[JamesP]

We Are All Torturers Now
By MARK DANNER / NY Times

Published: January 6, 2005

When Alberto Gonzales takes his seat before the Senate Judiciary Committee today for hearings to confirm whether he will become attorney general of the United States..... The senators are likely to give full legitimacy to a path that the Bush administration set the country on more than three years ago, a path that has transformed the United States from a country that condemned torture and forbade its use to one that practices torture routinely. Through a process of redefinition largely overseen by Mr. Gonzales himself, a practice that was once a clear and abhorrent violation of the law has become in effect the law of the land.

Shortly after the 9/11 attacks, Americans began torturing prisoners, and they have never really stopped. However much these words have about them the ring of accusation, they must by now be accepted as fact. From Red Cross reports, Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba's inquiry, James R. Schlesinger's Pentagon-sanctioned commission and other government and independent investigations, we have in our possession hundreds of accounts of "cruel, inhuman and degrading" treatment - to use a phrase of the Red Cross - "tantamount to torture."

So far as we know, American intelligence officers, determined after Sept. 11 to "take the gloves off," began by torturing Qaeda prisoners. They used a number of techniques: "water-boarding," in which a prisoner is stripped, shackled and submerged in water until he begins to lose consciousness, and other forms of near suffocation; sleep and sensory deprivation; heat and light and dietary manipulation; and "stress positions."

[JamesP]

We're all torturers now....and we're all murderers of innocent civilians now. Osama has won - he's turned us into American versions of him. Self-righteous, violent, tribal & ruthless.
I don't recognize America now....and there's a lack of leadership to turn us around.
We just affirmed the maestro of murder and torture: GW Bush. It's as though the Arab world voted Osama Bin Laden as their President after witnessing his work on 9-11.

[joepol4]

Yes I too feel that we have returned to the 'dark ages' and it's as if our so-called leaders have succeeded in transforming our society to live as we once did during old testament biblical days. What a sad sad state of affairs.

[anartgrey]

Neo-Con Torture Rhetoric Alarmingly Mirrors Nazi Counterparts

Watching the Watchers | January 26 2005

This so-called ill treatment and torture in detention centers, stories of which were spread everywhere among the people, and later by the prisoners who were freed… were not, as some assumed, inflicted methodically, but were excesses committed by individual prison guards, their deputies, and men who laid violent hands on the detainees.

Can anyone tell me who said that? Was it:

A) George W. Bush
B) John Ashcroft
C) Donald Rumsfeld
D) Someone else

If you answered “someone else", you’d be right. It was Rudolf Hoess, SS Kommandant of the infamous Auschwitz death camp where over 2.5 million people were murdered.

Conservatives, who love to call Liberals whiny, get whiny as hell when the Bush administration is compared to Nazi Germany, or to fascism in general. Guess what, though? The comparisons are beginning to come through more and more.

Scott Horton wrote in the LA Times:

Consider the memorandum written by Alberto Gonzales – then the president’s attorney, now his nominee for attorney general. He wrote that the Geneva Convention was “obsolete” when it came to the war on terror. Gonzales reasoned that our adversaries were not parties to the convention and that the Geneva concept was ill suited to anti-terrorist warfare.

In 1941, General-Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel, the head of Hitler’s Wehrmacht, mustered identical arguments against recognizing the Geneva rights of Soviet soldiers fighting on the Eastern Front. Keitel even called Geneva “obsolete,” a remark noted by U.S. prosecutors at Nuremberg, who cited it as an aggravating circumstance in seeking, and obtaining, the death penalty. Keitel was executed in 1946.

Hitler was installed, then re-elected. Bush was installed, then re-elected. Hitler had Reichstag, Bush had 9/11. (I am not implying government collusion in 9/11, FYI) Both used their respective catastrophes to assume more power (Hitler with the Enabling Act, Bush with the USA PATRIOT Act), and to assume dictatorial powers.

Hitler used Christianity to give his words absolute authority and decried any who dissented as unpatriotic. Bush uses Christianity to give his words absolute authority and decries any who dissent as unpatriotic.

Hitler said:

“The German people are not a warlike nation. It is a soldierly one, which means it does not want a war, but does not fear it. It loves peace but also loves its honor and freedom”

Bush said:

We’re pursuing a strategy of freedom around the world, because I understand free nations will reject terror. Free nations will answer the hopes and aspirations of their people. Free nations will help us achieve the peace we all want.

I have rejected this type of comparison of Bush to Hitler for months, because Hitler was a genocidal maniac bent on ruling the world with his ideology. I submit this comparison now because I believe the same to be true of George W. Bush.

George W. Bush will have his empire, and he will kill any person, group, or country that stands in his way. I challenge any of you to tell me why that is not so, as he has already proven it.

********************************************

-------hi, it’s Anartgrey – just passing this along, because there are those of us who have seen this mirroring of behavior and events for quite a while, and no matter how much we flinch against such a ghastly comparison, the facts of the matter are very very clear. The planet, and each of us individually, is in serious danger due to this evil man and his handlers - “when they came for the muslims, I didn’t say anything because I was not muslim...” I wish it weren’t true, but I cannot, with any sense of conscious, say that it is not.

