[-V-]

Personally, I have great respect for Al Gore and John Kerry and I would vote for either again, however I believe the rest of the party dropped the ball in 2000, 2004, and they continue to dissapoint me.

[mdbasement]

So how do we go about getting new blood into the DNC? Is new leadership enough? Can a guy like Howard Dean, the consummate outsider, make a difference or will he just get eaten up by the DNC machine like he did in the primaries?

These are not trick questions, I’d really like to know who can we support within the party and how can we ride the current resentment against the status quo in the DNC that I read about in the “progressive press” (IE: Alternet and some of the folks at move-on). There seem to be a great many people both in the party and just outside of it that want to see real change. I’d like to know how I can help see that this change happens, Anybody got any ideas?

[-V-]

I was impressed with moveon after the election when they demonstrated their willingness to lead in a direction that was not necessarily along DNC party lines. I believe they could lay the groundwork for change. Unfortunately, though I believe they accurately reflect the voice of the left, the media has painted them as a fringe group, so I'm not sure how directly they should be involved.

I would support someone outside of politics stepping forth with the knowledgable team behind him/her, as the GOP did with Arnold. Though I would prefer a "Phlilosopher King" or should I say "Phlilosopher Representitive" it may take star power to compete in today's media contorted political arena. Tom Hanks anyone?

[mdbasement]

I see it now, "The Progressive Express". All kidding aside, I think you are on to something. "New Age" politics seems to favor a front man (or woman) with Charisma supported by educated, seasoned handlers. If the right team could be put together, recent history has shown that the public will buy the candidate as a product and his team as the warranty. I think new blood connected in some way to the old guard has a real chance.

I mixed about a dozen metaphors, but I hope you understand that I support your idea.

[JamesP]

It's simple, look no farther: Tom Hanks, George Clooney... maybe Alex Baldwin or Paul Newman.

Remember the audience: it's all about media-image, star-power, celebrity.
Again, we must effectively "sell" our message to the dumb, greedy & gullible who supported the embodiment of these characteristics: GWB.
We've got to market a lovable star and change their B movie plot: "bring em on, smoke em out, kill the evildoers" to something more Spielberg.
Do we have an action hero with a heart?

[-V-]

It's simple, look no farther: Tom Hanks, George Clooney... maybe Alex Baldwin or Paul Newman.

I have a feeling that all of the above are too idealistic to prostitute themselves by doing the things that would be necessary to win the political game.

[anartgrey]

When Kerry conceded before the Ohio vote was even fully counted (it still hasn't been), I got a sinking feeling that we had all been set up, that he had never intended to win and that his hastey primary victory was all part of a plan to assure that what has happened would happen. I had this feeling for just a moment or two before it became too horrible to seriously consider as being the truth. Months later, i fear that it may be closer to the truth than I dare to realize.
If the approval of Conde Rice's appointment to Secretary of Defense (with only 2 dissenting votes in the Senate), and the initial votes of approval on the Torture-Redefiner Gonzales prove anything, it proves that the Democratic Party no longer exists. Both of these individuals are morally and ethically corrupt, have proven themselves to be blindly loyal to a man whose grip on reality is tenuos, at best, and are both very comfortable with the blood and pain of hundreds of thousands of human beings on their hands. The overwhelming majority of the Democratic Party did absolutely nothing to prevent these Sociopaths from being given the kind of power in this country that will ensure, for at least the next four years, that millions of people will suffer and die at the hands of GW's apocolyptic fantasies. I never even imagined that one day, I would be deeply ashamed to be an American - the past four plus years have left me with no respect, no confidence and no hope in the leaders of this once amazing country.

Anway - :rolleyes: - a new party must be formed and driven to succeed. I hope it does not take some replay of Nazi Germany and WWII for people to realize how desperately we need this change. Sorry for the rant, I just cannot be optimistic at this point about our futures.

[JamesP]

Anart: Well said.

Many of us can't shake the gnawing sense that the election was just an elaborate ruse, put on every four years to maintain the pacifying myth of democracy.
It was likely the Clinton Presidency that convinced the Skull & Bones, New World Order gang that they had to get serious about election rigging in the USA.
Democracy is as "quaint" an idea to them as the Geneva Convention.
It's not easy to "keep hope alive" under these circumstances.
I agree wholeheartedly that the confirmation votes by Democrats elevating two such absurdly inappropriate candidates is the final, undeniable sign of the irrelevance and complicity of the Democratic party.

[republicantx]

James Carville said that "the Democratic Party needs to do a serious evaluaton of where they stand and make some enormous changes."

Anyone can see that this is true. When Ted Kennedy had an idea to run for president, he was asked why and had no answer. The simple answer is that both his brothers had their chance, and he thought it was his turn. The DNC has to stop announcing their candidates because IT IS THEIR TURN. We tried that with Bob Dole remember. As shown through history, our political parties usually have approximately a 35 year run. The last Democratic run started with Roosevelt in '32. Republicans took over in '80 with the greatest president of all time. What the modern day Liberal fails to understand is that the American people have always chosen a president who has put down a clear conservative message, including Clinton. No one wants government to run their life. The only exception in history was the election of FDR. Democrats have become too Liberal. If you are not liberal, you are not allowed to be a democrat anymore. TIME TO WAKE UP DEMOCRATS. BE HAPPY, BE FREE, BE DEMOCRAT!!! BUT PLEASE DITCH THE LIBERAL WAY OF THINKING!!! :confused:

[Michael DeM]

What the modern day Liberal fails to understand is that the American people have always chosen a president who has put down a clear conservative message, including Clinton. No one wants government to run their life. The only exception in history was the election of FDR. Democrats have become too Liberal. If you are not liberal, you are not allowed to be a democrat anymore. TIME TO WAKE UP DEMOCRATS. BE HAPPY, BE FREE, BE DEMOCRAT!!! BUT PLEASE DITCH THE LIBERAL WAY OF THINKING!!! :confused:

The majority of Americans aren't conservative. If you look at the poll numbers, most people support state-sponsored healthcare, poverty relief, unemployment benefits, gay rights, abortion rights,etc. And although most people trust republicans on defense/foreign issues, when asked where they stand on individual foreign issues most people take the liberal positions. Most Americans lean more liberal and just don't know it because of stereotyping by republicans and the corporate media.

[joepol4]

i hope the good doctor can help america heal

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0213-02.htm

[snowdog]

Ummmm, thats the whole problem, There IS NO LEADERSHIP in the Democratic
Party.

[gratelady1]

Ummmm, thats the whole problem, There IS NO LEADERSHIP in the Democratic
Party.

With this issue I must completely agree with you snownipper, Why not just take out both parties?

[snowdog]

With this issue I must completely agree with you snownipper, Why not just take out both parties?


thats a thought glady1, if the 2 major parties didn't exist things may go
much better what would be the new leading party?

[gratelady1]

thats a thought glady1, if the 2 major parties didn't exist things may go
much better what would be the new leading party?
How about the "American party"

[Jane of Arc]

Here's the real deal ... the Democrats won.

When ALL the votes were finally counted by independent American & British newspapers ... Gore won.

But that was right after 9/11 ... and who wanted to deal with a silly thing like the American Presidency ... and besides "the Supremes" ruled to stop the counting of votes in Florida ( oh, that wacky Ms. Ross, they just adore states rights). And the New York Times (one of the newspapers who actually took part in the count) buried the story on page 432 ... or was it 462 ... I forget.

So ... when I hear liberals beating themselves up ... I get confused. The real problem is corruption. Right-wing corruption. A nasty brand of NeoCon corruption like the world hasn't seen since goose-stepping was all the rage.

