[Thelonious]

The Saudis are really worried. With oil at it current prices alternative technologies are cost effective. If oil prices continue to rise electric cars, ethanol from Brazilian sugar, windmills, and solar farms will become dirt cheap by comparison. The Saudis really want to bring the price down, because they know if they don't very large sections of the world economy will switch off oil and they'll be out of business. See article:


http://www.economist.com/world/africa/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11592833&CFID=12710802&CFTOKEN=10405159

[Thelonious]

BTW,
the Economist magazine says it is not the speculators driving up the price.

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11670357&CFID=12710802&CFTOKEN=10405159

remember folks that not only demand and supply determine a price on a commodity market, but also perceptions of future supply. if traders think that there could be more bloody chaos in Nigeria disrupting supply, they will bid higher. if traders think that Dubya will bomb Iran [or sexy crooner John McCain will] then they will bid higher. today's prices iinclude fears and hopes about future supply and future demand.

[JamesP]

As usual, "inside the box" economic thinking (the economist!). Speculation on energy should be ended... and energy speculators should have their heads lopped off in the public square just to nicely illustrate the point. They aren't in Vegas and this is no "game".

Real change is within our grasp.... if we can just put the champions of unregulated capitalism in a different kind of box (prison cell) and think and act our way out of the box they'd like to bury us in: "maximize profit for a few at massive expense to the many" and then "lie & confuse" them into inaction.

Yes, we can.

[Thelonious]

As usual, "inside the box" economic thinking (the economist!). Speculation on energy should be ended... and energy speculators should have their heads lopped off in the public square just to nicely illustrate the point. They aren't in Vegas and this is no "game".

Real change is within our grasp.... if we can just put the champions of unregulated capitalism in a different kind of box (prison cell) and think and act our way out of the box they'd like to bury us in: "maximize profit for a few at massive expense to the many" and then "lie & confuse" them into inaction.

Yes, we can.

James,
Calling them names does not make me believe that you have the answers and they don't.
Give me a convincing argument. Back up what you say a bit. I personally am not sure about how strong/bad the influence of speculators is. But what you have written has in no way led me to believe that you are correct. You sould like a cheerleader "we're the best. we're the best. we're the best"... not like a real football analyst who describes the strengths and weaknesses of each team.

[Thelonious]

if we can just put the champions of unregulated capitalism in a different kind of box (prison cell)

Who are these "champions of unregulated capitalism"???

Where will we find them?

What crime have they committed, that they will be convicted of???

Aren't you just spouting dramatic rhetoric which means nothing again?

[Thelonious]

As usual, "inside the box" economic thinking (the economist!).

It's been a long time now since Waffle asked you to explain what "thinking outside the box" looks like.
You still haven't answered. Hmmmm. Maybe it means thinking like this "Prices are high. That's bad. Lock up anyone who sells gas for more than $0.25 per gallon. Arrest them and jail them. Anyone who has made money in the stock market... lock 'em up. This is not Vegas. This is not a game. Anyone who believes that supply and demand have anything to do with market prices, send 'em to the James school of Reality... where they're outside the box all the time"

[Thelonious]

And while we're on the subject... I certainly do not agree with everything I read in the Economist magazine, but that is good. Reading opposing viewpoints is healthy... it expands my thinking... it helps me stay open-minded... it helps me to consider other options I hadn't thought of before...

James I am absolutely willing to consider your "out of the box" thinking... but when I asked you why supply and demand no longer apply, you said nothing... so you are leading a revolution in the field of economics but... you haven't given us anything to believe in... besides "It's not Vegas!" :)

[Magi2]

Oh my........do I dare say the word ..........regulation?

The "Pigs at the trough" are eating "We The people" live!

First article after reading POL:

http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/11/bush-and-bernanke-going-mental-over-sallie-and-fannie/

Bush and Bernanke Going Mental over Freddie and Fannie
By: Scarecrow Friday July 11, 2008 5:03 am

The Bush Administration is about to psych out over the extent of America's mental recession. The regime that refuses to regulate any part of the economy if it can get away with it is about to take over and bail out two of the largest corporations in the shattered housing business.

