[-V-]

I'd like to say something in consideration of the millions of beautiful birds that were abused and slaughtered for this holiday. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that this thankful day has become so associated with the sacrificing of this animal's flesh that is is referred to as "Turkey Day".

For me it is simple. I will never pay someone to abuse and slaughter an animal for me when there are so many more things for me to eat (and healthier too).

I don't know if there is a God, but if there is, and the Bible is his/her/it's word then for everyone who says "thank you for this meal we are about to eat" on this day, they might want to add "forgive us for this meal we are about to eat".

Christians should consider these passages in their Bible:

"It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwellings, that ye shall eat neither fat nor blood"
(chap.Leviticus 3.17)

"Ye shall eat no fat, of ox, or sheep or goat. And the fat of that which dieth of itself, and the fat of that which is torn of beasts, may be used for any other service: but ye shall in no wise eat of it. . . Even the soul that eateth it shall be cut off from his people. And ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast"
(chap. Leviticus 7:26-27).

"And God said: Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed which is upon the face of all the earth and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat, and to every beast of the earth, . . . I have given every green herb for meat."
(chap. 1, verse 29).


(out of context references to Isaiah 66 verse 3 and Numbers 11 verses 20, 33 were deleted as per Scullyism post)

[Coven]

-V-, I thought of you yesterday as my brother-in-law took the turkey out of the oven and my 7 yr old daughter started crying hysterical and yelling you killed him, you killed him. She refused to eat and it took a long time to convince her to come sit at the table. Of course, we did not make her eat it. I hope you behaved better.

[-V-]

after somone said grace at my family/friends gathering of 30 people I held them up from their turkey for another 2 minutes to flip through the bible and read them the above passages. A few chuckled (perhaps an uncomfortable laugh, perhaps assuming it was another example of my sarcastic humor) but as soon as it was done they all gobble gobbled their turkey.

[treehugginliberal]

-V- I truly respect your views on this matter, but feel that i should weigh in on the other side of the issue, which in the end I may regret.
First, I should give a bit of brackground. I have been a birdwatcher and amateur naturalist (the term currently en vogue is citizen-scientist) since I was eight years old. I formerly hunted birds (dove and quail mostly) until I was 25 or there abouts when I realized that I no longer had the stomach for killing things. I love animals and actually prefer them to most people I know. Having said that I must also confess that I have no problem with most hunters (save for those who trophy hunt or participate in so-called "canned" hunts). Hunters actually pay for more habitat and species preservation than most of the environmental groups I belong to (this is why I still buy a hunting license every year though I no longer participate).
Okay now it gets sticky. I also have no moral issues over eating meat. Most scientific research shows we humans to be omniverous. An omnivore is defined as a general or opportunistic feeder.This is based primarily on jaw structure, digestive process, and other anatomical traits. Now saying this I am fully aware that we humans are not required in anyway to eat animal protein, some us of just like it.
I have more of an issue with corporate farms and ranches and whenever I can do so, I try to support local farmers and ranchers by buying my meat and produce from co-ops or other sources that are not national chains although this is not always practicable.
Even though I find myself of PROBABLY being on the same side as Andy on the carnivore issue, I have no problem with those who do not eat meat, whether it be for moral, health, or environmental concerns and would hope that they would not have a problem with me. Besides, if my viewpoint is wrong, I will die soon anyway :-) (oh yeah, I smoke too, a double whammy)

[Coven]

O.K so you didn't really behave better. Did you think you were going to humilate them into not eating it? I truly admire your strong convictions and I completely understand how you feel and if they didn't know before which I doubt, they do now. But, did you consider how the person who spent the whole day and probably serveral days before that preparing a meal for all of you felt. A large family gathering is not necessarily the forum to express yourself. That's what we are here for.

[-V-]

Did you think you were going to humilate them into not eating it?I prefaced the reading by saying it was something they might want to consider for next Thanksgiving. Humiliation isn't the right word. Fear of God? A ticket to heaven? Whatever works for the preachers during Sunday's mass. But of course, I didn't expect any results, because people will always rationalize the things that they want to do. The flock eagarly accepts things like the church's condemnation of homosexuality but will always find a way to rationalize premarital sex, meat eating, cheating, etc..