Republicans own the voting machines.

There is no uniform, verifiable voting system in America.

Diebold can make receipts for your money, but not your vote.

Votes are manipulated, lost and ultimately counted by ... guess who?

And if this isn't pure corruption ... why does a Republican Congress squelch every voting reform bill? Don't they want honest elections?

I guess democracy gives them the 'willies'... because most of them would end up a slow bus back to their gated communities ... they'd lose their Brooks Brothers shirts.

[snowdog]

Here's the real deal ... the Democrats won.

When ALL the votes were finally counted by independent American & British newspapers ... Gore won.

But that was right after 9/11 ... and who wanted to deal with a silly thing like the American Presidency ... and besides "the Supremes" ruled to stop the counting of votes in Florida ( oh, that wacky Ms. Ross, they just adore states rights). And the New York Times (one of the newspapers who actually took part in the count) buried the story on page 432 ... or was it 462 ... I forget.


I guess democracy gives them the 'willies'... because most of them would end up a slow bus back to their gated communities ... they'd lose their Brooks Brothers shirts.

Please explain what you are saying,

1, the Election between Mr. Gore and Mr. Bush was in Nov 2000, the
terrorist attacks were on Sept 11, 2001. what are you talking about ?

2. The democrate won here in Wa state. for governor. even though many
of the votes came from people that have been dead for years, or were
convicted felons. Dino Rossi (R) actually won on the recount. but alas
this was in King County Wa. Rossi never stood a chance.

3. The Gore/Bush election in 2000, almost 5 years ago, get over it.

[gratelady1]

Yeah man Bush won in 2000 and the congress and the senate are controlled by the conservatives- so what's the problem- if the Repups- control everything- why are all the repubs soo upset!! Why aint anything getting done? Huh-oh! damn! we run out of excuses or people to blame for not fixing everything!! Now what do we do?

[Jane of Arc]

Dear Snowdog,

Independent news media in this country and from England, through the Freedom of Information Act, obtained ALL the voting records in Florida. They completed this recount (the one the Supreme Court would not allow) AFTER the 9-11-2001 attack. They found that Gore won. Do some homework.

You say "get over" the fact that the election was stolen, manipulated and rigged? NEVER.

Obviously you're a Republican and so I ask you this... does it bother you at all that we do not have verifiable elections with a paper trail in America? Does it bother you that it is impossible to do a recount on most of the electronic machines in place in America? Does it bother you that your party in power in Congress squashes legislation reform to secure honest, open elections in this country?

WHY DON'T REPUBLICANS WANT HONEST, VERIFIABLE ELECTIONS?

I use to respect many Republicans ... real Republicans that stood for states rights, the Constitution, no unnecessary wars, smaller government and FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY!

Now I see nothing but nationalistic goosesteppers blind to their cause as our nation goes bankrupt!

[Lionhearted]

Richard Hofstadter in his book The American Political Tradition says, in essence, that American political leaders, Republican and Democrat have the narrow vision of encouraging endeavors that promote vast wealth along side abject poverty and a national acceptance of war and preparations for war. Despite the fact that power shifts between the two parties, neither has shown a capability of going beyond this vision.
This is why I see very little distinction between the two major political parties and feel that until someone comes forth with a more progressive vision, it matters not one whit who leads the DNC or the country for that matter.
This particular administration is just more blatant in putting this vision out in the open with little pretense of caring about us common folks.

BTW, excellent post What?

[gratelady1]

Richard Hofstadter in his book The American Political Tradition says, in essence, that American political leaders, Republican and Democrat have the narrow vision of encouraging endeavors that promote vast wealth along side abject poverty and a national acceptance of war and preparations for war. Despite the fact that power shifts between the two parties, neither has shown a capability of going beyond this vision.
This is why I see very little distinction between the two major political parties and feel that until someone comes forth with a more progressive vision, it matters not one whit who leads the DNC or the country for that matter.
This particular administration is just more blatant in putting this vision out in the open with little pretense of caring about us common folks.


To whom these presents gretting;

This is to certify that Gratelady1 has nominated "Lionhearted" for the Distinguished writer of the year award, for his amazing post, that summed up the main rationale, why America will never progress under the current "Two-Party system"

Given this day of our lord October 19, 2005, with all due Honor and Respect..[I]

By bound duty;

Gratelady1... Senior Member

http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/events/oakes/

[Jane of Arc]

Hi Lionhearted,

I SO agree with you! There is very little difference between the Republicans and the Democrats ... two "elite" groups (all millionaires, with few exceptions) ... all with corporate backers ... and I watch them everyday on my corporate-owned TV and they sell me their products ... GE creates NEWS, as well as WAR, as well as my new refrigerator!!! Ain't the world ducky!

The slow, what seems inevitable, globalization of our planet ... our jobs reduced to slave wages ... our commons and shared resources all owned by the biggest corporation ... controlling our water, our food ... the air we breathe.

It's no longer science fiction. Orwell's vision is real.

So ... Republican? Democrat? Doesn't the fact that Hillary was First Lady and Dubya was First Son bother people on BOTH sides??? Isn't it TOO ovbious?

Who's ready for a peaceful revolution?

[snowdog]

Dear Snowdog,

Independent news media in this country and from England, through the Freedom of Information Act, obtained ALL the voting records in Florida. They completed this recount (the one the Supreme Court would not allow) AFTER the 9-11-2001 attack. They found that Gore won. Do some homework.

You say "get over" the fact that the election was stolen, manipulated and rigged? NEVER.

Obviously you're a Republican and so I ask you this... does it bother you at all that we do not have verifiable elections with a paper trail in America? Does it bother you that it is impossible to do a recount on most of the electronic machines in place in America? Does it bother you that your party in power in Congress squashes legislation reform to secure honest, open elections in this country?

WHY DON'T REPUBLICANS WANT HONEST, VERIFIABLE ELECTIONS?

I use to respect many Republicans ... real Republicans that stood for states rights, the Constitution, no unnecessary wars, smaller government and FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY!

Now I see nothing but nationalistic goosesteppers blind to their cause as our nation goes bankrupt!

LOL, this from the person that felt that the Bush/Gore election was 2 months
after the attack on 9/11. :D

Bush was RE-ELECTED in 2004 ! Now please, get over the Election of 2000!
Hell, I'm here in Wa State, our dippy Gov won (Gregoire) after the Rep won
the initial recount! It has been proven that convicted felons voted, several
of the votes were from dead people, one 72 yr old woman said she used her
husbands ballot (he died 7 yrs ago) because she knew that if he was alive
he would of voted for Gregoire !! Am I bitter, nope, will this idiot we have
for a gov be elected again?, I really don't know, but I won't be voting for her.

and YES it bothers meabout the Fl voting..... I was in Jacksonville Fl for the
2000 election, You know the one that Gores lawyers, fought to not let the
military absentee ballots be counted? Don't go down that road until you have
all the facts!

[Jane of Arc]

Dear Snowdog,

To mock me and repeat that I thought "the Bush/Gore election was 2 months after the 9/11 attack" is not only untrue, it's a waste of both of our time.

Most of the words you type in this room are nit-picking, belligerent quips designed to pick away at whoever you deem your "liberal opponent". That's not me. I'm not interested in playing. I'm not interested in being your opponent. It's such an enormous waste of time.

What I am much more interested in is YOU. I am interested in understanding WHY you are a conservative. I want to understand WHY you still support George Bush.