From today's NYT:

WASHINGTON — Alarmed by the growing financial stress at the nation’s two largest mortgage finance companies, senior Bush administration officials are considering a plan to have the government take over one or both of the companies and place them in a conservatorship if their problems worsen, people briefed about the plan said on Thursday.

The companies, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, have been hit hard by the mortgage foreclosure crisis. Their shares are plummeting and their borrowing costs are rising as investors worry that the companies will suffer losses far larger than the $11 billion they have already lost in recent months. Now, as housing prices decline further and foreclosures grow, the markets are worried that Fannie and Freddie themselves may default on their debt.

Under a conservatorship, the shares of Fannie and Freddie would be worth little or nothing, and any losses on mortgages they own or guarantee — which could be staggering — would be paid by taxpayers.
skip

Now they have to be bailed out to keep the housing industry from completely collapsing . . . further. Just another consequence from the self-enriching folks who advise the McCain campaign, who thought it would be really swell to leave the nation's financial industry woefully under-regulated, while it made them rich. Sorry about the whining.




So the middleclass taxpayer bails "The Pigs at the trough" out yet again as the price of oil and gas and everything else goes through the roof!

[Magi2]

Don't neglect to read these pertinent aticles esp. this about Graham & ENRON........
http://firedoglake.com/2008/05/28/mccains-cronies-phil-gramm-r-enron-and-his-ubs-lobbying-problem/

The one person in the Enron scandal whom congress is not likely to subpoena is its own revered Phil Gramm, the retiring Republican Senator from Texas. Gramm and his wife, Wendy, have tight links to Enron, Wendy being a director and Gramm the pusher of legislation that assisted the company during its troubles last year....

Read that entire article. The entire sordid tale of Gramm family entanglement in the Enron mess has to be read to be believed. Take the Bush/Cheney Administration policies...and then add some zeroes to what you could expect from Gramm at the helm of the nation's economic policy decisions. This snippet from a Molly Ivins column sending him out of the Senate with appropriate fanfare sums it up nicely:

...Gramm, the great crusader against government spending, has spent his entire life on the government tit. He was born at a military hospital, raised on his father's Army pay, went to private school at Georgia Military Academy on military insurance after his father died, paid for his college tuition with same, got a National Defense Fellowship to graduate school, taught at a state-supported school, and made generous use of his Senate expense account. In 1987, a Dallas developer named Jerry Stiles flew a construction crew to Maryland to work on Gramm's summer home. Stiles spent $117,000 on the project but was kind enough to bill Gramm only $63,433. When Stiles got in trouble for misusing funds from a savings and loan he owned, Gramm did him some "routine" favors with regulators. Stiles was later convicted on 11 counts of conspiracy and bribery.

As a member of the Senate Finance Committee and the recipient of enormous banking contributions, Gramm did an even bigger favor for the financial industry in 1999 when he sponsored the Financial Services Modernization Act allowing banks, securities firms, and insurance companies to combine. The bill weakened the Community Reinvestment Act, which requires banks to help meet the credit needs of low- and moderate-income neighborhoods. Gramm described community groups that use the CRA as "protection rackets" that extort funds from the poor, powerless banks. The bill is also a disaster for the privacy of bank customers and weakens regulatory supervision. As Gramm proudly declared, "You're not going to find a single bank, insurance company, or securities company that will say they were hurt financially by this bill."

To be fair, Gramm occasionally found it in his heart to assist the poor -- like the time he suggested that mothers on welfare would be better off working for $2.50 an hour. A more typical Gramm vote, though, came on an energy bill that benefited oil and gas companies at the expense of consumers. "There are winners and losers in every economic decision," Gramm said portentously. He was then getting more oil and gas money than any other member of the Senate....

Nice company you keep, Sen. McCain.


http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/10/mccains-cronies-phil-gramm-says-economic-difficulties-mental-recession/

and.........

http://www.samefacts.com/archives/corruption_in_washington_/2008/05/john_mccain_phil_gramm_and_ubs.php

May 27, 2008
John McCain, Phil Gramm, and UBS
Posted by Mark Kleiman
Phil Gramm, while advising John McCain on banking and housing policy, was lobbying for ... a bank.