An omnivore is defined as a general or opportunistic feeder Indeed. We can kill and eat anything we want to eat. What seperates us from animals and our children is our advanced ability to apply compassion and consideration of the consequences of acting on our primitive impulses and desires. If I see a desert on a pastry shop shelf that I can't afford the only thing preventing me from stealing it when no one is looking is my sense of morality. You don't need to eat the pig. You desire to eat the pig and are willing to pay someone else to abuse and slaughter the pig for you.

I would ask anyone who would present another rationale to answer this:

Some cultures eat dogs and cats -- would you if it were legal here? If so, would it be OK for a neighbor to eat your pet if it was wandering around the neighborhood without a tag on?

(no "smarter" rationales please. A pig has a higher measurable IQ than a dog. Besides the consideration is their ability to suffer, not reason).

[treehugginliberal]

Some cultures eat dogs and cats -- would you if it were legal here?
Probably not, but then again some cultures eat large hairy spiders and insects and I do not believe I would eat those either.

If so, would it be OK for a neighbor to eat your pet if it was wandering around the neighborhood without a tag on?
Of course not, but then again I keep my pet (cat) in the house, they live longer and are healthier. If animal control picked up my pet because it was loose and un-tagged, I suppose you know what would happen if it were not claimed after 3-5 days.

Then again, if one really wanted to carry this argument to its logical extension, I suppose keeping pets or using animals as beasts of burden could be deemed immoral as well.

You realize that we are never going to agree on this issue.

[-V-]

some cultures eat large hairy spiders and insects and I do not believe I would eat those either. I'm not talking "Fear Factor". If you like chicken and cow, cat and dog would be a similar, pallatable taste for you (with a little A1 sauce or a slice of cheese on top). They are things you would desire to eat but you don't because you love your pet and extend that compassion to other dogs and cats.

to its logical extension, I suppose keeping pets or using animals as beasts of burden could be deemed immoral as well absolutely, if the animal is made to suffer. It is immoral to make any thinking, feeling creature suffer for your pleasure.

It is a simple truth, simpler than most other issues compassionate Democrats fight for. The only reason my fellow liberals find it debatable and complex is because it is ingrained in their lifestyle, meat taste too good, and it appears too difficult to go without it. I understand the rationales we tell ourselves because I used them on myself for over 20 adult years of animal eating.

"Man has an infinite capacity to rationalize his behavior, expecially when it comes to something he wants to eat." - Cleveland Amory

"I have no doubt that it is part of the destiny of the human race in it's gradual development to leave off the eating of animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other when they came into contact with the more civilized." - Thoreau

"The time will come when men such as I will look on the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men." - Leonardo Da Vinci

"Animals are my friends . . . and I Don't eat my friends."
"We ourselves are the living graves of murdered beasts." - George Bernard Shaw

"We must never permit the voice of humanity within us to be silenced. It is man's sympathy with all creatures that first makes him truly a man." - Albert Schweitzer

"The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated" - Mohandas Gandhi

"If slaughterhouses were made of glass, no one would eat meat" - Paul McCartney

[Scullyism]

Well okay... I actually have no feelings one way or theother, I am not really a meat eater, because I am just not a fan of it and actually my doctor is making me eat at least fish because but I have protein dificiency. I respect and value everyones opinions and-V-I generally agree with you on most issues (not to say I disagree with you now). I do have to chime in when the Bible is being used.
You have to be careful when you are using the Bible in that you have to take the entire work into context. The pentitude was the law given to Moses by God for the people of the nation of Israel. They were to keep them in a right relationship with God. Most of the quotes that you gave are from the old dispensation and refer to how the people were to worship and make their sacrifices to God. (If you look at Deuteronomy 14:3-21 it speaks of what they were aloud to eat at other times outside of worship, whic included certain meat) Later it became obvious that they couldnt keep the law so He sent Jesus and all the old laws were washed away anyway. (except for the 2 that encomapsses all the others.....love the Lord yadda yadda yadda and love you neighbor yadda yadda yadda).My point is, read the verses in context.

For instance the verse from Isaiah chap. 66 that was totally taken out of context. If you read on in the text it gives a list of things that are the wrong way to worship, the wrong offering to God, or offering it with an unclean heart...