I look forward to a new dialogue that intends to understand our differences and hopefully shed light on what we have in common.

Thank you.

[Lionhearted]

What?
Very decent reply. Had it been me I would have told snowie to stfu as I have little patience with those who provide no back up for their allegations and refuse to play "nice" with those who simply parrot party rhetoric.

I was in Jacksonville Fl for the
2000 election, You know the one that Gores lawyers, fought to not let the
military absentee ballots be counted? Don't go down that road until you have
all the facts!

Where's the proof? Your word? If you are going to make such allegations please provide a link so that we may be enlightened.

[-V-]

the one that Gores lawyers, fought to not let the military absentee ballots be counted?

I'm with you, lion, on the parroting of party rhetoric. That particular piece of weak rhetoric was the most slimey of all the slime drudged up by the GOP in 2000 and a ploy they should be embarrased to even admitting to, let alone reminding us of.

Snow, if you insist on going there, go here first:
http://iknowwhatyoudidlastelection.com

[snowdog]

Dear Snowdog,

To mock me and repeat that I thought "the Bush/Gore election was 2 months after the 9/11 attack" is not only untrue, it's a waste of both of our time.

Most of the words you type in this room are nit-picking, belligerent quips designed to pick away at whoever you deem your "liberal opponent". That's not me. I'm not interested in playing. I'm not interested in being your opponent. It's such an enormous waste of time.

What I am much more interested in is YOU. I am interested in understanding WHY you are a conservative. I want to understand WHY you still support George Bush.

I look forward to a new dialogue that intends to understand our differences and hopefully shed light on what we have in common.

Thank you.

"But that was right after 9/11 ... and who wanted to deal with a silly thing like the American Presidency ... and besides "the Supremes" ruled to stop the counting of votes in Florida ( oh, that wacky Ms. Ross, they just adore states rights). And the New York Times (one of the newspapers who actually took part in the count) buried the story on page 432 ... or was it 462 ... I forget."

Where am I wrong?



I think you might want to read a few of the liberal comments against me. lets
see, because I have conservative views I am a Neo-Nazi, a communist, a facist
mean spirited, rethuglican, oh yea a moron, there is more if you want me to
dig up a few. I have mentioned in several of my post, that I am here to understand different views, and If you were to spent 15 minuites, going back
thru previous post you woud see, that what you are saying above makes no sense, It would appear that since I have conservative values, that I am the
enemy. Truth is, I DO agree with a few of the views posted here. You had
made a statement that the country was blindsided in the election of 2000.
because the election was held 2 months after the terror attacks. which simply
isn't true. You may call it nit-picking if you want, but the fact is... that was a
false statement. As for a better dialogue, I am all for it. But you must
try to understand that it is a bit difficult for me to take much of this seriously
at this time as I am led to believe that I am merely a moron, because I like
so many millions of others voted for GWB. SO with that said, I will do my
utmost best to be fair and avoid the nit-picking. As for why I do support GWB,
I value his unwaivering stand. I don't agree with quite a bit of his policies, but
being a member of the US MILITARY for 23 years. I tend to appreciate a man
or woman who is able to stand for what they believe in. Like I said it doesn't
make them right. But Its a quality I appreciate. The election of 2004, I probably
wouldn't have voted for GWB, but.... J Kerry really didn't impress me with his
ever changing stands. He was trying to get votes, by bowing to on side or the
other. That is not leadership material as I see it.

[snowdog]

What?, here is the information you requested. As I mentioned, I lived in
jacksonville, Fl (Duvall County) during that election. I along with hundreds
of other military members had protested Gore's attempt to not allow the
absentee ballots.

Tossed Absentee Ballots Have Panhandle Area Up in Arms

By Dana Milbank
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, November 22, 2000; Page A17

PENSACOLA, Fla., Mov. 21 – The local Chamber of Commerce declared November to be Military Appreciation Month here. There are flags aflutter downtown and banners declaring "Thank You Military." Local schoolchildren compete in an essay contest titled "How the U.S. Military Has Affected My Life."

The Democratic Party, though, found what some consider a strange way to commemorate Military Appreciation Month. Last Friday night, its lawyers spent a contentious six hours trying to disqualify as many as possible of the absentee ballots sent in by overseas military personnel.

That effort was repeated throughout the state, resulting in disqualifying nearly 40 percent of 3,733 overseas absentee ballots counted last Friday. But the challenges also created an uproar that still resonates here in this heavily Republican corner of the Florida Panhandle, home to the sprawling Eglin Air Force Base, Pensacola Naval Air Station and other installations.

At Rosie O'Grady's, a downtown bar where models of old planes hang from the ceilings and the obligatory shot of the Blue Angels sits amid the sports memorabilia, Tim Tellier, playing a game at the bar at lunchtime, says he and his father, both veterans, are "very upset" about the ballot issue. And that's not Republican bluster: Tellier voted for Ralph Nader.

"How is it that Florida law didn't allow these votes to be counted?" Tellier asked.

"This is ludicrous," said Barbara Turner, the head of the Chamber of Commerce's armed services section. "As an American, it's my right to vote."

Even Juanita Scott, the Escambia County Democratic chief, acknowledged the Republicans' rhetorical advantage. "They're making a lot of hay out of it and I guess I can understand why," she said.

There are 23,000 active members of the military and 30,000 military retirees here in this county of 300,000, which gave George W. Bush 63 percent of its vote. A model Navy jet decorates the highway into town. Downtown bars have aviator themes. The location of Gen. Andrew Jackson's residence here is now a military tailor shop.

Outside the offices of the county's elections board is a map with push pins and string connecting Pensacola to military bases across the globe. "Escambia County's Election Office reaches out to absentee voters all over the world," it says.

"That service person didn't have any control over the postmark," said Willie Junior, a Democratic county commissioner who sided with the two Republicans on the county canvassing board to allow overseas ballots without postmarks. "As long as we received it prior to the cutoff date, we should count it."

Escambia received 272 overseas ballots, almost all from the military. It voided 112, about a quarter of which both sides agreed were plainly illegal. Thirty-five more ballots were rejected because the voter (or somebody claiming to be the voter) had already voted.

The other voided ballots fell into a murky area of legality, but Bush lawyers think they could get another 30 or so to count if they went to court – mostly military ballots from overseas that wound up with domestic postmarks and were rejected as a result.

Among the votes Republicans still think should be counted is that of Gina Ashton, who wrote a letter that appeared in Sunday's Pensacola News Journal saying, "As a citizen of Escambia County currently living abroad, I suggest they hold their calls until our ballots have had the chance to arrive in Florida and be counted."

The military-affiliated Ashton's ballot was rejected for having a California postmark – most likely applied after the military dumped her ballot in the United States. Indeed, some ballots had both foreign and domestic postmarks.

"Their mantra has been every vote counts – apparently unless you're serving in the military overseas," said Kevin Moley, a Bush representative camped out here. "Their clear intent was to throw out every possible ballot."

In conducting the count, the Democrats relied on out-of-town lawyers led by Boston's John Gannon, and had trouble recruiting locals.

"Nobody wanted to do it," said Leo Thomas, a local criminal lawyer who joined the out-of-town Democratic squadron Friday but didn't say anything and left early. A military man himself, he called the party's effort to block overseas military ballots without postmarks "unfortunate."

At Friday's meeting, Democrats first raised an objection about all the ballots because the county hadn't checked to see if the voters were registered elsewhere. The Democrats failed to void the 62 ballots without postmarks, but they blocked 24 with U.S. postmarks.