And not just any bank: he was lobbying for UBS, which was running a tax-evasion racket out of its private banking arm, helping rich Americans stick the rest of us suckers with the tab for, e.g., the war in Iraq. UBS has now told 50 of its European employees that they should (1) lawyer up, at the company's expense and (2) not travel to the U.S., presumably for fear of arrest.

[Magi2]

About the Enron loophole:
http://www.pensitoreview.com/2008/06/22/closing-enron-loophole-would-drop-oil-prices/

ARCHIVES
Closing Enron Loophole Would Drop Oil Prices 25% - 50% Overnight
Jon Ponder | Jun. 22, 2008

Update: Obama Proposes Closing the Enron Loophole:
Obama campaign’s said today that he plans to ease the impact of rising gas prices by [B]cracking down on excessive energy speculation through closing the so-called “Enron Loophole.”


… Aides [to Obama] argued the changes to the regulatory structures could have at least some medium-term impact on gas prices. The “Enron Loophole” — so named because it was added at Enron’s behest — has kept the Commodity Futures Trading Commission [CFTC] from fully overseeing the oil futures market and investigating cases where excessive speculation may be driving up oil prices, the campaign explained in a policy paper. Obama would close the loophole by requiring that US energy futures trade on regulated exchanges. His plan also calls for legislation that would direct the CFTC to investigate whether further regulation is needed to end excessive speculation in US commodities markets, including higher margin requirements and position limits for institutional investors.

Obama would aim to ensure that US energy futures cannot be traded on unregulated offshore exchanges and would seek to work with our other countries to establish regulations to avoid excessive speculation in commodities futures markets. He would also call on the Federal Trade Commission to investigate market manipulation, including in the oil futures markets and ask the Justice Department to investigate whether energy traders have been engaged in illegal activities that have helped drive up oil and food prices…

“I think everyone believes there’s too much speculation in the oil markets and a lot it flows directly from that particular loophole,” said [Obama adviser New Jersey Gov. Jon Corzine]. “It might as well be called the Phil Gramm loophole, because it was snuck in at the 11th hour, 59th minute to the 2000 energy policy bill, and it just is, it really needs to be addressed. And it would have a lot of impact I think certainly in the intermediate term, if not in the short term with greater oversight here.”

Corzine said the “Enron loophole” Gramm had added to the bill took exchanges and derivative oil contracts out of supervisory oversight and had been a problem in electricity markets in California a few years ago. He said it was unlikely Gramm would push back against his own amendment..

Here’s the transcript of the video of the report on the June 18 edition of “Countdown”:

skip

OLBERMANN (voice-over): Soon after Enron‘s birth as a power supplier in the 1980s, CEO Ken Lay decided he could make more money betting on electricity futures, especially if government regulators didn‘t stop him from cornering the market and gaming the system. Under the first President Bush, an obscure agency called the Commodities Future Trading Commission obliged Ken Lay. The CFTC chairwoman, Wendy Gramm, left Enron alone.

When Bill Clinton beat Bush, it took only one week before Enron asked Gramm to lock in her hands-off position as official CFTC policy. Gramm started the process. The CFTC approved it after she left on Clinton‘s inauguration day. Five weeks later, she took a part-time post on Enron‘s board of directors and wound up earning more than 900,000 dollars over the next decade. Clinton never undid Gramm‘s changes.

Fast forward to the year 2000 and Bush v. Gore. In the chaos of constitutional crisis, Enron got a law passed containing what is now known as the Enron loophole. Where Gramm deregulated individual trades, the Enron loophole deregulated entire markets, online markets. Enron had just started its own online market, and set its sites on the state of California.

Over the next six months, California suffered 38 rolling blackouts, as Enron used artificial shortages, bogus deals and total knowledge of the market as sole owner of its own online market to triple California‘s energy bills. In the dark, regulators had less power than California did, leaving Enron laughing about it.


skip

OLBERMANN: The Enron loophole applied to all energy commodities, oil, propane, natural gas. So, today, oil futures are driven by speculators, free from any regulatory oversight. Now, you can‘t just blame OPEC any more. British Petroleum paid 303 million dollars to settle charges it cornered the propane market in 2004, inflating heating costs for seven million American homes.

more............

