[NeoCon Newbie]

Except for stoping dictators like Stalin Hitler Mussolini and emperor Tojo war hasnt solved anything not to mention it eneded communism,slavery and facism. Which you Liberals seem to be against but without war none of these could of been stoped.

[cat's meow]

Except for stoping dictators like Stalin Hitler Mussolini and emperor Tojo war hasnt solved anything not to mention it eneded communism,slavery and facism. Which you Liberals seem to be against but without war none of these could of been stoped.
...seem to be against!?!?

Put down your crack pipe and step slowly away from the table...

[Wafflepudding]

There's so many flaws in there (and that's without the spelling errors) I don't even know where to start.

So I'll just play my WW1 card. As in without that cheap artificial bravado and macho posturing about honor and empty patriotism that the Republican party relies upon since the 70's, world war 1 would not have ocurred. And without WW1, we wouldn't have had WW2, and no Hitler, no Stalin, no holocaust, no Nanking rape, no communist China, and a different Tojo (if a Tojo at all).

BY the way, Hirohito was the Japanese emperor, not Tojo. It might help you look better if you actually pick up a book and read about what you're going to say beforehand, saves you a lot of embarassment.

War is a horrible thing, but indeed is not the worst of things. The state of decay, apathy, and armchair activism we're falling into is probably worse. How many of us would be willing to actually risk their lives for their opinions? to back your words with bullets? to pay for freedom in blood? to take some lives in order to save more? to harm your fellow man because all other options like grassroots activism, demonstrations and peaceful resistance have fallen on cold, deaf, cruel and greedy ears? if indeed FEMA started concentration camps, how many of us, on either side of the political spectrum, would resist violently and how many of us would be "outraged" and "protest" and cast mean looks from the sidelines?

A hard question. A question I think, nobody else has the answer to but ourselves. An individual choice. One that I hope, we do not have to answer any time soon.

P.S: I'm not advocating sedition or attack on the goverment. I'm merely saying that our founding fathers knew there were inner and outer threats to our freedom.

[cat's meow]

Except for stoping dictators like Stalin Hitler Mussolini and emperor Tojo war hasnt solved anything not to mention it eneded communism,slavery and facism. Which you Liberals seem to be against but without war none of these could of been stoped.
BTW, where did you get the idea 'comminism has ended'? What a numbnut you are...would you like for me to start listing the countries who are still communist or are you really that stupid?

[NeoCon Newbie]

It may not of ended it but it slowed communism down so know only a few countries are communist N Korea China Vietnam.

[Jane of Arc]

I never get a straight answer from you Newbie. You even start this pro-war thread ... and yet there you are sitting behind your computer instead of being on the battlefield. Seriously, if you believe in the solutions war brings ... why the hell aren't you enlisted? What's the truth? Are you really just 12 yrs. old?

[cat's meow]

I never get a straight answer from you Newbie. You even start this pro-war thread ... and yet there you are sitting behind your computer instead of being on the battlefield. Seriously, if you believe in the solutions war brings ... why the hell aren't you enlisted? What's the truth? Are you really just 12 yrs. old?
Point well made...

[cat's meow]

The official current list...learn something.

* People's Republic of China (since 1949); Communist Party of China
* Republic of Cuba (Cuban Revolution in 1959, socialist state declared in 1961); Communist Party of Cuba
* Democratic People's Republic of Korea (since 1948); Korean Workers' Party
* Lao People's Democratic Republic (since 1975); Lao People's Revolutionary Party
* Socialist Republic of Vietnam (since 1976); Communist Party of Vietnam

[-V-]

War is not such a bad thing

after some consideration of your remark, my response is:

[cat's meow]

Except for stoping dictators like Stalin Hitler Mussolini and emperor Tojo war hasnt solved anything not to mention it eneded communism,slavery and facism. Which you Liberals seem to be against but without war none of these could of been stoped.
After much deeper probing, inquiries, hand-ringing, and consideration...

You would be the donkey gazing into the abyss:

http://webpages.atlanticbb.net/~ezahurak/gfx/orig/asshole.jpg

[NeoCon Newbie]

Well because of war that is why we only have 5 communist countries because of war Russia Ukraine estonia latvia kazhikstan poland etc is not commuinst anymore do the math numbnut war helps the situation.