The Gore side unsuccessfully tried to disqualify all ballots with stamps on them, and tried killing one because "the full name of the witness could not be discerned from the signature." In most cases, Republicans argued that more lenient federal law trumped the stricter state statutes.

"It got so ridiculous," said county Republican Chairman Thomas Gilliam in his law office downtown. "They were objecting to ballots from the Philippines as being not from overseas. They said the Philippines was a territory of the United States. We pointed out that it's a sovereign nation."

At one point amid all the objections, Thomas Johnson, a judge who sits on the canvassing board, scolded the sea of lawyers. "It's nice to have you all here," he said, "and I say that sarcastically."

[snowdog]

As I previously pointed out, here is an example of how I am treated for
my views, this was put out today by Lionhart. Do you see my point?

Wanna take bets on who "Official A" in the indictment is? God you people are like talking to a wall. Oh wait, that does disservice to walls everywhere. Did you even bother to read the indictment? Probably not. I'll bet your only source of news is Faux News, isn't it? Do you even try to look for other sources of information? I doubt it. I know that you are not illiterate because you can write (or perhaps someone does it for you?). At least I have attempted to back up anything I have tried to say by providing links. I have yet to see you provide one single link backing up anything that you put forth.

[Jane of Arc]

Dear Snowdog,

Thank you for your long and thoughtful responses.

You have to understand that being a conservative voice on a progressive online site opens you up to strong criticism. If I went to a conservative online chatroom and talked my progressive ideas I'd be verbally skinned alive.

But you say your here not to be an aggitator, but to exchange ideas and learn from each other. Cool.

As far as the Dana Mibank article ... I read the whole thing. Do I think the Democrats are 'innocents' ... hell no. Is this story true or the complete story? I don't know. But here's the bottom line on elections as far as I'm concerned. We need verifiable, honest elections with a paper trail for the protection of both parties. The Republicans have continually ignored, dodged & blocked Congressman Rush Holt's bill. He's been trying to get it even acknowledged by the Republicans since 2000. He's still trying. (See the links below as places to start.)

http://www.holt.house.gov/display2.cfm?id=6282&type=Home
http://www.demaction.org/dia/organizations/vevo/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=1353

My question to you ... just one question for starters ...

Why does the Republican controlled Congress continue to thwart/ ignore/ block legislation for a verifiable vote for all Americans after the voting debacles of 2000 and 2004? Why?

[haus]

I was in the Persian Gulf floating around on a guided missile frigate for the "election", and I was pretty durned (not the adjective of my choice in the matter) nauseated that the supremes disallowed the counting of _all_ the Florida votes.

I live one county to the south of Duval (one "l") in Clay.

[snowdog]

I was in the Persian Gulf floating around on a guided missile frigate for the "election", and I was pretty durned (not the adjective of my choice in the matter) nauseated that the supremes disallowed the counting of _all_ the Florida votes.

I live one county to the south of Duval (one "l") in Clay.


Yes, Haus, It was a very upsetting time. for many. I read somewhere that
there were over 300 lawyers on both sides going after the Fl vote count.
ALGORE in fact did try to not allow votes. Here in Wa state last Nov we went
thru the voteing problems. for the Gov. It was Fl all over again. Unfortunetly
it went to the Dems. The Rep had NO chance. as all the voting officials were
Dems. and they shot down all the complaints. Dead people voting, Felons
voting, Repulican held areas discounted. It riled many of the FEW Republicans.
There are cheap shots from both sides on the voting issues.

as for your service.... THANK YOU! the Wife was stationed abord the JFK at the
time.

and YES, what? I do realize the situation of where I am at. I do appreciate the
opinions of most posters including yourself. As I guess I am looking for a better
understanding as to what is going on in this great country. Keep up the good
post!

[snowdog]

Dear Snowdog,

Thank you for your long and thoughtful responses.

.

My question to you ... just one question for starters ...

Why does the Republican controlled Congress continue to thwart/ ignore/ block legislation for a verifiable vote for all Americans after the voting debacles of 2000 and 2004? Why?


I am not informed enough to answer that at this time, I will research it though.
maybe you could help me though.... How come during the Wa state Gov elections
last year.... how come after the Rep won on the first and second count. how
come there came to be a third count? which the Dems won. and after it was all
said and done... How come convicted felons were allowed to vote? how was
it allowed that a widow, "on behave of her husband who had died 2 yrs prior,
voted for the deceased' and then proclaim " thats how he would of voted". Yes,
without a doubt the Republicans do what they can to get the votes necessary
to win an election, But if anyone believes for a micro-second that the Dems,
the Greens, or Progressives would not do the same. Those people are dangerously
uninformed. Do you not find it at least questionable about the great Dan Rather,
coming up with forged documents 2 months prior to the election? Look where
it got Dan Rather. talk about unfair bias. that litte fiasco cost 3 execs at
CBS there jobs! God only knows what the real story was! why didn't the
Democratically controlled congress of 93 take care of this back then? I think it
would really be to your benifit for you to find out just who would vote yes and
who would vote no on election reform. I gurantee you would be quite surprised.


My question to you if I may.... Is it true that the Kennedys (Teddy) paid $134,000.00 in taxes last year on $500,000,000 in trust funds set up over seas?
while that "pig" pushes for more taxes against the wealthy? as I understand it
isn't George Sorros doing the same? Kennedy's accounts are in FIJI, while
Mr. Sorros's accounts are in South America? Also J Kerry claimed to have completed a "tour" in Vietnam. He admits that he was there for 4 months...
yet last time I checked the shourtest "tour" is 6 months. could you explain that
one to me? and what in the world did Sandy Burglar do with those TOP SECRET
documents he stuffed down his pants leaving Los Alamos, NM. DO ya think that
is any less serious than ol Scooter lying about a CIA agent that graced the cover
of a national magizine with her husband "BEFORE" the leak was discovered?

and very recently. how come NOONE IS looking into the press finding out about
top secret prisons that half our senetors didn't even know about? Do ya think
there was a leak there?????

[-V-]

NOONE IS looking into the press finding out about
top secret prisons that half our senetors didn't even know about? Do ya think
there was a leak there?????

in the CIA case the LEAK is the crime against our country. In this case the secret prisons are the crime and the fact that the senators don't know about it makes it more of a crime, and the person who reported it a hero.

(I'm always here to help in your understanding of issues, snow, but, I do apologize if, due to time constraints, I can't get to them all. ;) )

[snowdog]

in the CIA case the LEAK is the crime against our country. In this case the secret prisons are the crime and the fact that the senators don't know about it makes it more of a crime, and the person who reported it a hero.

(I'm always here to help in your understanding of issues, snow, but, I do apologize if, due to time constraints, I can't get to them all. ;) )


to the first part of your post tin....please tell me what the crime of having secret
prisons is. then explain how it isn't a leak when it comes out in the press, from
former CIA employees? As for the person reporting it a hero. Now if that prison
comes under attact by Al Queda or other extremist, and the dozens of soldiers
or other US personnal are killed in an attack. How do you feel about your hero
then? If you want to help me with the issues, Could you please know something
about them first.

[-V-]

you're right snow. I don't know a lot about this. I'm just a simple taxpayer who doesn't approve of his money being directed to "secret" prisons that his elected representitive doesn't know about. Especially if they are conducting immoral and illegal interrigation and torture practices that put our sons and daughters at risk from countries who feel they can do the same.