[Magi2]

It seems I can't read anything to day without running into more on this:
http://pabloonpolitics.com/gramm_bus.htm

July is BuzzFlash "Independence from Corporate Media Month" With a Goal of Reaching $50,000 in Donations and Premium Sales

Friday, July 11, 2008



Phil Gramm: Whining Under the Bus (Satire). BuzzFlash Note: What Phil Gramm Said Has Been the GOP Hidden Agenda Since Reagan: We're Wealthy; You're Not. Stop Whining About It. It's Your Own Fault if You Can't be as Successful at Greed as We are. There's Nothing More to Really Say About the Republican Contract on America, Except that War Makes a Lot of Corporate GOP Donors People Even More Inexcusably Superrich.

[Magi2]

Well here are some Corporations that want REGULATIONS once again!

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Corporate-Leaders-Demandin-by-Michael-Fox-080712-488.html

July 12, 2008 at 07:49:32

Corporate Leaders Demanding Government Regulation

by Michael Fox

An Open letter to All Airline Customers:

Our country is facing a possible sharp economic downturn because of skyrocketing oil and fuel prices, but by pulling together, we can all do something to help now.

For airlines, ultra-expensive fuel means thousands of lost jobs and severe reductions in air service to both large and small communities. To the broader economy, oil prices mean slower activity and widespread economic pain. This pain can be alleviated, and that is why we are taking the extraordinary step of writing this joint letter to our customers. Since high oil prices are partly a response to normal market forces, the nation needs to focus on increased energy supplies and conservation. However, there is another side to this story because normal market forces are being dangerously amplified by poorly regulated market speculation.

Twenty years ago, 21 percent of oil contracts were purchased by speculators who trade oil on paper with no intention of ever taking delivery. Today, oil speculators purchase 66 percent of all oil futures contracts, and that reflects just the transactions that are known. Speculators buy up large amounts of oil and then sell it to each other again and again. A barrel of oil may trade 20-plus times before it is delivered and used; the price goes up with each trade and consumers pick up the final tab. Some market experts estimate that current prices reflect as much as $30 to $60 per barrel in unnecessary speculative costs.

Over seventy years ago, Congress established regulations to control excessive, largely unchecked market speculation and manipulation. However, over the past two decades, these regulatory limits have been weakened or removed. We believe that restoring and enforcing these limits, along with several other modest measures, will provide more disclosure, transparency and sound market oversight. Together, these reforms will help cool the over-heated oil market and permit the economy to prosper.

The nation needs to pull together to reform the oil markets and solve this growing problem.



We need your help. Get more information and contact Congress by visiting www.StopOilSpeculationNow.com

Signed:
Robert Fornaro, Chairman, President and CEO; AirTran Airways
Bill Ayer, Chairman, President and CEO; Alaska Airlines, Inc.
Gerard J. Arpey, Chairman, President and CEO; American Airlines, Inc.
Lawrence W. Kellner, Chairman and CEO; Continental Airlines, Inc
Richard Anderson, CEO; Delta Air Lines, Inc.
Mark B. Dunkerley, President and CEO; Hawaiian Airlines, Inc.
Dave Barger, CEO; JetBlue Airways Corporation
Timothy E. Hoeksema, Chairman,Pres.and CEO; Midwest Airlines
Douglas M. Steenland, President and CEO; Northwest Airlines, Inc.
Gary Kelly, Chairman and CEO; Southwest Airlines Co.
Glenn F. Tilton, Chairman, Pres. and CEO; United Airlines, Inc.
Douglas Parker, Chairman and CEO; US Airways Group, Inc.


The deregulation to which they refer is the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000, crafted by Sen. Phil Gramm (R-TX), after extensive (and lucrative) lobbying by Enron - who had already gotten unique concessions on oversight from his wife, Wendy Gramm, when she was head of the Commodities Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) under Presidents Reagan and Bush, Sr. The CFMA (Commodity Futures Modernization Act) 2000 was signed by President Bill Clinton. Phil Gramm is now the lead economics advisor in the McCain campaign.

