[-V-]

What would the right do if we gave them the abortion issue?

I say, they don't want it. They would rather the issue remain unresolved and I wouldn't put it past them to not put the Supreme court in a position to overturn Roe Vs. Wade

No one can say what the ethical answer is to the abortion issue. No one knows "when human life begins" so I say it is time to err on the side of caution, let them make abortion illegal after the first few weeks (under normal circumstances) and then when one of the Bush twins gets pregnant and aborts illegaly, let them figure out the jail sentences for her and her doctor.

Sure, more Americans are pro-choice. But a lot of them sat on their lazy ass this election. Pro-life supporters are far more passionate and it showed.

There are many more ethical questions with clear answers which were ignored in this election. It is time to prioritize and reclaim the moral high ground that liberals have sacrificed long and hard for!

[-V-]

Oh, and if you are a Democratic woman who has a problem compromising on this issue and you make a mistake that leads to an unwanted pregnancy and make another mistake by not making up your mind whether to abort within the first few weeks, give me the embryo and I'll carry it around in an incubator for the remainder of the term and then put it up for adoption if that's what it takes to take back this country from the corrupt, hypocritcal liars who call themselves compassionate conservatives.

I'd rather carry around an innocent embryo for a few months than have the world be saddled with a blood sucking right wing demon child for 4 more years.

[anartgrey]

Wow. Very well put, there tin. I love the blood-sucking demon child part. Yes, the abortion issue is an emotional trigger. Historically, facist regimes undermine women's rights, and relegate women to third class citizen status, along with people of color, homosexuals, and "liberals" (anyone who values human life over government power, even if those humans don't look like them). So, ultimately, this is "par for the course". As a human, any law that restricts what I can do or cannot do with my own life and body is bad 'juju' in my opinion, but in this case, the rabbit hole goes much much deeper than this issue.

[Scullyism]

Lets look at it from another angle. How about the impact theat economics have on abortion. Do you all think it is odd that abortions have gone up during the Bush presidency? While it was at a low during the Clinton presidency. If a mother can not take care of the children that she already has, how can you expect her to bare another mouth she can not feed, clothe or afford daycare for. Abortion becomes an option even to those of us who do not believe in it when there is no hope.

I do not believe in abortion. I dont believe I would ever have an abortion, in fact I am experiencing some infertility issues and would love to have a child, but the reasoning for being pro-life is usually a moral/values issue or a religious issue. I will never put what I value above all and tell everyone else in America to believe what I believe or else.

At the point that Christians or any other religious entity begins to legislate their beliefs on all, we are no longer a free society!

[anartgrey]

True Scullyism, and that point is now.

[treehugginliberal]

I have no doubt that this administration will have "proper" thinking justices on the Supreme Court soon what with Rehnquist being 80 years old and suffering with cancer and O'Connor contemplating retirement. I also do not believe that Arlen "Magic Bullet" Spector will be able to do anything about it, and that Roe v. Wade will be overturned before the Chimp-in-Charge is out of office. It never ceases to amaze me how men, who will never know what it is like to be pregnant, let alone be pregnant, alone and frightened, know the "right" thing a woman should do where her body is concerned. Perhaps we have not come all that far with regards to women's rights after all. I fear we will return to "those thrilling days of yesteryear" where the wealthy will be able to obtain an abortion (either going overseas or an agreement with their own doctors), while the poor and marginalized will once again be relegated to back-alley abortions, which will cause the deaths of untold number of women. While I personally do not believe abortion should be used as a measure of birth control, it seems as though death is the only measure of birth control the fundementalists will allow.
Have you all seen this one?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/10/12/contraceptive.complaint.ap/index.html (Pharmacist refused to fill birth control perscription)

How insane is this country becoming?

[Badandy]

It is time to prioritize and reclaim the moral high ground that liberals have sacrificed long and hard for!

The moral high ground of killing a child at the last trimester or in partial birth? That moral ground? And don't even start with this "Well what if it is going to kill the mother" thing because we all know there can be exceptions.