[snowdog]

you're right snow. I don't know a lot about this. I'm just a simple taxpayer who doesn't approve of his money being directed to "secret" prisons that his elected representitive doesn't know about. Especially if they are conducting immoral and illegal interrigation and torture practices that put our sons and daughters at risk from countries who feel they can do the same.


and when did anyone Dems or Republicans EVER say since the story broke that
they are conducting immoral and illegal interrigations? Again, could you please
inform me...educate me where it is illegal to have secret prisons? EVERY administration has secret programs come on.... you know that!

[-V-]

and when did anyone Dems or Republicans EVER say since the story broke that
they are conducting immoral and illegal interrigations?

of course no one said it. The prison is "S E C R E T", remember! Why do you think the prison is secret?

[Lionhearted]

Pardon my butting in, but did anyone see this article in USA Today? Jimmy Carter speaking out against Bush's policies (okay he was also shilling his new book). Wasn't sure where to post this, so since Carter is (at 81 years old) sort of the "elder statesman" of the Democratic Party, I figured this thread would be appropriate.
WASHINGTON — Former President Jimmy Carter said Thursday that "fundamentalism" under George W. Bush has resulted in a "dramatic and profound and unprecedented change" in American policy that threatens the United States at home and abroad.
Rest of the article may be read here (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-11-03-carter-bush_x.htm).

[snowdog]

of course no one said it. The prison is "S E C R E T", remember! Why do you think the prison is secret?


Ummm-V-boy.............you said it. OOps there goes that OPINION VS Fact
thing again :D

[Jane of Arc]

Response to snowdog ~

Thanks for saying you'll research the Holt Bill and why Congress ignores it. I think all Americans should want this bill whether you are on the right or left. Until there are VERIFIABLE votes ... where everyone gets a 'receipt' for their vote that can be re-counted ... corruption will continue on both sides.

The question remains ... why doesn't a Republican Congress DO something about the voting corruption if they were truly hurt by the Democrats????

[Jane of Arc]

Response to snowdog ~

Your many questions to me were about Kennedy, Sorros and Kerry's service. The topic bounced around a bit. But I get the idea of how you feel about liberals.

But snowdog, you should be just as digusted by the 'alleged' corruption in your own party of elites ... DeLay, Frist, Cheney, Libby, Rove, Rumsfeld ... geesch, the list goes on and on ...

Snowdog ... please ... see beyond the labels of Democrat or Republican ... conservative or liberal ...
and think like an "independent". What we have now in America is a handful of extremely wealthy "elites" controlling millions and millions of Americans. How do they do this? Why have they given themselves thousands in pay raises while keeping the minimum wage at $5.15? How do they control the masses?

One way is to keep the left fighting the right. Heaven forbid if the left and right ever join forces! When that happens historically ... it becomes the elite vs. the people and the puppetmasters have a revolution on their hands.

Let's all find things we agree on.

[snowdog]

Hey what?.... I think I do pretty well in listening to Libs, Dems, and conservatives.
I have previously posted that Had He ran for President... I would have voted
for Joe Lieberman over Gwb in last years election. If members of the GWB
administration are found guilty in a court of law... I have NO PROBLEM with
them being punished. I find it odd though that now the Dems are "MAD" at
the prosecutor in that ROVE was not indicted. as if they the Dems felt that
the prosecutor needed to indict ROVE for them to be "happy". thats about
when I and many other americans get a bit peeved. I have seen NOT one
Democrate come forward in raged about this "secret' prison leak to the press.
Yet the Dems are enraged about the CIA leak. why is that? Jesus H CHr$$$,
the newspapers had satilite photos of the "secret" photos" Why aren't the Dems
wanting an investigation about that?


"But snowdog, you should be just as digusted by the 'alleged' corruption in your own party of elites ... DeLay, Frist, Cheney, Libby, Rove, Rumsfeld ... geesch, the list goes on and on ..."

has ANY of the above names you mentioned been Convicted of any crime?
then how bout we hold judgement until then? does that not seem the right
thing to do? or does that go against the Democratic agenda?

[haus]

Overall pretty good news so far on the off-year elections.

The big news:


Democrats retain Virginia Governorship
Democrats retain New Jersey Governorship, Gov. Corzine to name Successor in Senate
New York City remains (inexplicibly!) Republican


In other news:


California: Don't let State House Gerrymander: losing in early results
California: Cap State Spending: losing in early results
Texas stays against same-sex marriage
Maine striking down anti-gay-discrimination legislation
California: Limit Tenure for Teachers: too close to call
California: Limit Union Spending on Elections: winning in early results


More info available at http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/08/election.roundup/index.html
, though it will probably be out of date soon...

Cheers

[snowdog]

LOL, yea that gay marriage ban amendment in TEXAS. I gotta a kick outta
that. the people of Texas have spoken quite clearly. NO GAY MARRIAGES !

as for the elections, Yes, the Dems came out better than the Republicans
it appears. Its the nature of the beast. Yes, I think the Dems should do
prety good next november. ANd then perhaps in 08, then the Dems will
not do as what the majority of the country wishes for, and the Republicans
will come back in. Its a cycle that turns over and over and over.

[haus]

Believe it or not, the party wants your money! As far as I can tell, this offer is good until 12 Nov 2005.

http://a9.g.akamai.net/7/9/8082/v003/democratic1.download.akamai.com/8082/images/email/20051109_bumper.gif bumper sticker for $25 contribution (https://www.democrats.org/page/contribute/enough)

Let the lambasting of my shameless shilling commence! :)

Cheers

[MAGI]

LOL, yea that gay marriage ban amendment in TEXAS. I gotta a kick outta
that. the people of Texas have spoken quite clearly. NO GAY MARRIAGES !

as for the elections, Yes, the Dems came out better than the Republicans
it appears. Its the nature of the beast. Yes, I think the Dems should do
prety good next november. ANd then perhaps in 08, then the Dems will
not do as what the majority of the country wishes for, and the Republicans
will come back in. Its a cycle that turns over and over and over.

One of these days you're going to find that most issues are not republican or democrat!

Liberal does not mean only democrats believe in Gay rights (for one).......abortion for another and on and on. Republicans are involved in those issues as well so some vote for them! These are Civil rights..................PRIVATE! .......and an American RIGHT! And I will support them as some republicans do.

Especially God and Jesus............ belong to all polical parties. They are republican as well as democrat, progressive or whatever.

I am "conservative" on many issues. Republicans don't own conservative!

Constitutional rights belong to ALL of US! That is why I am NOT republican!

If liberal means the right to have what our constitution gives us....then YES, I am a LIBERAL and PROUD of it!

[snowdog]

If liberal means the right to have what our constitution gives us....then YES, I am a LIBERAL and PROUD of it!


I can only suggest that you inform yourself with more neutral media outlets.

[MAGI]

One of these days you're going to find that most issues are not republican or democrat!

Liberal does not mean only democrats believe in Gay rights (for one).......abortion for another and on and on. Republicans are involved in those issues as well so some vote for them! These are Civil rights..................PRIVATE! .......and an American RIGHT! And I will support them as some republicans do.

Especially God and Jesus............ belong to all polical parties. They are republican as well as democrat, progressive or whatever.

I am "conservative" on many issues. Republicans don't own conservative!

Constitutional rights belong to ALL of US! That is why I am NOT republican!

If liberal means the right to have what our constitution gives us....then YES, I am a LIBERAL and PROUD of it!

Reading and listening and having the intellect to comprehend the point from media..............ie. Limbaugh and Hannity to Al Franken & Ed Shultz........ as I do when time permits, helps to make insightfull determination on the news of the day.

