tons of people doing this. Why should I not have a problem with it? You should too !!!!!

Today is the anniversary of the worst attack on AMERICAN soil ever !!!!
I know to the people on this site, james & thelonius inparticular, this is a very insignificant event. But, to TRUE Americans who actually LOVE their country, it is a day to remember those who lost their lives. I noticed that not one stinkin' liberal on here even mentioned the anniversary. If GW had farted at a dinner party, there would be countless posts.

[The Shadow]

Today is the anniversary of the worst attack on AMERICAN soil ever !!!!
I know to the people on this site, james & thelonius inparticular, this is a very insignificant event. But, to TRUE Americans who actually LOVE their country, it is a day to remember those who lost their lives. I noticed that not one stinkin' liberal on here even mentioned the anniversary. If GW had farted at a dinner party, there would be countless posts.

I feel that you are quite incorrect in your assessment. This day has significant meaning to me. It is the day when our country, for the most part, became a nation of fearful, cowering, xenophobes. A nation of people willing to surrender their rights as citizens that many had died for in order "feel" a bit safer. It is the day a new "boogeyman" was created so that we would have someone or something else to fear now that the old Communism boogeyman was gone. It is indeed a sad day for me. 2,992 folks killed in New York, another 3,000 or so of our military men and women killed in Iraq and Afghanistan all wasted, their deaths, I fear, in vain. Yes ProudGOP you are wrong, for this is truly a sad day for me.

[JamesP]

I feel that you are quite incorrect in your assessment. This day has significant meaning to me. It is the day when our country, for the most part, became a nation of fearful, cowering, xenophobes. A nation of people willing to surrender their rights as citizens that many had died for in order "feel" a bit safer. It is the day a new "boogeyman" was created so that we would have someone or something else to fear now that the old Communism boogeyman was gone. It is indeed a sad day for me. 2,992 folks killed in New York, another 3,000 or so of our military men and women killed in Iraq and Afghanistan all wasted, their deaths, I fear, in vain. Yes ProudGOP you are wrong, for this is truly a sad day for me.


Well said, Shadow.

A tragic day compounded by so many tragedies that followed it, not the least of which is the loss (temporary, I believe) of our American soul.

That a single, criminal event could transform so many in our nation into sniveling cowards, so easily misled, is both sad and dangerous.

I retain hope that the nobility, morality and courage of Americans will ultimately win out over tribal brutality and acquiescence to fear & manipulation.

The tide is turning.....

Americans are recognizing that the victims of 9-11 have been shamefully abused:
- for personal and political gain by the right
- as a pretense for a raid on the US treasury unprecedented in history
and 3000 lost lives were transformed into 300,000 in the process.

[JamesP]

WRONG !!!!! There is a difference between someone getting some assistance until they are on their feet again and abuse of a system to SUPPORT them. I have a huge problem with the latter. WHY DON'T YOU ???????

So, you don't think people should stand on their own?
Don't speak for me james. needy does not equal unworthy. You know damn well I'm talking about peolpe that use welfare as a lifestyle not a bridge.

I stand corrected. We agree!


Why is it that liberals ALWAYS bring race into the conversation? Everyone assumes the Republican is the racist. When really the liberal always sees things in color. Tell me james, where in any post did I equate lazy with race?


It was your reference to "crack babies" that gave me the idea that there may be a racial element to your hostility to the poor. Crack is a drug largely associated with poor minorities in America. "Crack-babies" is often a "code-word" used by the right-wing to evoke scary images of ghetto-dwelling people of color having multiple babies out of wedlock. In your mind, are most "crack-babies" black or white?


There are tons of people doing this. Why should I not have a problem with it? You should too !!!!!


I have problems with many things. For me, you over-emphasize aid-to-the-poor as a burden on the American taxpayer. It is not such a large part of the budget and you focus way too much on those that abuse the system.

The unbelievable debt that we Americans have been burdened with has occurred mainly during Republican administrations and is associated with corporate give-aways, giving more & more comfort to those already most comfortable and, recently, illegal, unjustified, immoral, "for-profit" war.

[Thelonious]

Today is the anniversary of the worst attack on AMERICAN soil ever !!!!

This is not true.

[Thelonious]

...it is a day to remember those who lost their lives. I noticed that not one stinkin' liberal on here even mentioned the anniversary.

I think you are brain-dead. There have been dozens of posts here about 9/11.

