FAQ: "Would you approve the death penalty for someone who massacred your family?" [Archive]

Jennifer_SFBA

12/17/06, 12:46 am

The death penalty is not a deterant for murder. It fact, the opposite is true.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/deterrence.html

http://www.aclu.org/capital/general/10441pub19971231.html

The monetary cost of admistering the death penalty is higher than life in prison without parole.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7

The death penalty does fulfill the human propesity for revenege, an eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth Exodus 21:23-27.

The death penalty does fulfull some human propensities for blood lust.

The death penalty is not punishment. Punishment presupposes correction. Correction is not possible at death.

In not one act or deed did Jesus Christ suggest, intimate, do or say anything supportive of the death penalty. Just the opposite is true, and Jesus himself was subjected to it.

"The death penalty appears to oppose the spirit of the Gospel. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus urges us to replace the old law of an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth with an attitude of charity, even toward those who would commit evil against us (Mathew 5:38-48). When asked for his opinion in the case of the woman convicted of adultery, a crime that carried the penalty of death, he immediately pardoned the offender, while deploring the action, the sin (John 8). It is difficult for us to accommodate Jesus injunction to forgive and love, to reconcile and heal, with the practices of executing criminals." (Statement on Capital Punishment by the Christian Council of Delaware and Maryland?s Eastern Shore)

All people contributing to the death of another whether as judges, jurors, prosecutors, wardens, jailers, witnesses, preparers of executions or executioners, have contributed to murder or have murdered.

Michael DeM

12/18/06, 03:11 pm

The death penalty raises some serious problems. For one thing, at what point do we even consider killing someone as a punishment to begin with? And if we can kill people as a punishment, what's to keep us from considering torture as a form of punishment as well?

Some people say that capital punishment acts as a deterrent to crime as if someone who has gone so far as to contemplate murdering another human being is going to change his mind after finding out that he might be executed instead of getting life in prison with no parole. Most violent criminals probably don't even think about the consequences of their actions or they think they can get away. Some may be high on drugs when they commit their crimes.

Death penalty proponents often say that the criminals deserve to die. While I can understand someone having that kind of sentiment toward violent criminals, especially if any of their family members were killed, it still doesn't make state sponsored killing right.

Michael DeM

12/19/06, 04:10 pm

One more thing. In my opinion, the whole "they deserve it" argument is rooted in the concept of revenge. It's based on the idea that the actions of one person justify the actions of another person. What kind of a message does it send to citizens when the government carries out people's revenge for them? It's not going to undo any wrongdoings that were commited, and it's not going to bring back anyone who was killed. How about just showing a little compassion and mercy? As a society, our goal should be to shine a light on the darkness rather than yelling at it.

Jennifer_SFBA

12/30/06, 06:14 am

A top European Union official, Aid and Development Commissioner, Louis Michel, proclaimed the death penalty not compatible with democracy:

December 30th, 2006 4:39 am
Hanging Saddam "barbaric" - top EU official

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Hanging former Iraqi president Saddam Hussein was "barbaric" and may turn him into a martyr, the European Union's aid and development Commissioner told Reuters on Saturday.

Saddam, who had been convicted of crimes against humanity, was hanged at dawn in the Iraqi capital.

"You don't fight barbarism with acts that I deem as barbaric. The death penalty is not compatible with democracy," Louis Michel told Reuters.

"Unfortunately Saddam Hussein risks to appear as a martyr, and he does not deserve that. He is not a martyr, he committed the worse things," Michel said in a phone interview.

"The death penalty is against the values of the European Union ... we are against by principle, whatever the crimes committed by Saddam Hussein - and he committed horrible ones," Michel said.

Jennifer_SFBA

12/30/06, 07:05 am

There is the report on the Vatican's position against the death penalty in general and against the death penalty for Saddam Hussein in particular below:

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20984984-1702,00.html

Don't kill Saddam, Vatican urges
From correspondents in Rome and Amman

December 28, 2006 11:09pm
Article from: Agence France-Presse

EXECUTING former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein would be "avenging a crime with another crime", the head of the Vatican's Justice and Peace department said.

"We don't think a crime should be avenged by another crime,'' Cardinal Renato Raffaele Martino told the Italian daily La Repubblica in an interview published today.

"The Church proclaims that human life should be protected from conception to natural death,'' said Cardinal Martino, a former papal envoy to the United Nations whose department deals with human rights issues.

"The death penalty is not a natural death. And no one can kill, not even the state,'' he said.

"There are still 30 days left. (The execution order) needs the signature of the President (Jalal Talabani). Things could still happen,'' he said.

Mr Talabani has a personal moral objection to the use of the death penalty, but has in the past signalled that he will step aside and allow his vice presidents to rubber stamp the verdict.

Saddam and two officials of his regime were convicted of crimes against humanity on November 5, after a court was told they ordered the deaths of 148 Shi'ite men from the village of Dujail in an act of collective punishment.

On Tuesday, a panel of appeal court judges confirmed the sentences in a binding and final judgement.

Authorities now have 30 days within which to carry out the execution orders.

Saddam lawyer appealed today to the international commmunity to prevent him being handed over by US forces to the Iraqi authorities for execution.

"I ask all international organisations, the United Nations, the Arab League and world leaders, to intervene urgently with the American administration to prevent Saddam being handed to the Iraqi authorities,'' Saddam's lead lawyer Khalil al-Dulaimi said.

"Saddam is a prisoner of war and according to international law he should not be handed to his enemies,'' he said.

Saddam is being held in a special detention centre run by the US military at a larger base on the outskirts of Baghdad. Although the jail is protected by US troops, Saddam is under the legal authority of the Iraqi court.

Jennifer_SFBA

12/31/06, 12:38 pm

The Los Angeles Times today reported on some of the world's thoughts about the death penalty in the wake of the execution of Saddam Hussein made possible by the turning over of Hussein by Americans who had held him in a Bhagdad prison to Iraqis intent on carrying out his death sentence:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-deathpenalty31dec31,0,33710.story?coll=la-home-headlines

11:17 AM PST, December 31, 2006

THE CONFLICT IN IRAQ: HANGING CONDEMNED

Europeans denounce Hussein's execution

Some leaders, while noting the ex-dictator's atrocities, question whether justice is served by hanging him.

By Tracy Wilkinson and Kim Murphy, Times Staff Writers
December 31, 2006

ROME — The death penalty is anathema across Europe, and opposition to the execution of Saddam Hussein was nearly unanimous among its leaders Saturday. At the same time, however, many were torn between those strongly held beliefs and revulsion for the former Iraqi dictator's record of atrocities.

Some of the strongest criticism came from the Vatican. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that all human life must be respected from conception until its "natural end."

The execution "is tragic news … that risks feeding the spirit of revenge and sowing new violence," said Pope Benedict XVI's spokesman, Father Federico Lombardi.

"Even though this is a person guilty of grave crimes," Lombardi told Vatican Radio on Saturday morning, the execution "is a motive for sadness."

"The killing of a guilty party is not the way to build justice nor to reconcile society."

The Vatican's top official for justice issues, Cardinal Renato Martino, said that Hussein was responsible for thousands of deaths but that executing him amounted to punishing "one crime with another crime." Speaking before the hanging, he said, "The death penalty is not a natural death, and no one, not even the state, can kill."

Several European leaders, spanning the political spectrum, questioned whether justice was served by Hussein's execution and said it could bring further bloodshed.

"We've already seen in the first hours the consequences, with a predictable increase in tension and violence," Italian Prime Minister Romano Prodi said from his home in Bologna.

Spain's center-left government and right-wing opposition, which rarely agree, condemned the hanging of Hussein as well as the late dictator's litany of abuses.

"The death penalty is not justice, it is vengeance, and so it was in this case," Gustavo de Aristegui, a senior official with the opposition Popular Party, told the Spanish news agency EFE. "But nobody will miss Saddam Hussein."

In Britain, Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett reiterated her nation's opposition to the death penalty but applauded the process of bringing the former Iraqi leader to trial.

"I welcome the fact that Saddam Hussein has been tried by an Iraqi court for at least some of the appalling crimes he committed against the Iraqi people. He has now been held to account," Beckett said.

