[-V-]

Not if there is a possibility of false conviction.

If I witnessed it myself I might strangle the guilty party with my bare hands, however, it doesn't change the fact that even if one execution is proven to have been a mistake it is one too many. And in that case wouldn't the jury themselves be gullty of murder?

[Jane of Arc]

If someone massacred by family would I want them to receive the death penalty?

I would want them skinned and then slowly roasted alive on a BBQ spit in the middle of a town square.

BUT ...

Would I follow through and want them to receive the death penalty?

No.

I know in my soul the teachings of Christ are correct on this subject. And He was a person who was tortured to 'death'. And while He hung there in excruciating pain on the cross being slowly crucified, He looked down on His torturers and said, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."

You do not stop dehumanization with more dehumanization. - Jane of Arc :sunny:

[Jane of Arc]

JJ~

If I'm to understand what you're implying a close family member of yours was murdered? I am deeply, deeply sorry if this is the case.

I think crime and a 'sick' society, which we're all part of, has touched us all. I had a close friend murdered by a psycho and another friend gang raped, tortured and left for dead. I had a man try to rape me at gunpoint. And I have a sister who was molested and who knows what else by a 'neighbor'. I understand crime and 'sick' people are everywhere.

I'm trying my hardest, JJ, to become the best person I can be. I want to be part of the solution. There have been great, enlightened teachers that have walked the earth ... like Buddha and Christ and others who present options other than hate, revenge, war and suffering. I was deeply impressed by the actions of the Amish people who dealt with the murders of their family members with compassion and acts of love.

Doesn't some part of you understand what I'm trying to say here, JJ?



And Puddin' ~

I took abnormal psychology in college too. I've read the same books. I am completely pro-science, but they are not the definitive answer when it comes to the human mind much less the human spirit. There have been people operated on who have no brain. Seriously, when they were opened up in surgery ... no brain ... and yet they were functioning, intelligent people??? And there have been people who have had brain surgery and just gobs and gobs of their brains were removed and the person recovered with no change. Science, in short, knows almost diddley squat about these things. And don't get me started on psychiatry and psychology.

We don't live in a world where people rehabilitate each other. There is no system or scientific studies that have measured the effects of seriously deranged psychopaths receiving love and compassion. We are barbarians. We are still in the Stone Age of the human psyche.

Good to have you back. :sunny:

[Wafflepudding]

I'm sorry, but exactly what is wrong with what I said?

Not all life is precious, though all life has intrisic value, I'm not saying killing is ok. If we were living under a deterministic universe perhaps, but life is what you make of it and you put value on your life. You can't put a price on life, but that doesn't mean you can't prioritize, which in some situations is necesary.

I'm not talking about the money you earn, or the things you own, I'm talking about the impact you have on the world, and the kind of person you are. I know you think all life is precious but quite frankly if faced with a choice between saving a guilty convict's life and saving an innocent kid, you bet I'll choose the kid. How many people would save the convict instead?

How about a member of your family versus a regular person? how about feeding your own kids instead of starving ones in Africa? You could definitely support many kids for the same costs of a single one in America. Are they any less alive? any less human? is their life worthless? can you justify saving one precious life over several equally precious lives? No, but sometimes we don't have a right choice. Hell I got no compulsions about it, how about something a tad less extreme. Between pulling neocon newbie or jane out of a burning building, I'd pull jane. Between NN and Anderson? Anderson, between NN and V? V. Between a doctor and NN? the doctor. Are their lives worth more? To me, sure. Even if I don't agree with them, or if i hate the doctor, quite simply they contribute more to society, and will make a more positive impact on the world than a troll that can't even type or form coherent thoughts. And I don't feel bad about it at all.

We all put a value on life, daily. Quite simply, all lives have worth but not all lives have the same worth. It sounds horrible, I know, but I think that's just how the world, today, works.

[-V-]

Waf, i do appreciate your pulling me out of a burning building before NN but our lives are of the same worth, regardless of our subjective usefulness to society.

Regarding execution, it is never the case between choosing the criminal or the child. The choice is only between killing the criminal or imprisoning them. While I agree that, in some cases it can actually be more merciful to execute someone rather than put them in a cage for life, it is not our decision when to terminate that life.

Society created the monster and society must deal with it for the rest of its natural life.

Just as with animal slaughter, the "right thing" can be measured by asking oneself what they would be willing to do themselves. I could never pull the lever that would fry a human being and I could never order someone else to do it for me.

IF there was no chance it was a false conviction, I would, however, be open minded to granting someone their death wish if that was their preference and they were doing life without the chance of parol.

[-V-]

No, I'm saying corporations have nothing to do with serial killers. I'm saying GE didn't create the unabomber.

if i had more time i'd present the case as to why corporation have a lot to do with serial killers and how GE did create the unabomber.

[nita1]

Of course I believe in the death penalty.
Just let me know when we have:
1. perfect juries
2. perfect witnesses
3. perfect lawyers
4. perfect witnesses
5. perfect evidence gathering and preservation
6. perfect judges
7. perfect laws
8. perfect police

and let me know when we have:
A. eliminated lying
B. eliminated corruption
C. eliminated stupidity
D. eliminated poor memories, hearing, and eye sight, thanks, Nita1

[jr2007sc]

Norway........so here is a situation that there is NO QUESTION that the man in custody is the one who killed all those people. Where is the room for error?