Snowdog, give it a try..you might gain SOME proper perspective! :rolleyes:

[snowdog]

LOL, Again, I believe you do mean well. Your talking about civil rights
to an African-American. I don't remember many Democrates in the mid- 60's
in the south standing up for Black Americas rights.

[Jane of Arc]

You're right snowdog ... there were many white Democrats and Republicans in the South that were racist.

It took the support and pressure from progressive Democrats from the rest of the country to stand up behind Democratic Presidents and pass the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voters Rights Acts against the resistance of conservatives.

You're talking with the same kind of progressive people in this room today.

[Lionhearted]

snowdog is actually quite correct about Southern Democrats, sometimes referred to as Dixiecrats or States Rights Democrats. Thirty something of them walked out of the 1948 Democratic Convention in protest to a few civil rights issues adopted for the Democratic platform that year (not nearly the changes Hubert Humphrey had proposed) and formed ther own party with the slogan "Segregation Forever!" and nominated Strom Thurmond as their candidate. Thurmond carried four states (Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and South Carolina, go figure) and won 39 electoral votes.
By the time the next election rolled around, most returned to the Democratic Party and until 1964 greatly influenced the party in that if a Democrat wanted to win a national election, they had best play ball with the Dixiecrats if they hoped to carry the south.
Lest we forget, however, Lyndon Johnson, a Southern Democrat, who had used the influence of the Dixiecrats to strengthen his position within the party by sending the Civil Rights Act of 1957 to committee where it was "killed", later scared the bejabbers out of white southerners by pushing (and getting passed) the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the 1965 Voting Rights Act.
However, one cannot and should not compare today's parties with their respective pasts. When Nelson Rockefeller lost the Republican nomination in 1956(?), the trend of moderates and liberals leaving the Republican Party started and when Goldwater embraced some Dixiecrat philosophy in 1964 the transistion of the south from Democrat (read Dixiecrat) to solidly Republican began in earnest, which brings us (I suppose, as I personally do not see the Democratic Party as particularly progressive, or particularly liberal, but I digress) to the parties we have today.

[snowdog]

That was probably one of the most informative posts I have read on this
Forum, Lionhart. great job! I must admit, I am not where I should be on
my knowledge of Civil-rights issues. My father, never talked about it much,
I believe he was a bit ashamed growing up. My mother, even today if
one brings it up, she will go off. Her cousin was raped, and because it took
place in the south in the 50's well, I am under the impression that crimes
against blacks didn't see too much justice. I am not one that looks back with
hate like many do...as I grew up on the fringes of change during the 60's so
I really don't feel that I have the right that we all hear the young African-
American men and women yelling about. I do become a bit agitated when I
see a black-American blame the whites because he or she is where they are
at.

[gratelady1]

That was probably one of the most informative posts I have read on this
Forum, Lionhart. great job! I must admit, I am not where I should be on
my knowledge of Civil-rights issues. My father, never talked about it much,
I believe he was a bit ashamed growing up. My mother, even today if
one brings it up, she will go off. Her cousin was raped, and because it took
place in the south in the 50's well, I am under the impression that crimes
against blacks didn't see too much justice. I am not one that looks back with
hate like many do...as I grew up on the fringes of change during the 60's so
I really don't feel that I have the right that we all hear the young African-
American men and women yelling about. I do become a bit agitated when I
see a black-American blame the whites because he or she is where they are
at.

THERE YOU GO AGAIN! Argueing with yourself- should we leave you alone with yourself yet again?

[haus]

The whole Dixiecrat/Southern Strategy phenomenon is a particular interest of mine. Here's a snippet about the end of their affiliation with the Democratic party from Wikipedia...

"In 1948, a group of Democratic congressmen, led by Governor Strom Thurmond of South Carolina, split from the Democrats in reaction to an anti-segregation speech given by Senator Hubert Humphrey of Minnesota, founding the States Rights Democratic or Dixiecrat Party, which ran Thurmond as its presidential candidate. The Dixiecrats, failing to deny the Democrats the presidency in 1948, soon dissolved, but the split lingered. The party's principles were revived by Senator Barry Goldwater of Arizona, the 1964 Republican presidential candidate."

The article is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Strategy

[snowdog]

DNC leadership???? LOL :D what was that vote on immediate pullout
from Iraq? 403 Nay.....3 Yea. Now please tell me more about the DNC
leadership. bunch of ball less wonders.

[gratelady1]

DNC leadership???? LOL :D what was that vote on immediate pullout
from Iraq? 403 Nay.....3 Yea. Now please tell me more about the DNC
leadership. bunch of ball less wonders.

That vote proved to everyone that the so-called "Democrats are in bed with the Repubs, and none are to be trusted, they just pulled that crap, to try and silence all the critics against the war, but even you, can admit that there will now be a great flushing of carreer politicians next year, and there is nothing any of you Fascist can do about it now- ha haa ha! :p

[snowdog]

That vote proved to everyone that the so-called "Democrats are in bed with the Repubs, and none are to be trusted, they just pulled that crap, to try and silence all the critics against the war, but even you, can admit that there will now be a great flushing of carreer politicians next year, and there is nothing any of you Fascist can do about it now- ha haa ha! :p

ummm.....if republicans are Facist.......what does that make Democrats"
the Facist's Bit#$s? :D

[MAGI]

2006, TIME TO CLEAN hOUSE AS WELL AS THE SENATE:

"We the People", at least SOME of us, understand the cronyism that exists in the administration we have today!:


http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113216347138199155-5Z1Ri_om8ITUbV_jD2bx6maguMY_20061116.html

More "people" everyday, are seeing the light

[gratelady1]

ummm.....if republicans are Facist.......what does that make Democrats"
the Facist's Bit#$s? :D

Wow!!! I am impressed!!! Now you get it- you Repub toe-sucking, Imbasile- son of GWB kling-on!!! I am besides myself with the glory of God, that even you could learn something by osmosis (If you hang with us long enough even your dumb ass will understand at some point!)

Niether party is worth the billions of dollars they cost us each year versus the proposed services it get in return!

For example; both parties admit there is no way that they can prevent a terrorist attack here now or in the near future, yet GWB states "if we fight them over there, we can kill them before they kill us"- there are multiple problems with this type of rationale- beyond the paranoid schitzo problem, like how can you justify the first part of his statement, if you execute the second?- confused? dont worry your learned something, just hang in there!

[littlebigman]

:eek: if u r currently involved n 'reform' of the dnc, please run scream'n 4 the doors...chek n2 the nearest funny farm and get help...
any1 who votes dem or repub after the 4th branch{dik} riggs the election and kerry plays along...is a traitor and should b up on treason charges...
need more..?
well just look at how HARD the dem's fight the pirates...they dont, infact they facilitate n evey way cuz they r just more crew on the pirated ship we call the usa...
girl wake up!!!
we need u 2 b use'n ur head and make'n the status quo dead'{n a manner of speak'n}

[MAGI]

I am for Ralph Nader's principles! Love Molly Ivins! Want an honest world! Gets us nowhere................... I calls 'em as I sees 'em!
Currently I see no better option...that's why I'm on this site.......what DO we DO?

I like the IRV idea.

What do you propose, Littlebigman?

[littlebigman]

I am for Ralph Nader's principles! Love Molly Ivins! Want an honest world! Gets us nowhere................... I calls 'em as I sees 'em!
Currently I see no better option...that's why I'm on this site.......what DO we DO?

I like the IRV idea.

What do you propose, Littlebigman?

ok magi my luv, here s what i propose...life goes on 4ever so,

1. dont ever buy the bs that 'this s the most important vote of ur life'!!!