[Badandy]

The moral high ground of killing a child at the last trimester or in partial birth? That moral ground? And don't even start with this "Well what if it is going to kill the mother" thing because we all know there can be exceptions.

Haven't gotten a response. Exactly my point.



You can claim the moral "high ground" of killing your own child when his legs are out of your body or the moral high ground of killing your child when he has a brain and a heart. Don't worry, I as a conservative will not take that moral high ground.

[-V-]

there was no response because you veered off track. No one I know is for partial birth/late term abortions if the mother is not at risk. Conservatives claimed religious high ground on this issue. The moral high ground swings both ways depending upon when the human fetus is a human being whose rights supercede those of its mother, which is unknowable.

My compromise would be to allow a mother to abort a pregnancy within the first 8 weeks (longer in cases of rape).

when he has a brain and a heart so did the chicken you had for lunch

[Scullyism]

I dont know anyone who is FOR abortion of any kind. I dont see anyone out having abortion parties. I know plenty of people who are PRO-CHOICE. Who are FOR an individual searching within themselves and weighing their options and making a difficult decision. I am not for abortion, again I say, I would never have one, but who am I to tell any one what they should do. Who am I to be a moral judge over Jane Doe in Hanover, Maryland. I am nothing, I am no one to judge another. We throw rocks from our glass houses and in the end they will crash around us. We lie, cheat, steal, covet and make decisions that effect people's lives everyday and yet have the audacity, the unmitigated gall to judge a woman for decisions that she makes. What hypocrits we are. I am a Christian and a Liberal and yes the two can co-mingle. I believe that all children are a gift from God and those who do not make it to this cruel world are with the Lord, even those who have been aborted, and in that, they are better off than we are.

[Coven]

Scullyism, beautifully said.

[anartgrey]

thank you Scully.

[amylee]

wow~ thank you scully~ what beautiful words of love and compassion for all the women of the world and the choices they make for their own body..


Thank you~

Amy

[Badandy]

I dont know anyone who is FOR abortion of any kind. I dont see anyone out having abortion parties.


Unfortunately, you had someone at your nice little DNC having a shirt that said "I killed my baby" referring to abortion.

but who am I to tell any one what they should do. [Who am I to be a moral judge over Jane Doe in Hanover, Maryland.

Because for some it is not a moral issue. It is that of killing a person.




For the record:

I am pro-choice in the first tri-mester, and after that no way. Partial birth abortions are a no-no and something that your former candidate John Kerry had voted for in the past.

[-V-]

Partial birth abortions are a no-no and something that your former candidate John Kerry had voted for in the past.this isn't CNN where you can get away with that kind of Bush-shit. President Kerry votes AGAINST bill's that have all kinds of Republican stupidity built into them. He never voted FOR partial birth abortions.

someone at your nice little DNC having a shirt that said "I killed my baby" referring to abortion.great, you spotted one religious-right spy. Now look around you when you drive to work and count how many Repugs you see driving around with "Give War A Chance" bumper stickers.

[Coven]

Because for some it is not a moral issue. It is that of killing a person

Unless you are God no one knows when a fetus becomes a human life. As for the person with the I killed my baby T-shirt she is no better than the people who protest on the street holding up pictures of aborted fetuses or the extremists who bomb abortion clinics (but I guess that kind of killing people is oK)? It is a moral issue and you can not legislate morality.

[anartgrey]

I would like to present a point that you may or may not consider probable, that is up to you. There are many right leaning, conservative organizations in our country who actually employ like minded people to write harrassing emails to liberal groups such as ours. The reasons for this are obvious; to cause strife, to distract from productive discussion, to instill a sense of doubt or even fear in the readers. Almost always, these "emailers" will never admit to learning anything from what is said in reply to them. When the isp numbers are tracked to locate who these people are, often several different disruptive posters will have the same isp address, and different posting names, and they are even occasionally tracked back to organizations connected directly to right wing polititians. Opinion is what they are trying to control and open minds looking for the truth are what they are trying to undermine. They repeat their dogma, often becoming insulting or short tempered. What you must understand is to them it is the fun of tearing something or someone down as opposed to creating and building that drives them, plus they actually get paid (not much, but paid nonetheless) to do this. I just thought I'd remind you, or inform you, that this happens every day, and perhaps it may be happening right here, right now.