[cat's meow]

Well because of war that is why we only have 5 communist countries because of war Russia Ukraine estonia latvia kazhikstan poland etc is not commuinst anymore do the math numbnut war helps the situation.
Seems both you and Mr. Cheney are pretty mixed up on what, when, and where war actually helps. Cheney on Iraq. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I)

[cat's meow]

Well because of war that is why we only have 5 communist countries because of war Russia Ukraine estonia latvia kazhikstan poland etc is not commuinst anymore do the math numbnut war helps the situation.
So the US declared war on those countries...try to stay with the point here :rolleyes:

[cat's meow]

Well because of war that is why we only have 5 communist countries because of war Russia Ukraine estonia latvia kazhikstan poland etc is not commuinst anymore do the math numbnut war helps the situation.
OK genius...with your super smart analysis of war and why wars are fought...then why did Cheney say this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I)(?), and then go ahead and invade Iraq?

I had post it again because it is sooo incredible...

[NeoCon Newbie]

So what do you have to say about all those Iraqs in Saddams torture chambers just screw that is the vibe I am getting from the left all you guys care is your self I think the Iraqs are glad the Liberals aren't calling the shots because Saddam would still be in power killing millions more of his people.

[-V-]

Saddam would still be in power

as cat's meow repeated and we will keep repeating here until CNN, NBC, CBS, ABC, and FOX repeat it at the top of their broadcasts, the answer to your question is the words of Dick Cheney. The overthrowing of Saddham would leave Iraq in a "quagmire" and "the question is how many dead American's is Saddham worth, and our judgement was not very many, and I think we got it right!

[cat's meow]

So what do you have to say about all those Iraqs in Saddams torture chambers just screw that is the vibe I am getting from the left all you guys care is your self I think the Iraqs are glad the Liberals aren't calling the shots because Saddam would still be in power killing millions more of his people.
First, can you try to actually use some punctuation sometime? It happens to be a real pain in the ass for me to have to read your rant five times just to get it correct. Bad writing shows a lack of courtesy to the reader and also shows a lack of detail. It is just lazy-ass BS.

Second, you could not pick up a 'vibe' even it was an 8.5 earthquake. Many leaders have used 'torture' chambers and Saddam is somehow special? Do you have any idea what happened in Cambodia after 1975?

So genius...I have a little prediction for you and I am about 95% sure this is going down. We get to the point in the next year or two where the violence (most likely during the next administration) is less and we decide it is time to go. We really can't stay any longer, there is not much more we can do and the Iraq gov (for what it is worth) says they are taking over. Fine, we leave.

There becomes a total impasse in governing bodies in Iraq and the Sunni, Kurd, and Shiia sides escalate killing and torturing one another like the Tutsis and Hutus did in Rwanda. They see no compromises and just decide it is best to wipe out the other side, this is already going on.

So genius...we have created more violence. At least under Saddam if you stayed out of the man's way and ceremonially said you were a Baathist he would not kill you. FACT: Sunni, Kurd, and Shiia all want each other wiped off the face of the earth.

You tell me what a great thing we have done? We are moving up to 4000 of our own dead in order to create a civil war. Brilliant.

Again, Cheney even said this would be the problem and he totally went the other way on the same assessment I just gave.

[Wafflepudding]

They don't call him "Dick" cause his name's Richard, that's just a happy coincidence.

Also

There becomes a total impasse in governing bodies in Iraq and the Sunni, Kurd, and Shiia sides escalate killing and torturing one another like the Tutsis and Hutus did in Rwanda. They see no compromises and just decide it is best to wipe out the other side, this is already going on.

THANK YOU!

[cat's meow]

So what do you have to say about all those Iraqs in Saddams torture chambers just screw that is the vibe I am getting from the left all you guys care is your self I think the Iraqs are glad the Liberals aren't calling the shots because Saddam would still be in power killing millions more of his people.
Myanmar (Burma) is being run a military dictatorship and tortures people all the time...time to invade huh?