There is no error. No chance of executing an innocent. If your beef with the death penalty is as Nita 1 says, then you have no argument to NOT execute him.

The only rational argument you may have is if you feel it is morally wrong for the state to kill. Plain & simple. And thats fine if you feel that way.

Well, where do you people stand on Norway?

[Tom's Fork]

Full of shit as usual, JR.

There is a reason not to execute the man: There is a direct one-to-one relationship between the death penalty and the murder rate.

Texas has the highest rate of death penalties of any state. Texas also has the highest murder rate.

Virginia has the second highest rate of death penalties. And the second highest murder rate.

Florida is third in death penalties and in murder rate.

Meanwhile, those states, mostly in the northeast, who have no death penalty have the lowest murder rates.

You cannot stop the self-destructive from self-destructing. Give a self-destructor a chance at the death penalty, he'll go out and murder someone to insure he gets it.

The idea is to reduce the murder rate. The death penalty increases it.

[-V-]

very interesting, tom, almost unbelievable that those are the statistics

jr, i'm ok with the death penalty when there is "NO QUESTION", but i am not going to pull the switch, i'll leave that to you

perhaps we have compromise here

i assume you agree, then, that people should not be put to death when there "IS A QUESTION"?

and, considering there is a question, probably 99.9% of the time
we would have to agree to make executions extremely rare

[jr2007sc]

jr, i'm ok with the death penalty when there is "NO QUESTION", but i am not going to pull the switch, i'll leave that to you

perhaps we have compromise here

i assume you agree, then, that people should not be put to death when there "IS A QUESTION"?

and, considering there is a question, probably 99.9% of the time
we would have to agree to make executions extremely rare

V, I'll join you on that. Fine. We're in agreement.

So the ARMY guy (Major Nidal( sp?) that shot up Fort Hood........fry him right? No question it was him.

The "nut" in Arizona who shot those people and the congresswoman.........fry. No question it was him.

Those animals in CT who raped and brutally murdered those little girls and their mother...........fry............no question

I'm glad we are in agreement. You actually made my day.

[-V-]

terrific, JR.
you still get to indulge your lust for revenge, and i get a significant decrease in executions

that's what running a country calls for -- compromise
so that progress can be made

the GOP used to have some understanding of that
before Obama was elected
and they effectively shut down the government
out of pure election posturing
and something even worse...

[Tom's Fork]

terrific, JR.
you still get to indulge your lust for revenge, and i get a significant decrease in executions...

It's not lust for revenge, -V-man. It's the pure joy of watching someone else die, the greatest power of all, power over life and death.

It's power. It is power.

It.

Is.

Power.

It's power, and nothing else. The joy of watching another die, knowing that you have vicariously just committed the greatest act of power of all.

Revenge? Why, don't you know? All those ultra-rightwingers are evangelical Christians, and vengeance is mine, sayeth the lord. Turn the other cheek, says Jesus. Forgive others their tresspasses, as the lord forgives mine. Surely you would not accuse the lunatic fringe, such as JR, of being anti-god, would you? Why no, of course not - but you can accuse them of being power-mad, and you would be right.

[-V-]

on a deeper level
It Is Fear
Power is how they combat their fear.
but if you've got it...
the fear,
power and money will never make it go away

the only antidote for fear is
:loveit:

"and in the end
the love you take
is equal to the love
you make"

[Tom's Fork]

on a deeper level
It Is Fear
Power is how they combat their fear.
but if you've got it...
the fear,
power and money will never make it go away

Yes!

Control freaks have this problem, yes indeed. See, if they have absolute power over [someone, something] then they have no need to fear.

You may notice it is the very ones who worship at the feet of power who are most likely to be racist, sexist, religionist, whatever -ism they are into.

Can't compete? Reduce the competition. Keep women, blacks, Jews, whatever as second class citizens. Now you don't have to compete against them.

Keep the working and middle class slaves to the powerful. It's all about power.

The death penalty is victory. Yay, my side just won. My power is complete.

You will also notice that the very ones who worship at the feet of power are the ones most likely to be some kinda NRA gun nut.

Like JR, for example. Several months ago, here at POL, I made the statement that people such as Sharon Angle who advocated "Second Amendment solutions" to political dispute should not be allowed weaponry. JR disputed this. I never could get him to agree to the statement; eventually he walked out of the conversation, leaving me the victor.

You have it all, now:

Death penalty is power.

Racism, sexism, religionism is power.

Oppression of the working and middle classes is power.

And hide behind your guns - someone else out there may want power over you.

[-V-]

The death penalty is victory. Yay, my side just won. My power is complete.

as Red demonstrates, indeed, it is "yay, my side just won",
but the power never is complete
it never satisfies enough
because it never was the cure
for the FEAR
so they seek more power
and the fear only increases
because they fear losing the power they attained

it's their own life sentence they've given themselves
in some cases, it ends up as their own death sentence

but it needn't be that way

if they'd only let go of the
:eek:
and let in the
:loveit:

[-V-]

The death penalty is final, appeals notwithstanding. That means the only way I could reasonably support it was if the justice system was perfect, which it's not and will realistically not be ever.

that is, indeed, the most important point. When an innocent is put to death, it means the accuser, prosecuter, judge, jury, and executioner are all accomplices to murder (as well as, to a degree, the governor, congresspeople, and voters who support the lethally flawed policy).