[JamesP]

Anartgrey: Interesting thought....

On abortion as a political issue:

The abortion issue costs us the support of too many good, otherwise non-political working class people.
Rove rejoices when we defend late term abortions and reject such common sense limitations as parental notification requirements for minors seeking abortions.
And young people -the new voters of today and the future- are not as pro-choice as a generation ago.
Unless we want to allow continued control of mutliple aspects of our lives by the ultra-right, we have to accept some some reasonable (if painful) ground on the abortion issue. It should be clear that we can no longer have it all. Our "choices" are limited.

[Badandy]

I would like to present a point that you may or may not consider probable, that is up to you. There are many right leaning, conservative organizations in our country who actually employ like minded people to write harrassing emails to liberal groups such as ours. The reasons for this are obvious; to cause strife, to distract from productive discussion, to instill a sense of doubt or even fear in the readers. Almost always, these "emailers" will never admit to learning anything from what is said in reply to them. When the isp numbers are tracked to locate who these people are, often several different disruptive posters will have the same isp address, and different posting names, and they are even occasionally tracked back to organizations connected directly to right wing polititians. Opinion is what they are trying to control and open minds looking for the truth are what they are trying to undermine. They repeat their dogma, often becoming insulting or short tempered. What you must understand is to them it is the fun of tearing something or someone down as opposed to creating and building that drives them, plus they actually get paid (not much, but paid nonetheless) to do this. I just thought I'd remind you, or inform you, that this happens every day, and perhaps it may be happening right here, right now.

Me? I am not part of any republican organization trying to cause "strife". I am giving my opinion. I am not getting paid, I was just participating in a forum. But I will no longer be doing so. Many of you will be happy hearing this, but I am honestly just tired of being personally attacked for expressing my opinion.

[JamesP]

Bad Andy: I appreciate your situation. Hang in there. These are passionate times for us lefties. It's nice to have an alternative view on the site - even if it often invites a bit of hostility/paranoia.

[Michael DeM]

Although I just joined, I've been reading the posts here for about a month, and I really don't want to see Badandy go. Differences in opinion should be welcomed, and we liberals need to remember that it's the conservative ideology we're opposed to, not the people who believe in it.

As for abortion, I think that we need to take a stand for what we believe in. If people are against legalized abortion then we need to make them pro-choice. Many Christians vote for whoever agrees with them on abortion ,and unless we show them that it's wrong to force one's personal beliefs on others, they are never going to listen to liberals on other issues.

[Coven]

First, welcome Michael. Second, Andy lets not do this again. I don't think your part of any republican org. I hope you stay I appreciate your opinion even if I disagree with it.

[-V-]

Democratic Leadership Rethinking Abortion
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&e=2&u=/latimests/20041223/ts_latimes/democraticleadershiprethinkingabortion
Party leaders say their support for preserving the landmark ruling will not change. But they are looking at ways to soften the hard line, such as promoting adoption and embracing parental notification requirements for minors and bans on late-term abortions.

[Michael DeM]

I can't believe the democrats are starting to compromise on abortion. A clear majority of Americans are pro-choice to some extent. Even a growing number of republicans are pro-choice. Besides, compromising would accomplish nothing. Given the choice between a strongly pro-life republican and a somewhat pro-life democrat, Christian right voters will vote for the republican.

[saintsday]

When will progressives stop adopting the bogus "pro-life" and "pro-choice" terminologies? If you are not "pro-life", are you by default for death? And "pro- choice" is weak, too. I choose to value life over death; I choose to honor responsibility in sexual relationships; I choose to support legislation and jurisprudence that allows safe, legal abortion. And sincerely wish that abortion could be much less common. I suspect that I have plenty of company. So put a bumper sticker tag on me.