In regards to Genesis 1:29 - when God created earth everything was in harmony including man and beast, this was before sin entered into the world and changed how everything related to one another

In the Numbers 11:33 - (read from verse 30) God had given the quail to the people for their days journey and he smote them because they were being greedy and were hoarding the quail as if they were never going to eat again.... he smote them for their greed

If there were any Bible students in the room at Thanksgiving dinner, Im sure they would have called you on these issues and would not have been so uncomfortable....

Like I said, I have no personal view on the matter, to each his or her own, and would have probably never even commented on this subject if I had not seen the Bible verses being taken out of context, anyway, that's all I have to say. But I will end with this ...

1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
Romans 14:1-3

[-V-]

I actually have no feelings one way or the other

Likewise, Scully, I respect your opinions and agree with most of them. But if you have ever loved any animal then you have a feeling on this issue. You're just not applying it.

I agree that the quotes I used are contextually questionable. The old testiment is not consistent in many areas. The secondary purpose of my reading them (especially after this election) was for the Christians in the room to consider all the consequences of taking the bible literally as they do when they condemn evolution, homosexuality, etc.

Given your knowledge of the Bible, Scully, I would be interested in knowing how the representitives of the church resolve the conflicts/inconsistencies/irrationalities and justify picking and choosing which entries to endorse and which to dismiss.

[Scullyism]

I question many things that we do that is part of our nature, but I just try to make sure that I do not condemn others for what they believe due to their experiences. By the same token someone may ask, how can one believe in not eating meat and saving an animal, but be pro choice and not saving a human life, or how could one be pro life and also for capital punishment. Basically it comes down to a matter of choice and our experiences and what they lead us to believe and how they lead us to act upon what we believe and since everyone has different backgrounds, experiences and so forth. You're gonna have folks who believe it is okay to eat meat. Does that mean they are wrong and we are right, I dont think so. I think it makes them rational free-thinking people.

My experience in the Bible is that it is not contradictory but that our interpretations of what is being said is what is the contradiction.

I am not really sure what you mean by "conflicts/inconsistencies/irrationalities",
but I think I know what you're getting at.
The point that you make about picking and choosing has irritated the heck out of me for years. I believe when churches come out against issues like homosexuality. That they are speaking from a more personal dislike or disgust of what homosexuality represents to them. You dont hear much from the pulpit about lying and cheating because thats what most of them do.
People get a little bit of Bible and run with it never understanding what it truly is to be a Christian. It is not beating people over the head with religion, but loving them. EVERYONE. They just dont get that part. You cant bring anyone to Christ by telling them they are going to hell. If someone tells me that, I tell them I will be meeting them there becasue they are judging me.
Church folk, just like everyone else, pick and choose what they are going to get up in arms about but they dont just do it about these issues. It happens with all issues within the church as well. You have churches who will build an entire doctrine on one verse of the Bible taken out of context and totally ignore what the rest of the verses say.
Case in Point: The Pentecostal CHurch.....they say you are not saved unless you speak in tongues, that it is a sign....Hellelujah....when the Bible plainly teaches that you should never speak in tongues unless there is an interpreter present and that it is always a sign, but only to those who do not believe....oh i could go on and one.. but the reason church folk do this is becasue we too are human (although you cant tell most of us that) and can be vastly hypocritical at times...

here is a little known secret about the church that my Pastor says all the time.. are you ready?

..."the church is a hospital, fully equipped with pediatrics and the psych ward"

Unfortunately, that says it all...

[-V-]

By the same token someone may ask, how can one believe in not eating meat and saving an animal, but be pro choice and not saving a human life, or how could one be pro life and also for capital punishment.

I agree that people should be consistent. I believe it is unethical to abort a sentient (thinking & feeling) human embryo as well as abuse and slaughter an animal. In the case of a human embryo, it is more difficult to access when it is a sentient being so I can not argue with letting women make her own ethical decision (up to a point) rather than the courts.

Again, I know that meat eaters would like to think that it is complicated, but it is not. Compassion and consideration in all things. Anyone who knows anything about the meat production process should not support it with their consumer dollars. And if that is judging, so be it. Sometimes it is necessary path to change in our society.

I appreciate your participation in this thread. It is not a crowd pleaser, even on a progressive forum. It all comes down to "taste".