[Thelonious]

Haliburton "accidentally" overcharged the US taxpayer 10 billion dollars. Money which was never returned. The Bush-Chenney corporate giveaway, sometimes called the energy bill, gave 36 billion dollars outright to Exxon-Mobil alone.....

And ProudCryBaby is worried about feeding a few crackbabies. LOL. The man is really really reality-challenged. LOL LMAO.

[Thelonious]

ProudCryBaby,
Join up. The millitary needs you.
Quit flipping burgers in Gary, Indiana and go to Iraq yourself. You'll have a good chance to get revenge on the terrorists who have been dead for six years now. Maybe you can even see some Iraqis kill other Iraqis in the fight for control of Mesopotamia... but don't worry... the whole time you can pretend that it is about "Protecting America" LOL

[Thelonious]

ProudCryBaby,
you never did answer me. Why should I hate the French?

[Thelonious]

I'm talking about peolpe that use welfare as a lifestyle not a bridge.

James,
Do not take this too seriously. The ProudCryBaby knows nothing about the real situation. He pretends that the Clinton Welfare Reform bill never happened. He pretends that huge amounts of his money are being distributed to the lazy. ProudCryBaby has no interest in actually looking at the facts. He just loves to feel like he is the victim of the mythical Welfare Queen.
ProudCryBaby is just building up straw men so he can knock them down again. There is no reality there. It is a fantasy land. "Hate the French" "Hollywood liberals are destroying our country"
All my life I have been listening to pompous innoramouses claiming that they work hard to support the lazy wefare queens. So I ask "If it's so nice on welfare, why do you work?" I have never met one, who actually quit work and went on welfare because life is better that way.
ProudCryBaby doesn't know it, but there is no government program called welfare. None at all. There never has been. It is a myth. But ProudCryBaby and his pompous friends want to believe in it, so they do. And then he writes things like "Liberals are stupid" because he can't even begin to understand what we are writing about.
We are writing about reality, ProudCryBaby, REALITY.

[Thelonious]

If I knew my $$$ would be used for armour and not another welfare case, I would.

Have you looked at the federal budgets of the last six years??? Obviously not. If you took half an hour, and looked at the facts you wouldn't write bullshit like this. You would know where your money has been going. But that would be a dose of reality for you. and you wouldn't like that. LOL LMAO

[Thelonious]

ProudCryBaby,
Please quit working. Please quit paying taxes. I really really hate the idea of your martyrdom. Please go on welfare and lead a good happy life. Take up hunting. Or coach a local football team. Don't worry. I'm rich. I'll pay extra taxes for you. I'll take one of my offshore companies and move it on shore. [please tell me what state to move it to] And the tax revenue from it will more than cover lost income from your taxes and what you draw in Foodstamps etc. Please please do it. It will be good for you and good for America. Ok?

[ababof]

just a few words from a french person...Rather funny to see your argument,by the way.

First, we can't share the same point of view about many issues just because we don't get the same information; To some of you, it's not obvious, but it's a fact !!!
I sometimes watch channels like CNN and there is a real gap between what you see and how it's commented and what we get here in France.

Furthermore, we have a very different culture which tends to oppose justice and revenge. No death penalty in France. Should a whole country be guilty, killing back would make us like them.

And I am afraid to say that yes, we are not particularly fond of people who drop parts of history. We are grateful to those who came here to fight, we would have been even more grateful to those who sent them if they had done it earlier, but, it's true, YOU were still safe. We obviously don't get the same education either.

[ababof]

THELONIUS,

now you know why !!!

[The Shadow]

Thank you ababof, and if I may be so forward, welcome to the forums. I cannot speak for Thelonius, but as for myself, it is nice to know why we should hate the French.

[ababof]

actually , I read what you said about Medias and I think it very important that some people raised such questions.

[BlueStateGal]

One has to wonder what right wingers think would happen if there were no welfare. Would one of you care to respond?

[FDRfollower]

First, a welcome to Ababof and BluestateGal. Hello

The worst attack on American soil was in 1814 when the British Army burned Washington DC down.

I'm starting to read a book about Roosevelt and Harry Hopkins. His description of the Hoover years is telling. ProudGoopy sounds just like Hoovers promotion of individualism and what a failure that was! To BlueStateGal, I don't know how much history you've delved into but his ranting is too typical of complainers who don't want to work out how to make it a reality. His promotion of "let the market solve everything" has been a recipe for disaster every time and ironicaly, creates most of those "welfare bums" that he complains about.

Huey Long had a "share the wealth" program which sounded good in speeches, but when studied, would have o