[Michael DeM]

You're right, saintsday. Pro-life is a misnomer. Are conservatives pro-life on the Iraq war, the death penalty, or healthcare? Nobody can prove that a fetus is alive. It's a personal belief.

[-V-]

agreed, Saint. Pro-life and pro-choice are both innapropriate.

[republicantx]

The reason most people disagree with abortion is religion. You cannot stop someone from sinning. Illegal abortions killed thousands of women. I could never kill a child or embryo or whatever, but it is not my right to say that someone else cannot. This is exactly why we have a seperation of church and state. Abortion is a hard hitting topic, and people will never get over it, but it has gotten out of control. The same people who are protesting abortion are againt cloning. If you have a problem with abortion, pray about it. Don't blow up a clinic and murder the doctor. :D

[the_liberal_weiner_warrior]

The reason most people disagree with abortion is religion. You cannot stop someone from sinning. Illegal abortions killed thousands of women. I could never kill a child or embryo or whatever, but it is not my right to say that someone else cannot. This is exactly why we have a seperation of church and state. Abortion is a hard hitting topic, and people will never get over it, but it has gotten out of control. The same people who are protesting abortion are againt cloning. If you have a problem with abortion, pray about it. Don't blow up a clinic and murder the doctor.

For once I have to applaud and agree with republicantx. The line separating church and state is being violently raped by the GOP, and this needs to stop. I am a non-Christian, and I don't think I should lose any rights because of that.

[nurtz]

Couldn't agree more, Scullyism

[melrh]

Democrat should stop feeding conservative frenzy on abortion. Besides, the only people with access anymore have to be over 18 and have enough money to go to a state with a doctor who will perform one. The country as a whole makes abortion illegal in reality if not on paper. At this point I say let's get the issue over with so Republicans won't have that stranglehold anymore over one issue voters. It doesn't even work to talk about prevention. Ostriches think if people can't get abortions or contraception they won't have sex.

[gratelady1]

Freedom, thats what it is all about.

First, "Conservative men" want to push the abortion issue so they can get dialogue started, so they could force a Woman to go to term with thier (the men's) babies- Pretty stupid and simple. But now they want to impregnate a woman and then tell her what to do- all over again. I say we need a few new laws; first and most important is what I call the "American Freedom Law", It should state that "no one what so ever, can say what another American can do with their bodies and thier personal belongings-period!" This is true freedom, it prevents all the other laws from taking hold, as well as it keeps government out of our personal lives. You would think that such a law exists but it does not- not literally, it is just an accepted common sense assumption. But there are laws that "The Middle aged, Well-to-do, White Man" has put in place, to assure his dominance over his servants (us). If someone approaches me on the street and askes me what I am doing- I should be able to tell that person "to go mind their own bussiness!", period! If someone asks why am beating my cat, I should be able to say "Mind your own bussiness!", If someone asks me "why I just came out of that clinic" (known to be an abortion clinic) I will/ should be able to shoot them the finger!. Now that is the America I was raised to expect. Many call this point of view- "Liberal". I call it "progressing to the next state of freedom".

Second, No one can inslave, indept or in any other fasion persuade folks to make themselves indepted to some else- ie. No more credit cards, no more loans, no more borrowing, no anything that would make or allow a person to be forced into this new modernistic slavery, where one will never be able to claim "Freedom".

Third, taking both of the previous into concideration, Government will not respect any marriage, and or subserviant type of arrangement between any amount of persons, and in that manner, out-law marriage and the binding of a person to another.

Respecting that we all want to be free and free to do what we indivdually want, without being punished for our decisions, by those we love and respect, we believe that "Americans" above all other people, due to the way we were raised, deserve to be free to live our lives freely, when and how we choose. Marriage is a tool that has been used to enslave, people to people, as well as jobs, and the need for money, and many other of today's edifices.