"The British government does not support the use of the death penalty, in Iraq or anywhere else," she said. "We advocate an end to the death penalty worldwide, regardless of the individual or the crime. We have made our position very clear to the Iraqi authorities, but we respect their decision as that of a sovereign nation."

But Menzies Campbell, leader of the opposition Liberal Democratic Party, said: "Saddam's death does not vindicate in any way the ill-conceived and disastrous decision to invade Iraq. His execution does not make an illegal war legal any more than it will put an end to the violence and destruction.

"Britain's interests will best be served by the withdrawal of our forces sooner rather than later."

France, which was a strong opponent of the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, said Hussein's judgment and sentence were a matter for the Iraqi people.

In a statement, the Foreign Ministry said: "France, which advocates like all its European partners the universal abolition of the death penalty, takes note of Saddam Hussein's execution. That decision belongs to the Iraqi people and to the Iraqi sovereign authorities. France calls on all Iraqis to look forward and to work for reconciliation and national unity. More than ever the aim must be a return to the full sovereignty and stability of Iraq."

European politicians who are friendly to Washington stressed — carefully — their unease with the Hussein execution.

"We respect the decision, but it is known that the German government is opposed to capital punishment," German Chancellor Angela Merkel said.

"But on a day like this my thoughts are mostly on the many innocent victims of Saddam Hussein," she said.

Only in Poland, where a conservative government has remained an enthusiastic ally of the Bush administration, was there unequivocal support for the execution.

"Justice has been meted out to a criminal who murdered thousands of people in Iraq," President Lech Kaczynski's spokesman said, according to news agencies.

"This should serve as a warning to all those who would like to follow in Saddam Hussein's footsteps."

Reality Man

01/20/07, 04:37 pm

I've been against the death penalty in all cases, as a matter or conscience, for a long time. Then, fairly recently, I got the job building one of the sourced web sites mentioned in John Grisham's newest book "The Innocent Man" - it's his first non-fiction book and it's about a murder case in Ada, Oklahoma - the specifics of that case will really 'seal the deal' for all those who are sincerely concerned about the hit-and-miss nature of our criminal justice system. It's basically a bad luck lottery with a lot of systemic, built-in bias tilting the balance-beams against certain groups and individuals. The web site is WardAndFontenot.Com (http://www.WardAndFontenot.Com/)

...also, I'm new to the forum, so "Hello, Progressive People!"

Jennifer_SFBA

01/20/07, 11:09 pm

Welcome, Reality Man. I appreciate your thoughtfulness, approach and suave introduction.

Reality Man

01/22/07, 12:20 pm

Thanks Jennifer!

Jennifer_SFBA

01/22/07, 09:24 pm

You are welcome, Reality Man! I love that quote you chose: The Church says the Earth is flat but I know it is round for I have seen it's shadow on the Moon & I trust in shadows more than the Church. - Me too! Ha!

NeoCon Newbie

01/28/07, 05:25 pm

An eye for an eye if someone murders my family I want to see them fry

Mr. Anderson

01/29/07, 01:17 pm

An eye for an eye if someone murders my family I want to see them fry

An "eye for an eye" indeed! You are a good Muslim. Thank you for quoting the Koran. You understand what it means to have your family bombed, tortured and murdered. :p

Jennifer_SFBA

01/29/07, 10:53 pm

Quotations of Mahatma (Great Soul) Ghandi:

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.

Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary.

I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent.

You must be the change you want to see in the world.

What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?

In the attitude of silence the soul finds the path in a clearer light, and what is elusive and deceptive resolves itself into crystal clearness. Our life is a long and arduous quest after Truth.

Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony.

Always aim at complete harmony of thought and word and deed. Always aim at purifying your thoughts and everything will be well.

"If I go into the world to win, to control, to make peace through coercion, or to prove the righteousness of my position --- there is no way I can come to reconciliation. For reconciliation to occur, I need to have a respect for the divine in the opposition and enough humility to know that I don't have all truth on my side." - Gene Knudsen Hoffman

http://www.peaceheroes.com/PeaceHeroes/jeanknudsenhoffman.htm

Gene Knudsen Hoffman, "I'm a Quaker and I've been involved with peace for fifty years." ... "I maintain that we must listen to the oppressor as a human being. The oppressor has grievances, suffering, and we have to listen to both sides. An enemy is a person whose story we have not heard." ... "Restorative justice brings the victim and the perpetrator together."

Jumpin Jupiter

03/16/07, 11:10 pm

The death penalty should always be in effect. This is one of my hard line stances. To me, it makes me sad that someone actually took a life intentionally, but if a person did kill another, premeditated, proof (this is where science is helping us out now) I would have NO PROBLEM throwing the switch. As cynical as that sounds, to me , thats what I believe.

This idea of compassion to the killer, ahh poor victim, is total BS. Tell that to the family he wiped out.

Part of the problem is when people take the stand that the killer has more "rights" than the victim or for the crime that was committed. Judges that take that attitude towards the killer should be taken off the bench.

Will killing someone on death row bring back the person he/she killed? No it wont. All states should put in an express lane to the chambers for those that we are keeping alive for no reason. Save the taxpayers the $$ and move on.

Should this be a deterrant for the rest of society, if used properly, it would. Currently, there is an automatic appeal that takes years and years to go through. Cut the red tape and move em to the head of the line.

Michael DeM

03/17/07, 06:20 pm

Gotta disagree with you, JJ. Look, taking the life of another person is not a particularly desirable thing to do, regardless of the situation. Sometimes it is necessary to take the lives of others in self defense or defense of others. If I had to, then I'd take on a criminal in self defense or fight in a war to defend my country. I would absolutely hate to get into one of those situations, but sometimes you've gotta do what you gotta do. Getting to my point . . . . the death penalty isn't one of those situations. Once a criminal is detained and no longer posing a threat to others, what's the point in killing him? In my mind, it's just state-sponsored revenge killing under the guise of justice.

Jumpin Jupiter

03/18/07, 09:29 pm

Once a criminal is detained and no longer posing a threat to others, what's the point in killing him? In my mind, it's just state-sponsored revenge killing under the guise of justice.

What purpose does it serve to keep them alive then? They are not productive to society, nor are they able to be rehabilitated. Would you trust them if they were let out back into society after 20-30 years of hard time?

Jennifer_SFBA

03/18/07, 09:39 pm

1) By the example and teaching of Jesus Christ himself, the death penalty is morally wrong:

The following at the links below may shed light on why:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/deterrence.html

http://www.aclu.org/capital/general/...b19971231.html

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/arti...did=108&scid=7

Jennifer_SFBA

03/18/07, 10:09 pm

There is a folk song by Joe and Eddie, "There is a Meeting," " ... Satan is a lier and a conger too. Satan is a lier and a conger too. Look out brother or he'll conger you, conger you, conger you. There's a meeting here tonight. There's a meeting here tonight. I can tell by your friendly face, there's a meeting here tonight."

Michael DeM

03/19/07, 10:57 am

What purpose does it serve to keep them alive then? They are not productive to society, nor are they able to be rehabilitated. Would you trust them if they were let out back into society after 20-30 years of hard time?

There's a bit of a moral problem with not keeping them alive. Saying that they're "animals", "scumbags", or "can't be rehabilitated" still doesn't account for the fact that capital punishment involves murdering someone who isn't posing an immediate threat to anybody. No, I probably wouldn't take a chance on letting convicted murderers and rapists go free. I believe there should be more rehabilitation programs to reintroduce convicts back into society, but some crimes are so serious that it may not be worth the risk to let the criminals out of prison. In those cases, they should get life without parole.

Jane of Arc

03/19/07, 12:59 pm

If someone massacred by family would I want them to receive the death penalty?

I would want them skinned and then slowly roasted alive on a BBQ spit in the middle of a town square.

BUT ...

Would I follow through and want them to receive the death penalty?

No.

I know in my soul the teachings of Christ are correct on this subject. And He was a person who was tortured to 'death'. And while He hung there in excruciating pain on the cross being slowly crucified, He looked down on His torturers and said, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."

You do not stop dehumanization with more dehumanization. - Jane of Arc :sunny:

Wafflepudding

04/22/07, 07:58 pm

Jennifer_SFBA

04/23/07, 12:42 am

Human beings are at cause for the creation and perpetuation of a culture of life and nurturance, or the creation and perpetuation of a culture of death and destruction. Many advanced civilizations on Earth today do not have a death penalty, and their murder rates are lower than in America, meaning more people remain alive and are not killed.