[rimbaud402003]

I have a lot of difficulty here. I am an unrepentant meat eater (leftist and supporter of Woments rights) but I have a lot of questions about abortion. I firmly believe in a womans right to choose TO A POINT. If the surgeon has to suck out the brain of an embryo to complete the abortion, then I am pretty sure that is a kind of murder. What else could it be? But if a woman chooses to take a pill the day after unprotected procreation...I am all for it.

I have always had problems with this issue and I think about it a lot.

I guess for me it comes down to this::ALL CLASSES NEED TO BE HELD UP TO THE SAME ETHICAL STANDARD WE COME UP WITH.

I DO NOT believe that the wealthy should be able to make decisions ( whether right or wrong to ME personally) that the poor are unable to make.

[-V-]

I am an unrepentant meat eaterRimbaud402003, welcome to this thread, which I have renamed The MEATRIX for reasons I will shortly explain. That you had the courage to enter and you used the term "unrepentant" indicates that you sense there may be something wrong with your carnivorous behavior but you are compelled to continue, probably by the societal MATRIX around you.

The issue of animal-rights/vegetarianism is an advanced topic for ultra-progressives, or, in keeping with the current theme, shall we say NEO-liberals. If you are uncomfortable in this thread you can leave now, however, if you are ready to see the world as it really is -- read on.

Before you is a
RED EXIT LINK
and a
BLUE ENTER LINK (http://www.themeatrix.com/)

Click the red exit link and you stay in the world of illusion and self serving rationalizations (sponsored by McDonalds)

Click the blue link and the truth will be revealed to you...

[amylee]

I gave up eating meat/meat products 6 days ago, well frankly, the day of Thanksgiving is when i decided to change my mind frame on the killing of animals. I think it was when my partner called Thanksgiving,Slaughter Day instead.. It really made me stand up and take notice of the choices I have been making, the lies I have been telling myself..the BLUE LINK really confirmed my thoughts on all of this and I feel more determined than ever to change this way of thinking/eating. The reality of BLUE LINK literally made me sick to my stomach.


Thank you for this thread and the passion you have each exuded here. We need to keep teaching eachother and letting our minds open to new possibilities..

Amy

[treehugginliberal]

I have seen the Meatrix clip on FreeSpeech TV on numerous occassions, and it is precisely about an issue I constantly rail about, corporate agri-business. It is NOT an anti-meat ad, it is a plea for consumers to seek out sources for their food stuffs (meat and vegetables) that do not come from corporate agri-business, which is precisely what I try to do.
It is terribly important that we as consumers do what we can to support family-owned farms. These folks should be natural allies to those of us who wish to take our country back from the corporate greedheads (I read Hightower) who have been in charge for far too long. (Okay what follows will no doubt piss some folks off so allow me to apologize in advance) Unfortunately, I feel that some of the rhetoric put forth by animal rights activists has alienated those who try to make a living be raising our food stuffs. Growing up in an area that depends largely on agriculture, I have known many a farmer, rancher and farm boy. They tend to be for the most part politically conservative, but their number one concern is making a living and the current corporate climate of the country is not in their best interest.
It is not just meat, but the vegetable and grain products as well.
I could go and on but if you want to read a truly chilling story about the power of corporate agri-business, go here (www.percyschmeiser.com) This, I feel truly illustates what the family owned farms are up against.
Sorry for going off topic a bit. Okay a lot.

[-V-]

It is NOT an anti-meat adthere is no need to be defensive. Indeed it is not anti-meat, neither am I. There is nothing unethical about ingesting meat (animal or human for that matter). It is needless abuse and slaughter that is the problem. The ad is, of course, anti animal cruelty.

animal rights activists has alienated those who try to make a living be raising our food stuffsthe job performed by people is either ethical or unethical independant of whether it pays money. We could reduce unemployment by hiring more people to make bombs or you could pay your rent by selling drugs to kids but that doesn't make it right.

I sense a smattering of the pious moral certitude, harsh judgement of others & general "intolerance"...we should avoid climbing onto moral high-horses along side of them I sense a reciprical smattering of self serving indignation perhaps designed to relieve yourself of any personal responsibity on the issue. Whether I am on a "high horse" or a humble jackass is irrelevant. There is a whole herd of white horses being ridden by you, me, and everyone else in the other threads on this board. The passion of the religious right is not the problem, -- it is their position that is wrong. Martin Luther King and others have exemplified that passion about justice is beautiful even if the process gets a little ugly. Some famous liberal said "be fair with others and force them to be fair with you".
we should apply some context: lets do. Bless you for being passionate regarding all the things you feel need attention. Consideration for this issue need not distract you at all. No need to march on Washington. If you believe factory farming is cruelty to animals just buy a slice of pizza instead of a piece of pig for your next meal. It is a simple truth with a simple solution.