Those women who become pregnant, and dont want to be, have the freedom to stop their respective pregnancies, they have several ways to choose from, which can be done quickly, painlessly and safely, without anyone knowing about it, thus by common sense, they have always had the freedom of choice and always will.

It is when they envolve another person, that it is now a public issue, and in the public domain. Many women use pregancy as a tool against men and this is aborrant, and those women should be tried as criminals and dealt with severely.

So then what would be the issue concerning Abortions? If I dont know someone is pregnant, and she aborts, how am I guilty of anything? How am I envolved, how does it become my bussiness?

Abortion is not more cruel than bringing up a child in an environment where he or she was never really wanted. Fighting for the life of that specific child is akin to fighting for a child to be sent to "HELL", and what kind of human being, placed here by "God", educated by "God", loved by "God", would condone, sending an innocent child to "Hell"!?

Some people are too stupid to understand that their beliefs (which they probably got from their parents) are misguided, and self-serving and of little use to this society. They should do the honerable thing and put a gun to their heads and spare this society thier ignorant opinions.

[gratelady1]

Freedom, thats what it is all about.

First, "Conservative men" want to push the abortion issue so they can get dialogue started, so they could force a Woman to go to term with thier (the men's) babies- Pretty stupid and simple. But now they want to impregnate a woman and then tell her what to do- all over again. I say we need a few new laws; first and most important is what I call the "American Freedom Law", It should state that "no one what so ever, can say what another American can do with their bodies and thier personal belongings-period!" This is true freedom, it prevents all the other laws from taking hold, as well as it keeps government out of our personal lives. You would think that such a law exists but it does not- not literally, it is just an accepted common sense assumption. But there are laws that "The Middle aged, Well-to-do, White Man" has put in place, to assure his dominance over his servants (us). If someone approaches me on the street and askes me what I am doing- I should be able to tell that person "to go mind their own bussiness!", period! If someone asks why am beating my cat, I should be able to say "Mind your own bussiness!", If someone asks me "why I just came out of that clinic" (known to be an abortion clinic) I will/ should be able to shoot them the finger!. Now that is the America I was raised to expect. Many call this point of view- "Liberal". I call it "progressing to the next state of freedom".

Second, No one can inslave, indept or in any other fasion persuade folks to make themselves indepted to some else- ie. No more credit cards, no more loans, no more borrowing, no anything that would make or allow a person to be forced into this new modernistic slavery, where one will never be able to claim "Freedom".

Third, taking both of the previous into concideration, Government will not respect any marriage, and or subserviant type of arrangement between any amount of persons, and in that manner, out-law marriage and the binding of a person to another.

Respecting that we all want to be free and free to do what we indivdually want, without being punished for our decisions, by those we love and respect, we believe that "Americans" above all other people, due to the way we were raised, deserve to be free to live our lives freely, when and how we choose. Marriage is a tool that has been used to enslave, people to people, as well as jobs, and the need for money, and many other of today's edifices.

Those women who become pregnant, and dont want to be, have the freedom to stop their respective pregnancies, they have several ways to choose from, which can be done quickly, painlessly and safely, without anyone knowing about it, thus by common sense, they have always had the freedom of choice and always will.

It is when they envolve another person, that it is now a public issue, and in the public domain. Many women use pregancy as a tool against men and this is aborrant, and those women should be tried as criminals and dealt with severely.

So then what would be the issue concerning Abortions? If I dont know someone is pregnant, and she aborts, how am I guilty of anything? How am I envolved, how does it become my bussiness?

Abortion is not more cruel than bringing up a child in an environment where he or she was never really wanted. Fighting for the life of that specific child is akin to fighting for a child to be sent to "HELL", and what kind of human being, placed here by "God", educated by "God", loved by "God", would condone, sending an innocent child to "Hell"!?

Some people are too stupid to understand that their beliefs (which they probably got from their parents) are misguided, and self-serving and of little use to this society. They should do the honerable thing and put a gun to their heads and spare this society thier ignorant opinions.

Huh- I think we already went down that ave.