Aliens have said to experiencers that this is our world IF we have the maturity to to make it so. Otherwise, aliens say, "Your world is dying." As the video, "The Elohim" says, "The ultimate message is to transcend here on Earth, and find higher consciousness."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCkCMcEs5dw&mode=related&search=

Jane of Arc

04/23/07, 12:29 pm

That's very noble of you Joan, I admire that.

... But I'm not that much of a good guy. Not only would I approve it, I would like to torture them to death myself. Does that make me an inhuman monster? maybe, but truth be told if someone killed my family in cold blood, the last thing I would care about is other people's opinions on morality.

Thank you Pudding.

You're young. You're very smart, but you're still young. I use to feel the way you did.

But really think about. Are you capable of actually torturing someone to death in real life? What would you do to them? Slowly cut pieces off their body with a knife? Pull their fingernails out? Gouge their eyes out with a hot poker? Rape them? Sodomize them? Could you be as sick as they are?

Or would your intellect kick in, and it's a very good intellect you have, Pudding. Would you realize that you weren't raised with that level of brutality in you? Would you understand that people capable of such tortuous deeds were tortured themselves as kids? Would you understand that that was why they acted psychotically and know you are not a psychotic?

And maybe you'd realize that the only way to stop the cycle of violence on this planet is to love the worse of us. Hard to do. Real hard. Love takes courage.

Wafflepudding

04/24/07, 08:00 pm

Alright, I wouldn't torture someone to death. But I still support the death penalty for people that can't be rehabilitated and present a clear danger to society should they ever be released into the public again (think about it, would you ever let Jeffrey Dahlmer or Charles Manson back to society?).

Why? because I know psychopaths can't be rehabilitated (they are incapable of empathy, learning from their mistakes or have ANY sort of morality at all, and they are a danger to others and to themselves), and quite frankly I think locking someone up for the rest of his/her life behind bars is LESS humane than a lethal injection.

Jane of Arc

04/25/07, 02:09 pm

I'm happy you won't torture anybody to death, Pudding. That's good news. I'm relieved. (You make me chuckle.)

Who says psychopaths can't be rehabilitated?

And who says pschopaths can't learn empathy?

And if empathy is the quality that decides psychopathic behavior, are governments with the death penalty suffering from collective psychosis? ;)

Wafflepudding

04/25/07, 04:53 pm

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p960239.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopaths
http://www.hare.org/
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/182/1/5

Also a couple of books on the university library, I don't remember the titles exactly but it had something to do with "abnormal psychology", and "psychopathology".

I can sum it up: psychopaths are persons who are incapable of comprehending the concept of suffering, whether of others or themselves, are incapable of feeling remorse, or any other measure of what we would usually call "humanity". That's the pathology itself and we cannot treat it today because as advanced as psychoactive drugs today are, they cannot instill a capacity that is not there. Neoconservatives don't enter that category because they can and often do avoid exposing themselves to damage and/or risk. The vast majority of psychopaths in fact, excell in our society and present no life threatening risk, however violent psychopaths will not turn back. Some theories hypothesize that the condition is not psychological but biological in origin, caused by a defect in the amygdala (the part of the brain that processes emotions). If that is the case, we will NEVER have the capacity to "cure" a psychopath.

Jumpin Jupiter

04/30/07, 09:46 pm

Jane, can these people that get a "get out of jail free card" that have been rehabilitated come be your neighbor? Then we could find out how much courage your "love" would take. Maybe a psycho that some expert says is now rehabbed can come clean your house or do your lawn for you?

As far as the torture goes, I hope you never have to find out who would want to do what to whom. I do know it takes ALOT of restraint from jumping over the rail in a courtroom (literally 3 feet away) to keep from pounding the living HELL out of someone that has literally taken a life from your family. To torture the person(s) responsible for their actions, give me 5 minutes alone with them, cuz you know the "system" isnt going to do their job. Crime pays now a days, and if you have enough money, you can get away with about anything.

Jane of Arc

05/01/07, 10:31 am

JJ~

If I'm to understand what you're implying a close family member of yours was murdered? I am deeply, deeply sorry if this is the case.

I think crime and a 'sick' society, which we're all part of, has touched us all. I had a close friend murdered by a psycho and another friend gang raped, tortured and left for dead. I had a man try to rape me at gunpoint. And I have a sister who was molested and who knows what else by a 'neighbor'. I understand crime and 'sick' people are everywhere.

I'm trying my hardest, JJ, to become the best person I can be. I want to be part of the solution. There have been great, enlightened teachers that have walked the earth ... like Buddha and Christ and others who present options other than hate, revenge, war and suffering. I was deeply impressed by the actions of the Amish people who dealt with the murders of their family members with compassion and acts of love.

Doesn't some part of you understand what I'm trying to say here, JJ?

And Puddin' ~

I took abnormal psychology in college too. I've read the same books. I am completely pro-science, but they are not the definitive answer when it comes to the human mind much less the human spirit. There have been people operated on who have no brain. Seriously, when they were opened up in surgery ... no brain ... and yet they were functioning, intelligent people??? And there have been people who have had brain surgery and just gobs and gobs of their brains were removed and the person recovered with no change. Science, in short, knows almost diddley squat about these things. And don't get me started on psychiatry and psychology.

We don't live in a world where people rehabilitate each other. There is no system or scientific studies that have measured the effects of seriously deranged psychopaths receiving love and compassion. We are barbarians. We are still in the Stone Age of the human psyche.

Good to have you back. :sunny:

-V-

05/01/07, 04:29 pm

There have been people operated on who have no brain. Seriously, when they were opened up in surgery ... no brain ... and yet they were functioning, intelligent people???

I'd add another dozen or so ?'s to that one Janey!. I'm going to have to call you on that. I know we've had posters on this site that were indeed living examples but if you could provide more info on the "no brainer" i'd love to read about it.

Thelonious

05/02/07, 12:21 am

Jennifer_SFBA

05/02/07, 01:39 am

The question "Would YOU approve the death penalty for someone who massacred YOUR family?" is one of social and moral ethics, attitudes and beliefs, and thoughtful contemplation about people's own emotional reactions, not of juries and whether or not family members of murder victims should sit on them. The question was/is also intended to be provocative for the purpose of motivating comment(s) relative to the question. Nowhere in the question are juries referenced.

Wafflepudding

05/02/07, 02:20 am

You missed Thelonious's point. I think I get it: executions are not dependant on the personal feelings of the parties affected, they depend on the requests of the prosecution, the evidence, and the conscensus of a jury of peers. Thus arguments about "vengeance is not the answer" or hypothetical questions like this one (taken literally and at face value) are pointless.

I also get your point. This is food for thought, it should not be taken literally.

It's good to be back, even if it's shortly.

Jennifer_SFBA

05/02/07, 03:03 am

Public opinion, social values and attitudes drive whether or not there is a death penalty.

Wafflepudding

05/02/07, 03:03 am

JJ~
I'm trying my hardest, JJ, to become the best person I can be. I want to be part of the solution. There have been great, enlightened teachers that have walked the earth ... like Buddha and Christ and others who present options other than hate, revenge, war and suffering. I was deeply impressed by the actions of the Amish people who dealt with the murders of their family members with compassion and acts of love.

I can't speak for JJ but as for myself, I have no desire to emulate Buddha or Christ, and lets not forget Christ died nailed to a cross. That might be breezy if you're supposed to be the son of god and can reincarnate or rise from the dead, but for the rest of us who don't think that way it's not that attractive.

And Puddin' [/B] ~

I took abnormal psychology in college too. I've read the same books. I am completely pro-science, but they are not the definitive answer when it comes to the human mind much less the human spirit. There have been people operated on who have no brain. Seriously, when they were opened up in surgery ... no brain ... and yet they were functioning, intelligent people??? And there have been people who have had brain surgery and just gobs and gobs of their brains were removed and the person recovered with no change. Science, in short, knows almost diddley squat about these things. And don't get me started on psychiatry and psychology.

We don't live in a world where people rehabilitate each other. There is no system or scientific studies that have measured the effects of seriously deranged psychopaths receiving love and compassion. We are barbarians. We are still in the Stone Age of the human psyche.