The reality of BLUE LINK literally made me sick to my stomach. Amylee you are truly a beautiful spirit. Thank you for listening to this thread with your heart instead of merely reading it with your mind.

[anartgrey]

I often wonder how humans would react, seeing some creature eating a human, slicing it up, barbeq-ing a leg or arm, making jerky out of the tougher muscles, fighting over the fatty young children for the most tender meat. Breeding and keeping humans as food, as a matter of normalcy and what they consider survival. I bet my tofu that most human beings would be revolted, sickened and panicked to happen across such a scenario, and that is so typically hypocritical of them. As above so below, as they say, which implies that somewhere beyond what we percieve, we are not at the top of the food chain.
But from a more practical standpoint, why do people assume that 'animals' do not perceive love and fear and panic and grief the way we do. They so obviously experience these emotions if you only take a brief moment to really pay attention. You know that slaughter houses smell of death to the cows in line, being pushed forward toward the killing floor, that young chickens who have their beaks removed to avoid damaging other chickens (since they are raised head to toe cramped in tiny metal cages) feel horror and confused fear their whole short life.
This culture is so schizophrenic about this issue, with President GW sanctioning the slaughter of hundred of thousands of innocent people in Iraq, and "pardoning the thanksgiving turkey" on national tv on thanksgiving. What the hell is going on in this country? But that is another discussion entirely.
Basically, for me, it comes down to respecting creation, all of it, including the meat eaters, and the animals they eat. I just simply cannot bring myself to add to that cycle of death when I am surrounded by so many cycles of death as it is. Well, this comment was rambling and rather odd, but such is the mind of this veggie.

[-V-]

Word, anartgrey! If we were visited by aliens who were as "superior" to us as we are to a pig they might indeed use it as justification for roasting us over a fire. Fortunately, it wouldn't play out that way. To put the quote by Leonardo Da Vinci a different way, I am sure that any advanced society would outlaw the abuse of all sentient creatures. For now, we all must live within the Meatrix that only enforces cruelty laws to protect cats and dogs and the Matrix that only allows heterosexuals to have marriage rights, slaughters civilians, etc..

[treehugginliberal]

Quote:
It is NOT an anti-meat ad
there is no need to be defensive.
Okay this is something I need to remember. I did not intend to come off as defensive, I saw no need to. I capitalized the word 'not' for emphasis, it was how I was taught to write. I forget in the cyber world capitalization is yelling. I write poorly enough as it is without making errors like this and for that I apologize.



The ad is, of course, anti animal cruelty.

I disagree. While the animal cruelty aspect is an important point in the ad, the ad itself is to make folks aware that they do not have to buy their food from corporate agri-business. This is a point I have tried to constantly make but apparently my writing skills are worse than I had imagined.

the job performed by people is either ethical or unethical independant of whether it pays money
My uncle raised Black Angus cattle and was a wheat farmer all his working life. If I understand the above statement correctly, the fact that he butchered a few head of cattle to sell to the local meat market each year he was therefore unethical? I find that train of thought to be terribly arrogant.

This thread has been an amazing exercise in self-realization. The fact that I unapologetically eat meat, love but do not anthromorphize animals, and support those who choose to hunt within the law, this apparently makes me an immoral cretin just this side of a child-molester. Obviously I have come to the wrong forum. It was interesting though.

[-V-]

tree, you are overreacting. We are on generally on the same page (figuratively and literally) but we happen to disagree on a paragraph or two. I would be shocked (and probably bored) if everyone agreed with me.

I must not be writing too plainly either because my intentions were to debate the morality of the issue rather than anyone in particular. I believe you are a bright, compassionate progressive who, like me, is not perfect. I sincerely hope you stay but also like me, you should expect your ideas to be challenged.

[rimbaud402003]

I dont believe in hurting puppies or cats for sport.

Or even Cocks for gambling.

I HAVE swatted a fly from time to time or killed a cockroach that I found in my cupboard.

I have even inadvertently stepped on ANTS while walking down a sidewalk.