2. 4 god sakes vote 4 TRUTH no matter what!!! no comprimises!!! children starve 2 death at the expence of such NO MATTER WHAT!!!

3. girl, sumtimes we gatta grow up and face that THINS USUALLY GET WORSE B4 THEY GET BETTER...Y...its called evolution...and hav'n 2 adapt 2 diversity enduces evolution...

4. if u do not VOTE 4 TRUTH even if u c it as a waste of ur vote, u r the prob!!!...and it s u who will keep us from grow'n faster n2 sumday b'n a responsible form of life...NOT THE MASTERS/CORPSE PIRATES...

5. its no longer bout vote 4 ur life' and never was, its all bout fight 4 ur life...u either do that with guns, or u can EVOLVE n2 the edu u claim 2 hav and fight them n the apropriat venue...THE COURTS!!!{where john scary and his platoons of law'yers should hav been long b4 the election ever took place...but he couldnt, cuz he voted 4 the dog and pony bait and switch election reform...so he woulda just had egg on his face:eek:}

please girl, think hard on this...cuz it s noth'n short of a fight 4 ur life!!!

[Jane of Arc]

4 real LBM!

[littlebigman]

4 real LBM!
word...WHAT!!! :D

[MAGI]

We are headed toward violence.........not WHAT I want for my children!
Courts? Sure, we saw how the Supreme courts did "the people" in... in 2000!

Can we sue the government?

No, littlebigman..........we must turn the tide........in 2006 or there will be riots in the streets ..................all too soon!

Not what our children need.

Depending on our wage scale and difference in our ages (you're younger than my children) at this time, perhaps, makes us look at things differently.

I have hope that you young people will turn this fascist government around and have a DEMOCRACY for REAL!

[littlebigman]

We are headed toward violence.........not WHAT I want for my children!
Courts? Sure, we saw how the Supreme courts did "the people" in... in 2000!

Can we sue the government?

No, littlebigman..........we must turn the tide........in 2006 or there will be riots in the streets ..................all too soon!

Not what our children need.

Depending on our wage scale and difference in our ages (you're younger than my children) at this time, perhaps, makes us look at things differently.

I have hope that you young people will turn this fascist government around and have a DEMOCRACY for REAL!

magi, god luv ya but wtf makes u thin u r so above the thins ur tax $ pay 4 2 happen n other countries and not here n ur safe heaven?

2nd...its the courts or the streets...i work n fed court fight'n this shit WITH NO HELP AND NO FUNDING AND RISK"N THE LIVES OF MYSELF AND MY FAM 24/7...so fku!!! u hav the fkn nerve 2 say n another thread that percy s a bless'n cuz he gets dragged n2 court and lost,
yet u hav no clearly hav no idea wtf even happend or how the dam courts even work...please dont throw the justice baby out with ur bathwater cuz when u do ur condem'n my children 2 fight and die n the streets of a BLOODY CIVIL WAR!!! dam!!! im sory magi, but its ur kinda logic that s slowly but surely kill'n us and our children...

the statement u make only sreves the 1s that could care less about urs or my fams as long as we r play'n along...

u r deep n2 the MANUFACTURED discent that they must keep all oposition sukkerd n2 so they can control u even as u think ur 'fight'n' bak...

please excuse my inapropriat words here but i am so sik of read'n this kinda shite when those kids ur talk'n bout life's r at stake...
and the 1s ur not talk'n bout r already dead and die'n...

how many starved 2 death or were killed just 2day magi thanx 2 ur taxes and all the vote'n uv done throughout ur life..?

no sweeti...the time 4 all that was when we were fooled by a system that can only work 4 the few'and only n the short term at that...

u want 2 really do sumtn..?

then brake out the box...put ur older then mine body out their and demand justice 4 all...get arested if u find ur edu didnt teach u what u need 2 know about how 2 fight n civil court...

go 2 texas and stand with cindy the hand!!!

and 1 more thin girl, dik {4th branch} says it almost like u when he says 'better 2 fight the war over there than here n our streets'...
OH MY GOD WOMAN CANT U C WHAT U R SAY'N!!!
we MUST bring this fight bak 2 where the dam root of the thin s!!!
and try 2 bring it off those pps 'over there'...do ya c what i mean?
if not, i will try 2 explain further!!!
:(

[MAGI]

No, I don't see what you mean, honestly. So say it clearly. Tell me WHO you wish to see in power. Tell me HOW you propose to get started.............but say it so little dumb me can decipher.

If we are talking about percy s being the man who didn't have to pay Monsanto those MILLIONS of bucks....to me .........he won that battle. Yes, he, we, the world lost that battle.........& are WE going to let the present administration continue to select judges all over this country?

I had a fight with our town, the State....the EPA.......... I had to round up the neighborhood! It was exhausting, frustrating, you name it! I had to FIGHT our original lawyer! Of all things, one of his asssitants went to work for the TOWN..in the midst of our suit!

It wound up a draw........but the threat was always there!

I am asking you to explain and be civil.........I am not your enemy......I, am looking for a civil way OUT of the MESS we're in.

You're a lawyer.....GREAT! How about drafting a simple proposal for National heatlthcare? One that can be posted in newspapers & literature throughout the country, that can be enlarged .. and copied and carried to any who are interested!
A petition to our lawmakers............bombard our lawmakers! Wouldn't that be a wonderfull way to get healthcare for the least of us and put a stop to corporate America brainwashing "the people"?

Or are you against National healthcare?

[MAGI]

Time ran out in my edit so here's where I'm coming from.

No, I don't see what you mean, honestly. So say it clearly. Tell me WHO you wish to see in power. Tell me HOW you propose to get started.............but say it so little dumb me can decipher.

The only college I had was our high school college course and a few business courses in our community college. I married young and my husband & I struggled 10 years to get enough money for a down payment to buy our home.

11 years later our town decided it was going to "green up" the 36 acres of stripped mountain behind my home which they acquired from the constuction company who bought it for gravel.............. to build roads.

I ran into an environmental problem with my TOWN.

It was a fine way to dump the solid matter remaining after the "effluent" drained into the ground water from the septic "lagoons"..................Save the town money.........

I had to round up the neighbors to get enough money to fight it!

Talk about APATHY!

Lawyer...said lagoons antiquated system ...9 more reasons ...environmental.....TRO....lawyers assistant went to work for the town I learned later , after going to our courthouse and reading OUR file! I had to read and learn about pollution, the law............
NOT EASY!

Polluted Politics:

It ended in a draw. I HATED our town POLITICS! State Politics! The D.E.P, The E.P.A., Our LAWYERS! My husband, our neighbors!

what an awful time in my life!!!!!!!!!

If we are talking about percy s being the man who didn't have to pay Monsanto those MILLIONS of bucks....to me .........he won that battle. Yes, he, we, the world lost that battle.........& are WE going to let the present administration continue to select judges all over this country?

I am asking you to explain........... and be civil.........I am not your enemy......I, am looking for a civil way OUT of the MESS we're in.

You're a lawyer.....GREAT! How about drafting a simple proposal for National heatlthcare? One that can be posted in newspapers & literature throughout the country, that can be enlarged .. and copied and carried to any who are interested!
A petition to our lawmakers............bombard our lawmakers! Wouldn't that be a wonderfull way to get healthcare for the least of us and put a stop to corporate America brainwashing "the people"?

Or are you against National healthcare?

[littlebigman]

magi,
i feel such a heel 4 yesterdays speel...im sory :(

i should tell u first that i am no law'yer...they make me sik...