Good to have you back. :sunny:

That's wonderful, but I didn't take abnormal psychology, I'm majoring in psychology. They are not the definitive answer, science NEVER claims to be the definitive answer, science is just the best answer we can come up with right now, based on current peer-reviewed evidence and/or logic. And I don't need them to know everything, I just trust that the vast majority of neurologists, psychologists and psychiatrists that support that notion of psychopathy know more about the subject than you (no offense intended). A little bit of critical thought tells you no one knows everything about anything, if we had to wait to have absolute knowledge on our actions, nobody would have brain surgery because our knowledge of the brain is (I agree with you here) still on relatively primitive grounds.

I trust that you are literate and well read, but between the woman that has read a few books and taken a few courses and the people with doctorates, years of research, and publications in respected psychology/psychiatry/neurology journals reviewed by their peers, I choose the latter as more likely to be correct in their explanation. Why? because they present evidence supporting their claims, and they are likely to be better versed on the subject.

It's good to be back but I won't be for long, I have lots to do in these two weeks.

Jennifer_SFBA

05/02/07, 11:08 am

Information and answers that come from, are observed from and are gained from the connection between heart, soul and spirit may be trusted to be applied in our world with good intention and results. In the absence of those, there is spiritual death. Let them who have eyes to see, see and they who have ears to hear, hear. Practicioners of the mind and body cut off from soul and spirit working on the psyches and bodies of people - I can hardly think of anything more dangerous focusing on materiality and materialism, results more frightening in application, ie. Joley, Mengele, Gottlieb, Cameron, etc. That's what departments of psychology mostly are now, with notable exceptions in some few departments and schools of humanistic psychology that include the soul and spirit of humankind as part of the course of study, schools on how to manipulate people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKULTRA

http://trance-formation.com/

Jumpin Jupiter

05/03/07, 08:44 pm

This is essentially a very stupid question. Juries which decide these things do NOT have family members of the victims sitting on them. This is not likely to change anytime soon, so ya'll can stop wasting your time pondering hypothetical and impossible situations.

A judge decided this personal case that "I" and my family was involved in, in the state of Indiania. And yes, I and the rest of my family were literally feet away from the guilty party involved. Many hours of lost wages, hopitals critical care units, lawyers, traveling, and many people that I wish I never would have had to meet.

I could gladly give you the court house and court room that this all took place, over this "hypothetical and impossible situations".:mad: Sorry to you that you dont believe what all "we" have gone through, but it makes me :mad: and I will defend my views to those of you whom disbelieve what actually happens in REAL life!

Jane of Arc

05/03/07, 08:53 pm

JJ~

I am truly sorry that you and your family had to endure any such horror. I understand your rage.

Thelonious

05/04/07, 01:33 am

I may have been unclear in my post not long ago. Please let me clarify...

The question: "Would you approve the death penalty for someone who massacred your family?" is, as I see it, really two questions.

The first is the question of approving the death penalty for a BAD person. This is a question for Juries and Judges and the Justice system in general, which must decide if it really has not got one single reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty. Judges and Jury members are required by law to excuse themselves from cases in which they have a personal interest. If they do not do so, they are messing up the justice system.

The second question is how Jennifer describes it. For contemplation. In fact I can never know "How would I behave in this situation....?" for sure without being in the situation.
It is only common sense to assume that I would have strong desires to get revenge, probably in a violent and painful way. It would of course be difficult to handle these feelings. What's the point? We all know this.

Hell, I would approve the death penalty for Donald Rumsfeld. But practically speaking my opinion here is useless. He will never be put to death. Even in my wildest dreams I don't believe he'll ever be tried for human rights violations in The Hague. Even if convicted there, The Hague cannot and will not use the death penalty.
From my point of view, if Jennifer wants to spend a lot of time contemplating the etherial, she can go ahead. I believe that there are much more important concrete and effective things that can be done to improve the world. (for example, I could spend this afternoon wondering if it is really correct to kill Rumsfeld, I mean, what would the Palestinian Carpenter say?. Or I can go downtown to counsel some cronically ill patients (which is in fact what I'm doing this afternoon))

Thelonious

05/04/07, 01:48 am

I can't speak for JJ but as for myself, I have no desire to emulate Buddha or Christ, and lets not forget Christ died nailed to a cross. That might be breezy if you're supposed to be the son of god and can reincarnate or rise from the dead, but for the rest of us who don't think that way it's not that attractive.

Thanks Waffle,
This paragraph is a bit oversimplified, but probably needed to be said. I wholeheartedly agree with its sentiment. :thumbup:

Jennifer_SFBA

05/04/07, 12:13 pm

I do not merely contemplate the etherial, nor simply act materially. What I do is live expansively, threshing chaff from wheat in ways that people of great mind and spirit have always done to know the ways of life and better ways of living in senses of awe and wonder that abound in this great and marvelous and most precious body that facilitates experience.

"As I lived up to the highest light I had, higher and higher light came to me.”

“When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world.”

“Listen to the Exhortation of the Dawn! Look to this Day! For it is Life, the very Life of Life. In its brief course lie all the Verities and Realities of your Existence. The Bliss of Growth, The Glory of Action, The Splendor of Beauty; For Yesterday is but a Dream, And To-morrow is only a Vision; But To-day well lived makes Every Yesterday a Dream of Happiness, And every Tomorrow a Vision of Hope. Look well therefore to this Day! Such is the Salutation of the Dawn!”

Jennifer_SFBA

05/04/07, 03:55 pm

Wisdom and understanding too I gained from Guru Deva:

http://www.srigurudev.net/srigurudev/gurudev/discourses.html

"To get a human body is a rare thing - Make full use of it. There are four million kinds of lives which a soul can gather. After that, one gets a chance to be human - to get a human body. Therefore, one should not waste this chance. Every second in a human life is valuable. If you don't value this, then you will have nothing in hand and will weep in the end. Because you are human God has given you power to think and decide what is good and what is bad. Therefore, you can do the best kind of action. You should never consider yourself weak or a fallen creature. Whatever may have happened to you up to now may be because you didn't know. But, now be careful. After a human body, if you don't reach God, then you have sold a diamond at the price of spinach.

The Melvin Morse, M.D.'s site opens with a graphic of third eye experience:

http://www.melvinmorse.com

Jane of Arc

05/04/07, 06:17 pm

From my point of view, if Jennifer wants to spend a lot of time contemplating the etherial, she can go ahead. I believe that there are much more important concrete and effective things that can be done to improve the world. (for example, I could spend this afternoon wondering if it is really correct to kill Rumsfeld, I mean, what would the Palestinian Carpenter say?. Or I can go downtown to counsel some cronically ill patients (which is in fact what I'm doing this afternoon))

Thelonius,

This is incredibly condescending. You're simultaneously slapping yourself on the back for your efforts to help the cronically ill, while insulting a person here at POL. Jennifer happens to be an individual worth much respect. She often brings great wisdom to our discussions here.

This reminds me of a story about Americans visiting a Buddhist temple. They judged the monks and their religion as lazy and useless because they sat in meditation for days pondering ethereal realities.

I'm sure you're a very good person who does very good deeds. And you're obviously extremely intelligent. But often articulate people as yourself don't realize just how caustic their words can be.

Wafflepudding

05/04/07, 07:05 pm

I don't agree with what he said either, but I can see where he's coming from. To those of us who are not as... metaphysically inclined, sometimes it can be a little frustrating. No offense intended.

Truth be told she reminds me of my mother. During my early teen years she started experimenting with new-age stuff and before you know it the whole house smelled strongly of incense, all sorts of odd books like "Quantum healing" or "The Chinese horoscope" lined the bookshelves, etc etc. Before you know it there was a great rift between us as she was fascinated with her newfound spirituality, and I was still as rational and materialistic as I've always been. Every weekend we'd have a science versus faith clash.

So I guess it's extra frustrating for me. I don't understand it, chances are I'll never see things that way, and that's fine by me, but it's like... Well it's literally like discussing complex issues with someone who speaks a foreign language.