[republicantx]

Are you really trying to compare Bush to Hitler? Are you a nut job? The comparisons you made are ignorant. Everything that Bush has done has been APPROVED BY CONGRESS. When is the last time a family member of yours was dragged out of their house and murdered for bad mouthing Bush. Here are some comparisons for you.

Bill Clinton: Ron Jeremy-details excluded of course :eek:
Bill Clinton: Adolf Hitler-allowing millions of Rwandans to die of starvation; allowing the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo and going in after it was over after warning Milosivec for over a year.
Jimmy Carter: Sodamn Insane-for cutting off his own countries oil supply :confused:
Jimmy Carter : A sloth-for being the most worthless, slowest president in history

I realize that these comparisons are far fetched, but so is yours ANARTGREY.

Your source was the LA TIMES genious. The most Liberal Newspaper in the country from the biggest Blue State in the country!

[anartgrey]

Unfortunately for you, republicanwhoever, the truth is the truth is the truth. No matter how angry you and yours get about it coming to light, it will never change the facts. The only reason I even bother to respond to someone who refuses to do real research (outside of watching FOX "news") is that if you don't wake up to what is going on, you, and we all, will lose everything. You obviously have no idea whatsoever what is really going on in the world and who benefits from it all - please take your ignorance to another board and troll there for emotional reactions. I've seen to much to even want to react to your ignorance.

[republicantx]

Name calling is the benchmark of the democratic party.


CONDALEEZA RICE FOR PRESIDENT :D

[JamesP]

Repub:
As one who served (and could be captured by the enemy), what are your views on America, torture, and the Geneva convention?
Please... avoid responding with a hollow, knee-jerk defense of the Bush administration.
Take your own advice and provide a thoughtful, non-partisan response.
Some issue are too serious for partisan pretense.

Can't we, with all of our military might, remain the "good guys" and, at the very least, respect the Geneva convention?

[republicantx]

JamesP
Torture is stupid, because to put that kind of miserable pain on anyone is heartless, and I believe that if you do it, you have reserved yourself a place in hell. However, I do not believe that things like sleep deprivation, and making POWs walk around and take pictures naked is torture. It is degrading. Alberto Gonzales was a little radical in his statements about torture. However, I believe that we should be able to degrade prisoners, as long as it is controlled, and overseen by SENIOR CIA Officers. Throw political lines to the side when you talk about torture, because it is a human issue. IT IS WRONG AND EVIL.

As far as the Geneva Convention, it is not policed well enough. We need to throw it away and write a new WORLD LAW with the basic laws of human nature. If you torture anyone, and are convicted by a majority vote by ALL countries, you will be executed. The only problem that I can see with this is unfair judgement by some countries due to the nationality of another.

One Last Thing: I believe that Abu Graeb( :confused: I think that is how you spell it) was soldiers being stupid. Not the CIA. I have woked with several soldiers, and I know that they can do moronic things like that.

[gratelady1]

Are you really trying to compare Bush to Hitler? Are you a nut job? The comparisons you made are ignorant. Everything that Bush has done has been APPROVED BY CONGRESS. When is the last time a family member of yours was dragged out of their house and murdered for bad mouthing Bush. Here are some comparisons for you.

Bill Clinton: Ron Jeremy-details excluded of course :eek:
Bill Clinton: Adolf Hitler-allowing millions of Rwandans to die of starvation; allowing the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo and going in after it was over after warning Milosivec for over a year.
Jimmy Carter: Sodamn Insane-for cutting off his own countries oil supply :confused:
Jimmy Carter : A sloth-for being the most worthless, slowest president in history

I realize that these comparisons are far fetched, but so is yours ANARTGREY.

Your source was the LA TIMES genious. The most Liberal Newspaper in the country from the biggest Blue State in the country!
NOTE: that all the above dont answer the history of the policies of GWB but instead try to attack the messenger. You will find this tactic in all conservative media- and is in it own way,the best weapon propogandist have. I challenge Repubtx to think (if possible) about the charge and why he would have to defend GWB, and even be here in this chat room, regulating and defaming folks about what we have personally witnessed over the last 4 years. Especially attacks on freedom of speech, why we have to have so much more documentation to travel, Why the illegals are now being blamed for all our ills (similar to the way Hitler blamed the Jews), How slowly and methodically the Biblebelters and religous right have been manipulated into supporting behavior specifically denounced by their savior, and lastly how such a ____________ _____________ ____________ _____________ _________ was actually re-elected, despite all the negative results from his first 4 years. I want everyone to understand that there 289 million Americans and of those at least 1/4th are somewhat capable of being president, and dont have a 4 year record like that man had- but still he won- What will our kids say about that, maybe the same thing the kids of the populace of Hitler's generation, when they had to face the legacy of their parent's mighty furor's policies. The only difference between Adolph and Georgy is that Adolph knew when to call it quits and at least made it look like he did the honerable thing in the end and put himslef out of his people's misery- GWB does not have the intelligence to do the same.

[FDRfollower]

What an old thread. But, appropriate for this story that has come up

Link to other stories (http://tailrank.com/3136233/Fort-Hunt-s-Quiet-Men-Break-Silence-on-WWII)