[FDRfollower]

So what do you have to say about all those Iraqs in Saddams torture chambers just screw that is the vibe I am getting from the left all you guys care is your self I think the Iraqs are glad the Liberals aren't calling the shots because Saddam would still be in power killing millions more of his people.

What is the difference between Cheney torturing people, and when Saddam or anyone else around who does?

[FDRfollower]

because Saddam would still be in power killing millions more of his people.

From the British charity organization Oxfam:

July 30, 2007 10:10 AM

Nearly a third of Iraqis need immediate emergency help as conflict masks humanitarian crisis

The violence in Iraq is overshadowing a humanitarian crisis, with eight million Iraqis - nearly one in three - in need of emergency aid, says a report released today by international agency Oxfam and NCCI, a network of aid organisations working in Iraq .

The agencies' report "Rising to the Humanitarian Challenge in Iraq" says although the appalling security situation is the biggest problem facing most ordinary Iraqis, the government of Iraq and other influential governments should do more to meet basic needs for water, sanitation, food and shelter.

According to the report:
Four million Iraqis - 15% - regularly cannot buy enough to eat.
• 70% are without adequate water supplies, compared to 50% in 2003.
• 28% of children are malnourished, compared to 19% before the 2003 invasion.
• 92% of Iraqi children suffer learning problems, mostly due to the climate of fear.
• More than two million people - mostly women and children - have been displaced inside Iraq .
• A further two million Iraqis have become refugees, mainly in Syria and Jordan .

Jeremy Hobbs, director of Oxfam International, said: "The terrible violence in Iraq has masked the ongoing humanitarian crisis. Malnutrition amongst children has dramatically increased and basic services, ruined by years of war and sanctions, cannot meet the needs of the Iraqi people. Millions of Iraqis have been forced to flee the violence, either to another part of Iraq or abroad. Many of those are living in dire poverty.

"Despite the terrible violence the Iraqi government, the UN and the international community could do more to meet people's needs. The Iraqi government must commit to helping Iraq 's poorest citizens, including the internally displaced, by extending food parcel distribution and cash payments to the vulnerable. Western donors must work through Iraqi and international aid organisations and develop more flexible systems to ensure these organisations operate effectively and efficiently.

"The fighting and weak Iraqi institutions mean there are severe limits on what humanitarian work can be carried out. Nevertheless more can and should be done to help the Iraqi people."

While there is an urgent need for greater humanitarian assistance, Oxfam and NCCI believe that ending the conflict must be the top priority for everyone involved in Iraq . The Iraqi government and multi-national forces must also ensure their troops respect their moral and legal obligations not to harm civilians and their property.

The Iraqi government should immediately extend its food parcel distribution programme, increase emergency cash payments and support local aid organisations. The government should also take a more decentralised approach and allow local authorities to deliver aid. Foreign governments, including the USA and UK , should support Iraqi ministries in implementing these policies.

Oxfam had staff working inside Iraq but withdrew them due to chronic security problems. It now supports domestic and international aid agencies which are able to operate in Iraq . Although violence and insecurity restrict aid workers from helping Iraqis in need, an Oxfam survey in April 2007 found that over 80% of aid agencies working in Iraq could do more humanitarian work if they had more money.

Many humanitarian organisations will not accept money from governments that have troops in Iraq , as this could jeopardise their own security and independence. Therefore the report urges international donors that have not sent troops to Iraq to provide increased emergency funding for humanitarian action.

Ends

Sounds like torture to me, just without the dictator.

[JamesP]

City in a Time Warp
War is pushing Baghdad out of the 21st century and back to a bygone age of ferrymen, midwives, donkey drivers and shepherds.
Check out the story om Newsweek.com

Many of our right-wing Yahoo friends can take satisfaction in the idea that American military power "bombed them back several centuries".

Quite an achievement, considering we were intending to:
- save the Iraqi people from Saddam
- turn Iraq into a modern Democracy

[-V-]

as Bill Maher said, "Bush is determined to bring Democracy to Iraq even if he has to kill every last one of them to do it".

[FDRfollower]

Bush is determined to bring Democracy to Iraq even if he has to kill every last one of them to do it".