Jane of Arc

05/04/07, 09:17 pm

I understand Puddin'. I do. But I don't see Jennifer disapproving your 'language'. Or anybody's 'language'. She's also well versed in science. I'm just suggesting tolerance and respect for everybody's perspective. We all can learn from each other. We've got some really smart minds here. We've got some really insightful spiritual people here. We're got some cool atheists here. And I think -V- has created this forum in such a tolerant way, where he allows just about anyone the freedom to speak their minds ... it would be grand if that tolerance continues to flow. Don't you think? :sunny:

Jennifer_SFBA

05/04/07, 09:47 pm

Wp, thank you for your honest forthrightness. Your characterization of your mother's spiritual interests and mine too as "new-age stuff" is not correct though. The Chinese horoscope dates back to at least the Yellow Emperor 2697 - 2597 B.C. while the I-Ching dates back to Fu Hsi about 4,000 B.C. and was refined for usefulness on the grand scale by King Wen 1099 - 1050 B.C. There is evidence by ancient texts and ancient drawings and paintings that such advanced teaching was by humanoid extraterrestrial beings who lived among people on Earth.

http://www.halexandria.org/dward451.htm

http://www.empyreanquest.com/home/fuhsi.htm

http://fusionanomaly.net/iching.html

http://www.levity.com/eschaton/waveexplain.html

Theoretical mathmematics, theoretical physics and quantum physics are helping people today understand in greater depth what ancients living much closer to the earth and nature and the cosmos knew long long before now. The ancient I-Ching was employed by Carl Jung.

"Carl Jung's study of the I Ching led to his theory of synchronicity as an acausal connecting principle, but he was unable to see how the flow of archetypes formed meaningful structures in an acausal manner. Synchronicity could be defined as a psychological event, the projection of meaning onto a background of randomness, but Jung left unanswered the question of meaning itself. Does this temporal universe inhabited by biological entities truly have a “meaning?”

Perhaps not a meaning, but at least a “destiny.” One of the commentaries on the I Ching attributed to Con***ius tells us that “the future likewise develops in accordance with the fixed laws, according to calculable numbers. . . This is the thought on which the Book of Changes is based.” Another even older commentary informs us that “counting that which is going into the past depends on the forward movement. Knowing that which is to come depends on the backward movement. This is why the Book of Changes has backward moving numbers.” Clearly the early commentators and interpreters saw the I Ching as something vastly more significant than a simple oracle.

But what exactly? This question was answered by a couple of the century's most brilliant minds. The McKenna brothers, Terence and Dennis, in their groundbreaking work, _The Invisible Landscape_, postulated that the King Wen arrangement contained just such a backward and forward flowing pattern of numbers, and that these numbers could be used to construct an interface with similar vital holons, or holistic hierarchies, in the organization of space/time.

The McKennas demonstrated this by overlaying the 384 lines of the sixty four hexagrams (6 x 64 = 384) on the 13 month lunar calendar (13 X 29.53 days = 383.89 days). They then used these basic units to develop a temporal lock with the solar/sunspot cycle, the Zodiacal Ages, and the length of the Great Year of precessional motion. With the same increment, sixty four, they found it was possible to assemble a 26 step model of space/time from the size/age of the universe down to Planck's Constant. In this view, the I Ching is a fractal model of all that is, was, or will be. It is also hologramic, in that the piece, the I Ching, contains the information of the whole, the evolving universe."

Jennifer_SFBA

05/04/07, 09:48 pm

Continued:

"Applying this realization to the structure of the King Wen arrangement produces a model of the holonic nature of evolution. If we think of the time from the emergence of life on earth to the immediate future, roughly 1.3 billion years, as one increment and then begin to divide that by 64, some interesting time periods are highlighted. Our first division, one 64th of 1.3 billion years, brings us to the high point of the mammals, 18 million years ago. The next division by 64 brings us to 275,000 BCE, the dawn of Homo Sapiens. Dividing again by 64 brings us to the high point of the ancient cultures such as the Egyptian around 2300 BCE. Another division brings us to the mid 20th century and the last 67 + years of the cycle.

According to this view, all of biological and cosmological time is approaching a point of concrescence in the near future. The McKenna brothers went looking for possible dates for this concrescence and decided that the helical rising of the winter solstice sunrise in 2012 matched the requirements. It would certainly be an event of cosmological significance that could serve as a symbol of the concrescence itself. The McKennas found that this date also matched the wave form derived from King Wen's arrangement with historical events. The end of World War II and the atomic bomb, for instance, fell on 1945, the year of the last division, the beginning of the last 67 + years of biological and galactic evolution which completes the vast hexagram of time which began 72.25 billion years ago.

All of the information, “novelty” as the McKennas called it, that was generated in the course of the previous billions of years from the formation of the earth to the present is compressed and recapitulated in the last 67 + years. Therefore we can apply the same scale of division, creating a new hexagramic hierarchy, to this 67 + year period. Within this time period, there are 64 groups of 384 days which cover three major and six minor sunspot cycles. When the wave front of concrescence is applied to the time period, we find that the first node falls on the beginning of the last 384 day cycle. The McKennas suggested that this node marked a shift in “novelty” or information density, equal to that which occurred in 1945 CE, 2300 BCE, 275,000 BCE and so on.

The next node on the concrescence wave happens six days before the shift point and again represents the same kind of acceleration in “novelty.” The first trigram is completed at the next node, 135 minutes from ground zero, and represents another level of acceleration. Novelty continues to speed up at the next node, 127 seconds, and again at the next, 1.98 seconds, and then for the final time at .003 seconds when it accelerates to its maximum. The pattern then inverts and novelty decreases by the same incremental pattern with which it increased. Another round has begun.

The implications of this are staggering if considered from the perspective of the universe's meaning or destiny. Perhaps sentient life developed out of the primal matrix just to be aware of this all important wave of information acceleration as it reaches concrescence. Perhaps the true value of the I Ching is to help us understand the transformative possibilities of living in a moment of rapidly accelerating time.

Terence and Dennis McKenna's work has been validated and expanded upon by others since the first publication of The Inner Landscape in 1975. John Major Jenkins, in his definitive work on the Maya and precession, _Maya Cosmogenesis 2012_, credits the McKennas with having the intuition that the helical alignment with galactic center in 2012 was an important precessional marker. Jenkins' work suggests that the Maya actually based their calendar on such galactic alignments. The work of Moira Timms, in Beyond Prophecies and Predictions and in other articles, suggests that the ancient Egyptians also aligned the Djed pillar with the center of the galaxy. In our recent book, A Monument to the End of Time, my co-author, Jay Weidner, and I demonstrated that the ancient traditions of alchemy and chiliaism in the west are also based on the precessional mysteries."

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:_g2kSZjTGnMJ:prophecyofprophecy.com/board/view.php%3Fid%3Dprophecy1_1%26no%3D8+the+yellow+em peror+i-ching&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us

Wafflepudding

05/04/07, 11:35 pm

Jen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New-age <--- That's what I mean by new age. I would define new age as any modern tendency to look for health, universal meaning or a different cosmovision eclectically on ancient or new religious, spiritual, mystical or esoteric systems. Ayurveda, the chinese horoscope, transcendental meditation, numerology, the supposed healing properties of aluminium silicate compounds, and any other mix of syncretized beliefs that don't fit into a single system of beliefs fit into this concept. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in any of this stuff but I'm not deriding it, it's just not my thing.

Jane: If there's one thing I'll never say here, it's "shut up". I don't disapprove it, I just can't make heads or tails out of it.

Either way, what I'm trying to say is that as much as ethics are necesary, practical and materialistic considerations are necesary too. Spirituality is nice, but you can't pay your rent with it, and you certainly can't enforce the law with it.

Jennifer_SFBA

05/05/07, 12:13 am

Wafflepudding

05/05/07, 01:15 am

We already live in the same world, and at the same time we don't. Perception does not determine reality but it determines what goes into the mind, and in the end isn't it all the same?

I walk another path, with different needs and perks than yours, we all walk different paths, but who knows the destination for these? you? I? No, I am not arrogant enough to claim to know the future, or have any sort of absolute, unquestionable wisdom. You see the universe spiritually, I look at it physically, is it any less a wonder either way? does either way of looking at it rob us of understanding? or do all the different worldviews enrich all of us in some fashion, reminding us that we're merely a small and fragile part of something that spans more time and space than we can imagine?

I do not pretend to be or wish to become a jack of all trades. I follow the path I chose because of who I am, and I think you do the same. But I also believe, that if these are all different views to look at the world, different ways to reach the truth, then truth will prevail in the end, and that won't be bad for any of us.