2. i dont go 4 outscource'n...that means i do 4 myself whenever i can...and even if it turns out i cant, i find that out from try'n first...

3. that means ur speak'n 2 a 42 year old man with an 8th grade edu rais'n 2 children on my own{home school}and fight'n 2 my last breath 4 peace and responsibility...im gues'n u didnt read my last brief 2 the court n my current case?

a big part of the prob n the case u describe s that u had a law'yer runn'n the show instead of just provide'n the tech input u needed...

courts proceed n an entirely different manner when 1 acts n pro per'
ud b suprised...

i happen 2 b n front of 1 of these 'conservativ' magistrates and judges u speak of...i'll take'm over ur comprimize'n liberals any day...y u might say..?
bcuz im reach'n 4 my natural bootstraps and the 'cons' hav a real hard time try'n 2 turn me bak...

here s an org try'n 2 describe the current case...

"To:aro@drugsense.org

Clarification re: Ron Kiczenski's Case

Ron Kiczenski has clarified to the HIA & Vote Hemp
that more correctly than being about a religious right
to psychoactive as well as non-drug plants including
industrial hemp, his case is about asserting the
inborn fundamental human and spiritual right to all
plants as part of our species interdependence and
survival. In particular, seeds of industrial hemp
varieties are specifically at issue before the court,
although the case encompasses all varieties of
cannabis and other controlled plants.

*********
Ron's response to HIA & VH's characterization (posted
to ARO November 12) of his
case in his own words:

"The case is not now nor has it ever been about
"drugs"...
What the case is, is an argument 4 growing a 100,000
Industrial Hemp Seeds based on the facts of
life/nature =
Specie interdependency, ecosystems survival and
evolution =
The Laws of Nature...= my "religion"...
Even D.O.J. has admitted on the record that this case
is not about drugs...
This case says that we humans are just a part of
nature and cannot be separated from nature by laws
that go to leave us dependent, (or criminals)...on a
life style that manufactures cancer ...
This case was also meant as a cornerstone building
block in the foundation 4 a case 2 challenge the
legalities/constitutionality's of GMO patents...we are
in an effort to stop the ownership of life, which all
starts when you can outlaw life..."

Alexis Baden-Mayer, Esq.
Director of Government Relations
Vote Hemp
http://www.votehemp.com
1858 Mintwood Place, NW #4
Washington, DC 20009"

go 2 this thread and read the last brief magi, i dont need 2 propose as u say, im already well on the way down the road of implementation...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liv_past_brokendna/message/98

i am not ur enemy either,
luv'lbm

[MAGI]

I am both conservative AND liberal............. depending on the issue........it's why I have come to dislike the term liberal. The Repubs have reduced the term to a dirty word.................something far LESS than it's definition! "The "people" bought into it........... I am searching for the truth and liberty and justice for ALL............... and any lawyer, judge who respects our constitution..........has my respect (unless that person interperts it differently than I.) :D

I'll have to read the case(s) later. Hope I can fully understand it.....them.
Just have time to post Cindy's last letter I glimpsed on BUZZFLASH .....and get moving.

Peace and best of luck on your action(s).

[MAGI]

Hi littlebigman,
I was afraid I wouldn't understand the legal mumbo jumbo, but I just read the last site you cited on your last post (not the first yet.........will do after I post this.) and found it written so even a layman like me can make sense of it. I hope your case wins, it certainly has merit!, and wonder if it will be acted on soon.

Just a while ago I read, when nylon (rope) came on the scene, there was no more need for hemp......uh huh.......the nylon manufacturer wanted hemp off the market.............so.... no competition for them if they could get rid of hemp!

I know all about that @#*!......... of THEM trying to get you to quit by trying to make YOU do the testing to prove your case.

The Town wanted me to prove there was toxins in the sewerage, which would contaminate the groundwater, to continue my case!

Fortunately there WERE gd pple out there who helped me. I even got help from the University in a nearby town and the BEST man I ever came across, who headed up The Earth Sciences there! A man of conscience as well as the most educated, down to earth, person I ever need to know!

He was, is, my HERO...........though I've only seen him in town only about 6 times these past 28 years.

Sounds like you have enough evidence about hemp being different than cannabis. I hope the judge sees it that way! Don't need further TESTS! Good idea about religion! I see religion as a way of life! Good approach! :) Will look up definition of religion when finished (in time to edit I hope).

I have many questions about you, your family, the countries you are supporting. It will change nothing, because I believe as you do. Corporate $$$$$$$$$ are controlling the WORLD for SURE! AND I HATE IT!

thumbs up!

[MAGI]

AH SOOOOOOOOOOOO..............
I had no idea Hemp had so MANY uses! Even omega 3...........
Should have read the first one first........
Now to get the issue ON THE TABLE...........LAWMAKERS!

[MAGI]

Turned everything off....got in bed.........and it hit me! Too late to edit.....again!

NOW I know what you mean abouts the courts, LBM. Dont NEED the LAWMAKERS when you win your case! :)

O.K., I can get to bed for sure now.

[littlebigman]

Turned everything off....got in bed.........and it hit me! Too late to edit.....again!

NOW I know what you mean abouts the courts, LBM. Dont NEED the LAWMAKERS when you win your case! :)

O.K., I can get to bed for sure now.
magi i luvu!!!
oh my god u guys r the greatest!!!:o
magi u really gav me just the burst i needed right when i needed it, i'm about 2 write a suplement that must b filed asap b4 the ruling cums :(
its sum real mirical on 34th st. stuff i kidd u not!!! it just came n 2day!!! woooohooo!!!!

Next time your found, with your chin on the ground
There a lot to be learned, so look around

Just what makes that little old ant
Think he’ll move that rubber tree plant
Anyone knows an ant, can’t
Move a rubber tree plant

But he’s got high hopes, he’s got high hopes
He’s got high apple pie, in the sky hopes

So any time your gettin’ low
’stead of lettin’ go
Just remember that ant
Oops there goes another rubber tree plant

When troubles call, and your back’s to the wall
There a lot to be learned, that wall could fall

Once there was a silly old ram
Thought he’d punch a hole in a dam
No one could make that ram, scram
He kept buttin’ that dam

’cause he had high hopes, he had high hopes
He had high apple pie, in the sky hopes

So any time your feelin’ bad
’stead of feelin’ sad
Just remember that ram
Oops there goes a billion kilowatt dam

All problems just a toy balloon
They’ll be bursted soon
They’re just bound to go pop
Oops there goes another problem kerplop

[MAGI]

Littlebigman,
Ya had me singin along as I read those words!
We're routin for Ya, BIGTIME!

"Next time your found, with your chin on the ground
There a lot to be learned, so look around

Just what makes that little old ant
Think he’ll move that rubber tree plant
Anyone knows an ant, can’t
Move a rubber tree plant

But he’s got high hopes, he’s got high hopes
He’s got high apple pie, in the sky hopes

So any time your gettin’ low
’stead of lettin’ go
Just remember that ant
Oops there goes another rubber tree plant"

Your case looks Great and thumbs up from here! :)

[snowdog]

It appears that ol Howard Dean opened up his mouth again. Its people
like him that are gonna let a golden opportunety slip away from the Democrats.

Howard Dean is a baffoon.

[littlebigman]

It appears that ol Howard Dean opened up his mouth again. Its people
like him that are gonna let a golden opportunety slip away from the Democrats.

Howard Dean is a baffoon.
NO sd...HD s a racoon...i am da bafoon :eek:
:D hiya!!! howz ya b mgee?