It looks like even big business has had enough of his kind of economic policy, and even they agree that it’s time for a big reversal of policy.



figures.............!

Check out the url which is in the article!

[JamesP]

James I am absolutely willing to consider your "out of the box" thinking... but when I asked you why supply and demand no longer apply, you said nothing... so you are leading a revolution in the field of economics but... you haven't given us anything to believe in... besides "It's not Vegas!" :)

Th - When I have more time, we'll expand the discussion on "supply & demand", but given your intellect and access to info (you seem to read and explore a lot), it really shouldn't be necessary to detail at any great length as to why the simple laws of "supply & demand" aren't responsible for the sudden growth in the price of oil (during the Bush administration) from under $20 per barrel to over $140.

Reading some of Magi's post here can be helpful. (The price of oil is certainly not all about speculation, by the way, but it's part of the picture and a good place to start)

Looking at the real change in supply vs demand (with respect to oil) vs the real change in the price/profit equation is also helpful.

It's also helpful to simply consider what happens to the economic purity/validity of the law of "supply & demand" when those who can profit from doing so have the ability to both....
- manipulate supply
- limit, inhibit or restrict competition & consumer alternatives
and when there is no restriction / oversight on "unregulated greed is good" capitalism "gone completely wild".

More later....

[Thelonious]

Speculation on energy should be ended... and energy speculators should have their heads lopped off in the public square just to nicely illustrate the point.

James,
This sounds a bit like the Taliban. Are you really promoting public executions??? Isn't that a bit fascist? Or are you sooo far left that you actually support the terrorist agenda now? [and therefore adopt Taliban techniques] :)

[JamesP]

James,
This sounds a bit like the Taliban. Are you really promoting public executions??? Isn't that a bit fascist? Or are you sooo far left that you actually support the terrorist agenda now? [and therefore adopt Taliban techniques] :)

er... a bit of "exaggeration" on my part to make a point... call it "literary license"... I assumed you would know I wasn't serious about "lopping off anyone's head"... definitely not my style.

(note to self: keep the writing really simple and dull on POL)

[Jane of Arc]

(note to self: keep the writing really simple and dull on POL)


Thanks for the chuckle James. You rock.

:sunny:

[Thelonious]

I wasn't serious about "lopping off anyone's head"...

James,
So did you mean "putting them behind bars" seriously or was that more empty fluff that makes you feel good and gives Magi something to read [and otherwise does nothing for anybody]?

If you are serioius about prosecuting these people, what law has who broken?

Is there any substance to what you are writing? or can I get the same quality of discussion by bringing this up with my dog?

[Magi2]

er... a bit of "exaggeration" on my part to make a point... call it "literary license"... I assumed you would know I wasn't serious about "lopping off anyone's head"... definitely not my style.

(note to self: keep the writing really simple and dull on POL)

Nah James,
With the investors making a good living off we suckers, we could use a "chuckle" now and then. So some of us understand and appreciate your intelligence and humour so don't change a thing, please.

and, What the heck is this?

Quote Thel:
"James,
So did you mean "putting them behind bars" seriously or was that more empty fluff that makes you feel good and gives Magi something to read [and otherwise does nothing for anybody]?"



:confused:

[B][COLOR="Blue"]Capitalism run amuck (without regulation) IS THE PROBLEM!

Now they have to be bailed out to keep the housing industry from completely collapsing . . . further. Just another consequence from the self-enriching folks who advise the McCain campaign, who thought it would be really swell to leave the nation's financial industry woefully under-regulated, while it made them rich. Sorry about the whining.



So the middleclass taxpayer bails "The Pigs at the trough" out yet again as the price of oil and gas and everything else goes through the roof!

[Magi2]

POL slow today.........
So here's my "edit":

Originally Posted by JamesP
er... a bit of "exaggeration" on my part to make a point... call it "literary license"... I assumed you would know I wasn't serious about "lopping off anyone's head"... definitely not my style.