Thelonious

05/05/07, 01:18 am

Thelonius,

This is incredibly condescending. You're simultaneously slapping yourself on the back for your efforts to help the cronically ill, while insulting a person here at POL. Jennifer happens to be an individual worth much respect. She often brings great wisdom to our discussions here.

This reminds me of a story about Americans visiting a Buddhist temple. They judged the monks and their religion as lazy and useless because they sat in meditation for days pondering ethereal realities.

I'm sure you're a very good person who does very good deeds. And you're obviously extremely intelligent. But often articulate people as yourself don't realize just how caustic their words can be.

Jane,
I have to disagree. I see nothing condescending or insulting in what I wrote. I was simply explaining my point of view.
My brother and I have a similar dispute. My brother likes to play softball, and my attitude is: If you wanna waste your time standing in the grass drinking beer, go ahead, I got more important things to do. And his attitude is: If you wanna waste your time in front of a computer debating with a bunch of liberal kooks, go ahead,
I got more important things to do.
And my brother and I both respect each other and life is fine.

Thelonious

05/05/07, 01:23 am

Jane,
By the same argumentation that you use, I can claim that Jennifer has been condescending and insulting to Waffle here....boasting about eschewing materialism, and describing his life as materialism for the sake of materialism. Bit arrogant I'd say.

Wp, we're not on the same wavelength. You profess materialism for its' own sake. I eschew materialism in that way, for I see and experience spirit in all things of the material world....

bit caustic don't you think?

Jane of Arc

05/05/07, 09:58 am

Puddin' and Thelonius,

You don't think you were condescending or dismissive? Okay. Maybe I overreacted. I apologize. If I overreacted it's because my perspective is that people of science and people of consciousness are endangered species in this world of vast religiosity and institutionalized doctrines. And both need to be protected.

And Puddin' you say: "Spirituality is nice, but you can't pay your rent with it, and you certainly can't enforce the law with it." I understand what you mean. I was an atheist for a while and needed to be one to set myself free from my religious upbringing and what I felt was a brainwashed society. I found enormous freedom in breaking away and thinking anew for myself. But, once free and after a series of personal events (too long for this post), I realized science and consciousness are BOTH physical and students of both are on parallel paths seeking the same empirical truth.

And I say empirical because I have created wealth, jobs and "paid my rent" with consciousness. To be continued ...

Once again, I apologize. :sunny:

Wafflepudding

05/05/07, 11:02 am

At least from my part, no apology is necesary. I overreact often as well. It is the burden of a passionate personality.

Either way this is straying off topic. Like I said before, I do agree with the death penalty, but not the way it is being carried out right now. The death penalty should only be applied to people who constitute a permanent liability to society, are guilty of particularly heinous crimes, and would endanger the rest of society if released. By this I'm talking about serial killers, some types of cultists, etc, in other words only in extreme and rare cases.

Jennifer_SFBA

05/05/07, 03:45 pm

Jennifer_SFBA

05/05/07, 03:59 pm

Wp, we're not on the same wavelength. You profess materialism for its' own sake. I eschew materialism in that way, for I see and experience spirit in all things of the material world. I know I would not at all like to live in your materialist world and/or worldview, nor would you in mine as you suggested in the families thread I began and as you have pointed out in your reply above. Inevitably, then, I will go my way and you yours. May peace be between us, as east is east and west is west, and never (that) twain shall meet.

I can claim that Jennifer has been condescending and insulting to Waffle here....boasting about eschewing materialism, and describing his life as materialism for the sake of materialism. Bit arrogant I'd say.

bit caustic don't you think?

Thelonius, I did not "boast." I did not "condescend." I did not "insult." I did not present my view in an "arrogant" manner. What I said and what I say is not "caustic." All of those characterizations of me made by you toward me are all of those things though, projecting.

I do not merely contemplate the etherial, nor simply act materially. What I do is live expansively, threshing chaff from wheat in ways that people of great mind and spirit have always done to know the ways of life and better ways of living in senses of awe and wonder that abound in this great and marvelous and most precious body that facilitates experience.

"As I lived up to the highest light I had, higher and higher light came to me.”

“When we acknowledge that all of life is sacred and that each act is an act of choice and therefore sacred, then life is a sacred dance lived consciously each moment. When we live at this level, we participate in the creation of a better world.”

“Listen to the Exhortation of the Dawn! Look to this Day! For it is Life, the very Life of Life. In its brief course lie all the Verities and Realities of your Existence. The Bliss of Growth, The Glory of Action, The Splendor of Beauty; For Yesterday is but a Dream, And To-morrow is only a Vision; But To-day well lived makes Every Yesterday a Dream of Happiness, And every Tomorrow a Vision of Hope. Look well therefore to this Day! Such is the Salutation of the Dawn!”

Wisdom and understanding too I gained from Guru Deva:

http://www.srigurudev.net/srigurudev...iscourses.html

"To get a human body is a rare thing - Make full use of it. There are four million kinds of lives which a soul can gather. After that, one gets a chance to be human - to get a human body. Therefore, one should not waste this chance. Every second in a human life is valuable. If you don't value this, then you will have nothing in hand and will weep in the end. Because you are human God has given you power to think and decide what is good and what is bad. Therefore, you can do the best kind of action. You should never consider yourself weak or a fallen creature. Whatever may have happened to you up to now may be because you didn't know. But, now be careful. After a human body, if you don't reach God, then you have sold a diamond at the price of spinach.

The Melvin Morse, M.D.'s site opens with a graphic of third eye experience:

http://www.melvinmorse.com

The above was my response to your saying, Thelonius,

From my point of view, if Jennifer wants to spend a lot of time contemplating the etherial, she can go ahead. I believe that there are much more important concrete and effective things that can be done to improve the world. (for example, I could spend this afternoon wondering if it is really correct to kill Rumsfeld, I mean, what would the Palestinian Carpenter say?. Or I can go downtown to counsel some cronically ill patients (which is in fact what I'm doing this afternoon))

Jennifer_SFBA

05/05/07, 09:37 pm

and, Thelonius, to this also that you said:

I can't speak for JJ but as for myself, I have no desire to emulate Buddha or Christ, and lets not forget Christ died nailed to a cross. That might be breezy if you're supposed to be the son of god and can reincarnate or rise from the dead, but for the rest of us who don't think that way it's not that attractive.

Thanks Waffle,

This paragraph is a bit oversimplified, but probably needed to be said. I wholeheartedly agree with its sentiment. :thumbup:

Wafflepudding

05/05/07, 10:54 pm

I'm sorry, but exactly what is wrong with what I said?

Not all life is precious, though all life has intrisic value, I'm not saying killing is ok. If we were living under a deterministic universe perhaps, but life is what you make of it and you put value on your life. You can't put a price on life, but that doesn't mean you can't prioritize, which in some situations is necesary.

I'm not talking about the money you earn, or the things you own, I'm talking about the impact you have on the world, and the kind of person you are. I know you think all life is precious but quite frankly if faced with a choice between saving a guilty convict's life and saving an innocent kid, you bet I'll choose the kid. How many people would save the convict instead?

How about a member of your family versus a regular person? how about feeding your own kids instead of starving ones in Africa? You could definitely support many kids for the same costs of a single one in America. Are they any less alive? any less human? is their life worthless? can you justify saving one precious life over several equally precious lives? No, but sometimes we don't have a right choice. Hell I got no compulsions about it, how about something a tad less extreme. Between pulling neocon newbie or jane out of a burning building, I'd pull jane. Between NN and Anderson? Anderson, between NN and V? V. Between a doctor and NN? the doctor. Are their lives worth more? To me, sure. Even if I don't agree with them, or if i hate the doctor, quite simply they contribute more to society, and will make a more positive impact on the world than a troll that can't even type or form coherent thoughts. And I don't feel bad about it at all.

We all put a value on life, daily. Quite simply, all lives have worth but not all lives have the same worth. It sounds horrible, I know, but I think that's just how the world, today, works.

-V-

05/06/07, 10:43 am

Waf, i do appreciate your pulling me out of a burning building before NN but our lives are of the same worth, regardless of our subjective usefulness to society.

Regarding execution, it is never the case between choosing the criminal or the child. The choice is only between killing the criminal or imprisoning them. While I agree that, in some cases it can actually be more merciful to execute someone rather than put them in a cage for life, it is not our decision when to terminate that life.