Wasn't that the thinking in Vietnam?

[Wafflepudding]

After much deeper probing, inquiries, hand-ringing, and consideration...

You would be the donkey gazing into the abyss:

http://webpages.atlanticbb.net/~ezahurak/gfx/orig/asshole.jpg

I thought he'd be the elephant gazing into the abyss.

[cat's meow]

I thought he'd be the elephant gazing into the abyss.
"Elephant-hole" does not quite carry the same meaning and impact ;) :D

[Thelonious]

"War is not such a bad thing" ???

Well, compared to what?
Looking around the last century or so... probably the greatest cause of human misery has been warfare.
Floods earthquakes famines and droughts have also caused a lot of suffering, but many of the famines are a direct result of fighting preventing farmers from farming, or warriors stealing or destroying crops....
In modern times we have the tech and the resourses to eliminate most other suffering, but we are really really bad at stopping war.
Some might prefer war to a brutal dictatorship. Some wars are certainly unavoidabel. But to make a blanket statement that "War is not so bad" seems a little silly to me.

[JamesP]

September 25th, 2007 8:58 pm
Military recruiters sponsor Halo 3 release party


By Carol Robidaux / New Hampshire Union Leader

Manchester – By 9 p.m. more than 100 gamers, some with parents in tow, had gathered at the GameStop for a "Halo 3" release party

There was only one glitch in the festivities -- a "Halo 2" tournament was delayed after the chain store's district manager, Suzan Shockley, announced that nobody under 18 could participate. Top prize: a copy of "Halo 3."

The futuristic combat game is rated M for Mature for "blood and gore, mild language and violence," which means you have to be 17 to buy it, or a parent has to buy it for you.

Fortunately, the Air Force was on hand to save the day.

As co-sponsor of the gaming event, local Air Force recruiters were manning party central outside in the strip shopping center parking lot, where underage gamers flocked for pizza, Mountain Dew and a chance to play "Halo 2" on a split screen from the back of a pimped-out military SUV.

"This is going to be huge," said Air Force recruiter Staff Sgt. Christopher Johnson, who got to the site about an hour before the party to set up. "We expect a big showing. We have the same demographic as they do," he said, nodding toward the video game store across the parking lot "Our target market is identical to that of video game stores," Johnson said.

[JamesP]

Wars have cost Africa an estimated $284 billion since 1990 By Shashank Bengali,

McClatchy Newspapers
Wed Oct 10, 5:01 PM ET


NAIROBI, Kenya — Years of bloody conflict in Africa have drained funds from education, health care and battling diseases such as HIV/AIDS, and advocacy groups have now put a price tag on the continent's recent battles.

Armed conflict cost African countries an estimated $284 billion over 16 years— roughly equal to the amount of aid that major donors gave to the continent during the same period— according to a study released Wednesday by the aid agency Oxfam International and two nonprofit arms-control groups, Saferworld and the International Action Network on Small Arms.

The study found that the economies of 23 African nations shrank by an average of 15 percent a year during conflicts. The losses amount to about $18 billion annually, which the researchers said was enough to address the entire continent's shortfalls in education, clean water and sanitation, and to prevent the spread of tuberculosis and malaria, which kill millions in Africa every year.

Africa is experiencing fewer and less deadly conflicts now than it was five years ago, despite renewed violence this year in Somalia , the Darfur region of Sudan and the Democratic Republic of Congo . The report doesn't examine actual military expenditures by governments, but focuses on the economic costs...

[ababof]

James,
About the human cost, there is also the particular issue of children-soldiers. What kind of adults do they become, if they become at all...

[ababof]

Also related to the Press room, on the subject, A. Kourouma. In french "Allah n'est pas obligé" in English it may be "Allah doesn't have to". Takes place In West Africa, but is very accurate.

[JamesP]

New Report Details 'Hidden' War Costs


A new report prepared by congressional Democrats shows that the price tag for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan so far is about $1.6 trillion.

--------------------------------------------------------

How else can can that much money be shifted from public to private hands.

I guess war is, indeed, good for some at the expense of others.