(note to self: keep the writing really simple and dull on POL)


Nah James,
With the investors making a good living off we suckers, we could use a "chuckle" now and then. Some of us understand and appreciate your intelligence and humour so don't change a thing, please.

and, What the heck is this?
:confused:

Quote Thel:
"James,
So did you mean "putting them behind bars" seriously or was that more empty fluff that makes you feel good and gives Magi something to read [and otherwise does nothing for anybody]?"





Capitalism run amuck (without regulation) IS THE PROBLEM!

See #8.

Quote:
Now they have to be bailed out to keep the housing industry from completely collapsing . . . further. Just another consequence from the self-enriching folks who advise the McCain campaign, who thought it would be really swell to leave the nation's financial industry woefully under-regulated, while it made them rich. Sorry about the whining.




So the middleclass taxpayer bails ]"The Pigs at the trough" out yet again as the price of oil and gas and everything else goes through the roof!

Time to throw out the "Reagan" DINOs as well!

:mad:

[Jane of Arc]

Thelonius~


You gave me negative feedback for my mild praise of JamesP humor????? How petty and small. I should give you negative feedback right back for being such a twit, but I won't stoop. But, Magi ... if he insulted me the way he just insulted you and the continual way he puts down Jennifer ... I wouldn't hesitate! This type of mean-spirited, misogynistic attitude needs to be called out.


-V- ~

Are there any rules concerning gratuitous negative feedback given without cause, reason or justification?


Thanks!
Jane :sunny:

[Magi2]

Honestly, Thelonious has insulted most of us for some time.

I'm expecting the Grand Slam very soon now.

Keep tuned in Jane of Arc.

:) :sunny:

[Thelonious]

Thelonius~


You gave me negative feedback for my mild praise of JamesP humor????? How petty and small. I should give you negative feedback right back for being such a twit, but I won't stoop. But, Magi ... if he insulted me the way he just insulted you and the continual way he puts down Jennifer ... I wouldn't hesitate! This type of mean-spirited, misogynistic attitude needs to be called out.


-V- ~

Are there any rules concerning gratuitous negative feedback given without cause, reason or justification?


Thanks!
Jane :sunny:

Jane,
Talk about the issues, or just quit wasting space.
Thank you.

[Thelonious]

Capitalism run amuck (without regulation) IS THE PROBLEM!

If fact there is some truth to this one. Republicans hate regulating banks and other institutions so much that they just don't do it when in office. And this does lead to bank failures [and the tax payer picks up the bill] In the Reagan years it was the S&L crisis. This one is bigger and worse... way back in the late twenties it was really horrible [it kicked off the great depression], but even then it was a Republican administration refusing to regulate until it was far too late.

[Magi2]

If fact there is some truth to this one. Republicans hate regulating banks and other institutions so much that they just don't do it when in office. And this does lead to bank failures [and the tax payer picks up the bill] In the Reagan years it was the S&L crisis. This one is bigger and worse... way back in the late twenties it was really horrible [it kicked off the great depression], but even then it was a Republican administration refusing to regulate until it was far too late.

CONGRESS/Bush 1/Clinton/bush 2 as well as Reagan are responsible for the deregulation these last 28 years!

This has cost us:
a living wage,
with exportation of jobs,
with health benefit costs through the roof,
natural foods (now with chemical fertilizers, insectcides, homones, antibiotics, herbicides, pesticides, preservatives and other chemicals........I just read over 15,000 common additives).....
a fair Media,
and most of all the gutting of energy regulations cited on previous posts on this thread.

There is so much more to say on this subject, I hope others add to it.

Off hand, Jane .....and our voting rights .......................!



We have become a nation whose government is NOT doing it's job for which we WORKING PEOPLE pay taxes!


Getting rid of "Big Government" headed by an administration of Corrupted F errrrr.........Tools, has resulted in a gutted FDA, & EPA for instance, as well as all other Departments, so there is no protection, as in regulation, for US anymore!



http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Robber+Barons&btnG=Google+Search


Yes, We are back in the days of "The Robber Barons"!
Time to clean the House and Senate as well .........