Society created the monster and society must deal with it for the rest of its natural life.

Just as with animal slaughter, the "right thing" can be measured by asking oneself what they would be willing to do themselves. I could never pull the lever that would fry a human being and I could never order someone else to do it for me.

IF there was no chance it was a false conviction, I would, however, be open minded to granting someone their death wish if that was their preference and they were doing life without the chance of parol.

Wafflepudding

05/06/07, 11:54 am

1) I disagree, and I think you missed the point of the metaphor. If all lives have the same worth, how then do you choose to save one over another? or many over one? or viceversa? what puts value on life? god? feelings? thoughts? actions? sentience? age? these questions are not easy to answer.

2) If we can be absolutely certain that we can keep these persons locked up and that they will NEVER hurt or kill anyone else, then yes, you are correct. However this brings up another issue.

The alternative to the death sentence for people who constitute a permanent liability to society is life sentence in a supermax prison. Supermax prisons let prisoners out of their cells for two hours a day, the rest of the time they are in solitary confinement, undergo sensory deprivation, are supervised 24/7 with electronic surveilance, they cannot work, and have little or no access to leisure activities. http://www.paglen.com/pages/projects/carceral/shu.htm

The way I see it, the choice is between a tortured existance that shatters whatever fragile threads of sanity the person had, or death. Death sounds fine compared to life on a supermax.

Jane of Arc

05/06/07, 12:41 pm

Let's turn the world upside down, shall we?

There are other options than killing and incarcerating murderers.

The majority of this nation is "Christian", right? So ... let's turn the other cheek, love thine enemy and do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Let's attempt something that's NEVER been tried before. Let's try to heal all criminals. Using the same money, we could turn our prisons into compassionate, healing, loving environments. Instead of punishing them, let's try to cure them. It just might work.

:sunny:

(I can see the heads shaking from here. Foolish girl. We have to kill them, not reward them!)

Wafflepudding

05/06/07, 01:00 pm

You're talking about a penal system reform, which is much needed and I would support. But you still have not adressed the practical issues of rehabilitiation, mainly that it can't work all the time.

The way I see it, that's wishful thinking. I agree, most felons can be rehabilitated but the kind that go into supermax prisons can't, and nobody in their right mind would want to move in next to David Berkowitz no matter who the hell told you he was rehabilitated.

Coincidentally if psychology/psychiatry knows "diddley-squat" about the human mind, then how do we know that an inmate has been "rehabilitated"? how can we cure them? it turns out we don't know enough to diagnose but we know how to cure? nonsense I say.

More than that, you think we can rehabilitate everyone based on... what?

Jane of Arc

05/06/07, 03:38 pm

Puddin',

My "love" rehabilitation is based on what you ask? Hell, based on nothing. It's never been done to my knowledge. No penal system on earth has ever tried to care/ love criminals. I just Googled it for 10 min. Couldn't find a thing.

We're still Neanderthals. The human brain is still, for the most part, an enigma. Treatment is a crap shoot. Different kinds of psychotherapy for different kinds of people can really work. Different kinds of religions for different kinds of people can work. Scientology can kick ass on issues of fear. Massage has had a freaky success rate on certain mental illnesses. Hell, drugs can sometimes kick ass. Chanting and meditation lowers blood pressure. Exercise. Accupuncture. Belly dancing is fun. Education for a sense of purpose. Aromatherapy just 'cause it smells good. Peace pipes and peyote. Primal scream therapy. Hell, the bottom line is they're human beings. Criminal or not. (I think most people are criminals, liars, theives and muderers of something, but that's another post.) And human beings respond the best when treated with attention, consideration, respect and love. Yes, love the criminals to help them rejoin society. What's so hard to understand about that? Makes sense to me.

The reality is prisons are a corporate cash cow. We don't save people. We don't cure society. We capitalize on prison. I live in a Christian nation and I've yet to meet a Christian.

Jennifer_SFBA

05/06/07, 04:25 pm

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh, God. Jane, now you've got me going! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, Oh, GOD!

Good on yer, Jane!

What we need is a new world. It's up to us to help create it and make it so.

Michael DeM

05/06/07, 05:01 pm

It's never been done to my knowledge. No penal system on earth has ever tried to care/ love criminals. I just Googled it for 10 min. Couldn't find a thing.

Not so fast there, Jane. I was watching a documentary about a year ago called "To Kill or to Cure?" which showed how a few different countries approach crime, and as it turns out there are indeed criminal justice systems out there that are quite caring. In Finland, which probably has the most compassionate system, convicts are sent to a commune molded in the form of a suburban neighborhood where they have to learn to be regular, law abiding citizens. Other countries like Canada don't go that far, but they still try to focus more on rehabilitation than punishment. Either way, I agree with you that our criminal justice system here in America needs to do more to help criminals rejoin society. It would be a shame to see all of those people waste away in jail cells when they could actually be doing something with their lives.

Jennifer_SFBA

05/06/07, 05:28 pm

Criminals are running the country. Congress writes the laws that exempt government leadership from prosecution for criminal acts. The Supreme Court sustains laws that exempt government leadership from prosecution for criminal acts. Wealthy people are treated differently in law that people who are not wealthy. Corporations break laws they dont like at will and pay politicians to get them changed when they can. America is corrupt! Money RULES in America. How do you rehabilitate a criminal back into a society that is itself corrupt and where greed and wealth and corruption rule? You don't.

Wafflepudding

05/06/07, 05:32 pm

O...kay, I really don't think you can soften a rapist through potpurri. If anything the feminine scent might get him riled up :p . And scientology is a scam, there's plenty of information out there that clarifies why (and quite simply a religion that demands money in exchange for spiritual benefit is bs).

I would question the "crap shoot" analogy as well. Psychotherapy is hardly a crapshoot. Different schools of psychology are effective depending on the type of person who is being treated and the problem they are dealing with, and this is as predictable as figuring out what kind of tools you need to use on a certain car model. If you try to resolve everyone's problems through behaviorism, or RBT, or humanism alone, you will fail, period, because not everyone adapts to the same therapy.

What I'm saying here is, I'm not a professional, I'm still a student, but I think you have some serious misconceptions as to what the cosa nostra is about.

Jen: That's all very nice but.. That is all true, yes, but it has nothing to do with pedophiles, car thiefs, murderers, etc.

Personally I think a combination of RBT, behaviorism and drug therapy might be best to rehabilitate most common criminals, and might work in some murderers, but it's hard to say.

Jennifer_SFBA

05/06/07, 05:39 pm

This is our country too! Get together with people of like mind and heart, build a political platform (Greens have a pretty good one), educate the people about the way things are and what you and your party are doing to change it, get the people involved in the process of change, build the voting constituency you need to win, and change the system.

Jennifer_SFBA

05/06/07, 05:55 pm

So, there is not any relationship between money, haves and have nots, values based on materialism and car thievery, murder, robbery, drug abuse, etc.? Money by any means necessary is not only moral in America, money is God in America - In God We Trust is printed on America's money backed by nothing except people "faith" in it.

Wafflepudding

05/06/07, 07:15 pm

No, I'm saying corporations have nothing to do with serial killers. I'm saying GE didn't create the unabomber, I'm saying that crime, debauchery and manslaughter existed long before modern capitalist societies and will exist long after. The Soviet union didn't have "in god we trust" on the ruble, or a culture of consumption yet they produced the Rostov ripper.

Man has killed man since the beggining of time, and every new frontier has brought new ways and places to die, how (and why) could the future be any different? Are you saying that in a spiritualist society there won't be the ocassional nutcase who peels off people's faces and wears them as masks? Suddenly everyone will learn to sit and discuss their problems politely? please.

There's a lot of problems that can be traced back to that neoliberal capitalist and consumerist society of the modern western world, but it just so happens that violent crime, and all crime in general, is a worldwide issue that has occured since the dawn of man, and ancient societies before "materialism" was even a word already had their share of violent crime. It would be quite difficult, if not impossible, to find a society where a crime was never commited.