However, I STRONGLY support my right to have a nice steak if I choose to do so.

This world is a food chain.

It is not unnatural. It is what nature has provided.

My consumption of a steak is not the same as me going out and killing someone and eating THEM.

Humans are further up the food chain. Doesnt mean that next time around we arent the STEAK. THAT, my friends, is called KARMA which is also perfectly natural.

Animal rights are important but are QUICKLY becoming a strange obession ESP among the LEFTundefined
Any of you anti-meat folks EVER THINK that your TOTALITARIAN ANTI-MEAT-CONSUMPTION DEDICATION is just one more way for the ELITE to shut us PROGRESSIVES OUT and make us look like TREE HUGGING EVANGELISTS??

CHECK THIS OUT!

I live in Arizona and our HEAD SHERIFF is Joe Arpaio. Our state has paid out MILLIONS for lawsuits because his HUMAN jailors were treated badly (or were killed). He has ALSO made a big deal about hunting down and prosecuting those who hurt animals. Just GUESS which headlines make it to our NEWS OUTLETS! Only those about ANIMAL ABUSE. You VEGETARIANS are being USED

Animals should never be abused but FOLKS, the food chain is the food chain.

GET REAL!

[-V-]

rim, you may not have read all the other posts but some of this is redundant.

I HAVE swatted a flyIt is not about comparing animals to humans or bugs to animals or deciding which issues are more important. Again, it is about the morality of abusing and slaughtering thinking, feeling animals to satisfy, not human needs but human desires.

one more way for the ELITE to shut us PROGRESSIVES OUT Just order a veggy burger at Burger King (I had one this week and it tasted just like a whopper without the mad cow disease!) The "elite" need never know it was us but they will change the way they make food when sales start dropping.

Humans are further up the food chain.The "food chain" is stronger animals eating anything they can catch and kill because unlike us they do not have morality. They also steal, have random sex, etc.. Anyone who believes they are "higher" on the food chain accepts the notion that superior beings from another planet are entitled to roast us over a grill.

I dont believe in hurting puppies or cats for sport.some society's hurt them for food but I doubt you would approve? If it is wrong to hurt a puppy, it is wrong to hurt a piggy.

[Coven]

Rim, sorry about those cockroaches thats a bummer nothing really kills those guys. I don't eat meat but I do eat chicken, fish and sorry tin, turkey. People do have the right to eat whatever they wish but we need to have compasion for these animals in the way they are raised and killed. The torture of these animals is immoral. If we do wish to eat animals than we need to support the friendly farmers that treat and kill animals humanely. On the blue link is a list of grocery stores where you can find free range meat and organic produce. We need to do something and soon because we are poisioning ourselves and our children by eating all of this chemically enginered food and hormones and antibotics its insane. If we don't support it they will have to stop.

[Michael DeM]

I agree with -V-. Animals feel love and pain just like the rest of us. Why should we kill them any more than necessary? How would you feel if someone killed your friends or members of your family for pleasure? It's dishonorable for people to kill weaker animals just to make themselves fatter.

[rimbaud402003]

For -V-: I appreciate the way you responded to my post. It wasn't belligerent and didn't come across as heavy-handed. I was almost afraid to come back here for fear that my steak-loving ass would be crucified, lol.

I do need to admit something here. Rolling Stone did a story about the meat industry a while back and I was shocked, disgusted, and sickened by it. For almost 2 weeks I didn't eat any meat. I suppose I need to be better-informed. I am a big guy and I have finally started losing weight doing Atkins. I hope to God you anti-meat folk don't convert me or I am gonna be the fattest liberal on the planet.

I believe my ignorance of the practices used to farm meat is somewhat intentional. A kind of selective cognition seems to be at work.

A very ZEN friend of mine once told me that when an animal is about to be slaughtered and finally KNOWS its fate, the animal's chemistry kicks in and floods it with a bunch of chemicals that are triggered by FEAR. He pointed out "Why would you want to eat meat that is so full of that negative karma and chemicals?" I thought this was a good point.

Damn. You guys have started me thinking.

I'll probably wind up chaining myself to a steer at some meat plant and
end up in the hamburger bin at SafeWay.

BTW, I'm not there yet. Plan on having a nice salad tonight topped with hamburger and bacon.

THANKS GUYS!

:D