YES we can!
:thumbup:

[Magi2]

NEWS ANALYSIS
"Americans may be losing faith in free markets
Things are hard all over the financial landscape, and politicians and experts are now looking with favor at more, not less, government involvement in the economy.
By Peter G. Gosselin, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
July 16, 2008
WASHINGTON -- For a generation, most people accepted the idea that the core of what makes America tick was an economy governed by free markets. And whatever combination of goods, services and jobs the market cooked up was presumed to be fine for the nation and for its citizens -- certainly better than government meddling.

No longer."

skip


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-losingfaith16-2008jul16,0,1516735.story

[-V-]

Thelonius~
You gave me negative feedback for my mild praise of JamesP humor????? How petty and small. I should give you negative feedback right back for being such a twit, but I won't stoop. But, Magi ... if he insulted me the way he just insulted you and the continual way he puts down Jennifer ... I wouldn't hesitate! This type of mean-spirited, misogynistic attitude needs to be called out.

-V- ~

Are there any rules concerning gratuitous negative feedback given without cause, reason or justification?

Thanks!
Jane :sunny:

Yes, Jane, there is a new infraction system which is now built into the system. As a moderator you can use it.

Thelonius, there have been several complaints about your personal remarks which are completely unnecessary. You are obviously intelligent enough to debate here without resorting to that kind of stuff.

[lynchbug]

It has been quite some time since I read either The Family by Kitty Kelly or House of Bush - House of Saud which author's name entirely escapes my steel colander memory. However, times have certainly changed dramatically since the happy days of my childhood, when I watched brave NASA Astronauts vault into the heavens under the sponsorship of Gulf Oil, and their beautiful ships crossing the sea. That was back when the United States was a free country, and the pinnacle of Western Civilization.

I think The Royal Family is unfazed by the fact that their North American clientèle may be leaving for another market. They have China and the rest of the rapidly developing Asian region to sell to, as the capacity to add value to raw materials has migrated to that region from North America, and from Europe to a degree. The Asian manufacturing region will have a great deal of money to spend on oil at almost any price. In addition, the Saudis and neighboring states, especially Dubai, are rapidly developing gorgeous, ultra-modern cities to serve as the world's new financial center.

As to our former patronage of Saudi Arabia and other mid-east exporters, well, yes, as greener, better technologies are brought to market, we will certainly have less reliance on imported petroleum.

But, few truly understand the magnificently huge reserve here in the USA which can be brought into production to lower prices until green technologies are brought successfully to the market on a grand scale. This does not include ruinous mountain topping for production of oil from oil shale. It does not mean opening gulf coast US and California offshore deposits either. It does not require sullying sensitive wildlife preserves sheltering endangered species.

It does mean further development of the huge and economically viable Bakken Pool of Eastern Montana, South Dakota, North Dakota and Southern Saskatchewan. These wells can be permitted and completed in a little under a year. Better efficiencies could be had from this huge reserve if some enterprising individual would build a pipeline network to the refineries some distance away. Now, production is slowed and costs are increased as the crude must be trucked from each well to the refinery site. When each well's on site storage is filled, the pump must shut off until a tanker can be brought to take away some of the oil.

These wells are happily pumping in the midst of fields growing wonderful short season crops like soybeans, peas, wheat, other grains, and which usually produce a crop of hard wheat each winter. Great care is taken with each new well, to provide clay containment to protect the valuable agricultural land in the event of a spill. I have been to these well sites, and I have seen they are scrupulously clean and free of evidence of uncontained or untreated spills or leaks.

The Bakken formation, or Williston Basin as it is referred to frequently on the US side of the border, has reserve about equal to that of Saudi Arabia, perhaps exceeding that amount a bit.

Add to this the fact that the formation producing West Texas Crude, a fine sweet crude oil, may run as far west as western Arizona, and consider other liquid petroleum deposits in the central and upper Midwest, and the country sits well poised to handle this transition nicely. This without paying the absurd prices we do for heating oil and gasoline, provided, of course, that some control may be had over the futures market in commodities contracts, as some have mentioned already.

As to the House of Saud, Their Royal Highnesses and their subjects are well poised to exist fairly independently of the rest of the world, without trading, if they wish. They now hold all of the money that used to fuel the American Dream.