Jennifer_SFBA

05/06/07, 10:33 pm

Who is Blackwater working for besides the U.S. government? Who was Enron involved with for a gas pipeline before they went bankrupt, and guess where, Afghanistan? The Talliban! Corporations have their own para militaries. Corporations have their own banks pursued by "economic hitmen," - books -"Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins and "A Game As Old As Empire" by John Christensen and "The Grand Chessboard" by Zbigniew Brzezinski. Corporations kill more of Our planet's people and more of our Earth's ecosystems, and thereby, other beings, than governments.

Jennifer_SFBA

05/06/07, 11:05 pm

Ok, we can learn from Social Anthropology. Contrast the Yanamamo and the Pygmy cultures. We can learn from advanced Western cultures. Contrast Scandinavian countries with North America. We can learn from one country alone, Venezuela, Venezuela before Hugo Chavez and Venezuela with Hugo Chavez.

America is spiritually and morally bankrupt. Materialism and greed have done that, and now, because of greed, America and the world is headed for another Great Depression. How many, because of their addiction to money and wealth, have died, are dying and will die for that cause?

America is the cause of great suffering in the world, inside the United States of America and outside of the United States of America. The CIA traffics drugs to minorities in America. HIV-AIDS was created and loosed on the world by the United States of America.

Jennifer_SFBA

05/07/07, 03:46 am

We live in an insane world. Many major governments have secret, classified military projects with HUGE sums of tax money going into them, employing hundreds of thousands of "ordinary" "intelligent" people to design and employ weapons systems for the purpose of killing untold numbers of human beings and destroying life supporting and life sustaining networks, human and natural.

At the same time, most major governments have NO department of peace and reconciliation.

That MUST change!

-V-

05/07/07, 02:02 pm

No, I'm saying corporations have nothing to do with serial killers. I'm saying GE didn't create the unabomber.

if i had more time i'd present the case as to why corporation have a lot to do with serial killers and how GE did create the unabomber.

Wafflepudding

05/08/07, 11:29 pm

Is that a raincheck? I'll hold you to it.

If I can remember it that is...

bigtex

08/28/08, 08:52 pm

America is the cause of great suffering in the world, inside the United States of America and outside of the United States of America. The CIA traffics drugs to minorities in America. HIV-AIDS was created and loosed on the world by the United States of America.

OK........first do you have any hard proof that "The CIA traffics drugs to minorities in America" and/or "HIV-AIDS was created and loosed on the world by the United States of America"??????? you know i might be a big country redneck and i might not understand what all you city folk do,but......doesn't it sound a little crazy to say that America "traffics drugs to minorities" and created HIV-AIDS. like i said before, do you have any proof?? or is this just some conspiracy theory.

i know that America is not perfect and i know that we have a horrible past. but look at all the good a America has done. If it was not for us Germany and/or Nazi-Germany would probably have taken over the world. We saved England and France twice. Their are numerous countries and peoples that owe their lives to America, for we have fought for their freedom when no one else would. And i am guessing that you are totally against the war in Iraq. But if you would.......we freed the Iraqi people from a murderous dictator (and he was evil, he used chemical warfare on his own people) and we have almost also helped create a Democratic government in Iraq, which is good because we have another friend in the Middle East. i would go on more but i am getting tired. but i hope you get my point. and i am sure i didn't change you mind. i am just letting you know how a Conservative views the greatest nation on earth!!!! AMERICA!! USA!!!

from an old country song:

"when your runnin' down my country man, your walkin on the fightin side of me!!!"

Jennifer_SFBA

08/28/08, 11:11 pm

Thank you for asking for proof of CIA drug running in minority neighborhoods in America. The link I am posting for you below is for you to see the video at that link featuring Republican Michael Rupert, ex- South Los Angeles narcotics officer who provides proof of CIA drug running in minority neighborhoods in America:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7009998324250484369&q=michael+ruppert+drugs&hl=en

Thank you too for asking for evidence that the United States of America created and loosed HIV-AIDS in our world. I recommend you read several books on that. One is "Emergering Viruses AIDS & EBOLA Nature, Accident or Intentional" by Leonard G. Horowitz, D.M.D., M.A., M.P.H.

There is documented evidence that a disease which could be recognized as AIDS has been worked on for years. Testimony before a sub-committee of the House Appropriations Committee, in Washington, D.C., in 1969, for Department of Defense appropriations for 1970, stated:

"Within the next 5 to 10 years, it would probably be possible to make a new infective micro-organism which could differ in certain important respects from any known disease-causing organisms. Most important of these is that it might be refractory to the immunological and therapeutic processes upon which we depend to maintain our relative freedom from infectious disease. (R. Harris and J. Paxman, A Higher Form of Killing, 1982, p. 241)

The money was approved! By 1972, this potential new micro-organism was described so clearly that there is little doubt that it is AIDS:

An attempt should be made to ascertain whether viruses can in fact exert selective effects on immune function, e.g., by ... affecting T cell function as opposed to B cell function. The possibility should also be looked into that the immune response to the virus itself may also be impaired if the infecting virus damages more or less selectively the cells responding to the viral antigens."

This is beyond question a clinical description of the function of the AIDS virus! But it appeared, of all places, in the Bulletin of the World Health Organization, Vol. 47, pp. 257-74, in 1972.

Then there is this video about the origin of AIDS given by Dr. Robert Strecker:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1349285080949254539&hl=en

Jennifer_SFBA

08/29/08, 10:14 am

There is a new book out that shows that the one world government is the NAZI "Fourth Reich," meaning, the NAZIs were not defeated in World War II, but following that war, took control in America and the world to bring into our world the New World Order that is the second rise of NAZISM, the Fourth Reich. The Bush family and the Rockefellar family among many other prominant familes at the time leading up to World War II, funded Hitler to bring him to power, then advocated through their influence in American government at the time that President Roosevelt enter the second world war on the side of Germany. The entire NAZI spy apparatus was imported in whole into America at the end of World War II, replaced the OSI and became the CIA:

INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST JIM MARRS: "Throw out everything you think you know about history. Close the approved textbooks, turn off the corporate mass media, and whatever you do, don't believe anything you hear from the government—The Rise of the Fourth Reich reveals the truth about American power. In this explosive new book, the legendary Jim Marrs, author of the underground bestseller Rule by Secrecy, reveals the frighteningly real possibility that today the United States is becoming the Fourth Reich, the continuation of an ideology thought to have been vanquished more than a half century ago.

This concept may seem absurd to those who cannot see past the rose-colored spin, hype, and disinformation poured out daily by the media conglomerates—most of which are owned by the very same families and corporations who supported the Nazis before World War II. But as Marrs precisely explains, National Socialism never died, but rather its hideous philosophy is alive and active in modern America. Unfortunately, most people cannot understand the shadowy links between fascism and corporate power, the military, and our elected leaders.

While the United States helped defeat the Germans in World War II, we failed to defeat the Nazis. At the end of the war, ranking Nazis, along with their young and fanatical protégés, used the loot of Europe to create corporate front companies in many countries, including the United States of America. Utilizing their stolen wealth, men with Nazi backgrounds and mentalities wormed their way into corporate America, slowly buying up and consolidating companies into giant multinational conglomerates. Many thousands of other Nazis came to the United States under classified programs such as Project Paperclip. They brought with them miraculous weapon technology that helped win the space race but they also brought their insidious Nazi philosophy within our borders. This ideology based on the authoritarian premise that the end justifies the means—including unprovoked wars of aggression and curtailment of individual liberties—has gained an iron hold in the "land of the free and the home of the brave."

For the first time Jim Marrs has gathered compelling evidence that an effort has been underway for the past sixty years to bring a form of National Socialism to modern America, creating in essence a modern empire—or "Fourth Reich"!"

Books are available and ready to ship.

Book will be signed by Jim Marrs.

$31.95

At the link below is an interview of Jim Marrs by journalist Linda Moulton Howe about his latest well researched book, "The Rise of the Fourth Reich The Secret Societies That Threaten to Take Over America."

At the link below is a video of an American concentration camp ready to go:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=277826260716604258&q=fema+camp

At the link below is a video by Bill Moyers about the American secret government:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3505348655137118430&q=bill+moyers+secret+government&ei=LtKHSKPmFpXCqAP2qqHACA

At the link link below is a video link of President John F. Kennedy warning about the dangers of secret societies operative in America:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=john+kennedy+secret+societies&hl=en&sitesearch=#q=john%20kennedy%20secret%20societies&hl=en&sitesearch=&start=0