[gratelady1]

This topic for a thread, is probably the most controversial and the most heated and usually the shortest lived, if there is a good administrator. Some would argue it is because of the fact that both sides of the issue will never rest in peace, while the other exists. Most regulators of this topic dont like how much evil it incites from the members of the discussion board. I want to see if we can discuss this issue here on this board and how long it will last, and how rough it will get. As for myself, I believe there is no money for either party with peace- both sides have been so negativiely/ positively re-enforced to behave, for so long, that they know they cannot afford peace. :(
This is sad, as we are lead to believe year after year, decade after decade, that these two different entities could somehow accept the other. It will never happen, and why this country should even care (considering when and where we are politically today) more about the Middle-east than it it cares about it's own populace. How much money have we invested between the two countries? How many people have died? Who is always behind the murder of peace, everytime we get close? And why is there not more discussion and or discourse about this issue? When we will hate both of these countries equally and admit they are more harm to us than Saddam ever was. When will our leaders finally admit- that there is no positive outcome while either country exist and are in charge? Does anyone out there have an idea of how to rid us of any affiliation with either country?

[gratelady1]

No sooner than I posted this thread, did someone blowup a popular nightclub in Isreal, and for the main purpose of what? To obviously destroy the negotiations currently underway, which of course, PM Sharon did say might happen. Think it is surprising- check the date of the post, then the date of the attack. But what interest me is that all Isreal had to do is say "who they felt were behind the attack"- no emperical evidence proposed and no way for them to actually prove anything about any proposed entity that they would put the blame on. What I want to know is how the Isrealis believe we will tolerate this for ever? With today's technology, they have to be aware that the truth will catch up to them.

[JamesP]

GrateLady: I am not quite clear, overall, on your meaning. What we seem to agree on is that both sides have immersed themselves in the cycle of violence and hatred for so long that they now are just two hideous monsters, quite indistinguishable from each other except for the style of butchery they employ and the fact that one is strong (because of us) and the other weak. It's the Pandora's box opened wide - much like what we are now creating in Iraq.
Needless to say, there are no simple solutions once the demons of perpetual revenge and reprisal are loose.
I've thought, at times, that we should withdraw financial support of Israel until they allow for the establishment of a Palestinian state and cease the occupation. Then, once borders are drawn, the US should put the full force of our military strength behind enforcement. On the other hand, I often feel that we should disengage completely, except for humanitarian aid. Some problems are not solvable and not ours to solve.

[gratelady1]

Here's a start- Why would it be too difficult, to make a public annoucement that we dont support either side- in any fashion and never will, because it is not to our political advantage to do so- till either side can convince the American public otherwise. This way we can say that we have, and enjoy a neutral stance on the subject and thus we will have the moral imperative to say that when someone attacks us it is for no reason other than to kill us, because they hate us- because of who we are and not who we support. This is simple and does not cost us anything (whether it is true or not) and we can begin to level the playing field in the Middle east. Plus we can leave it to the entire U.S. population whether we want to support either side or not. And take the power away from the federal government.

[joepol4]

gratelady and others:
sorry to inject the 'r' word but feel i must,,, since religion plays such a huge part in the middle eastern culture that well -- i'll leave it at that. As for the US -it's kinda the same thing it's east vs. west and staying out of the struggles over there -at least militarily would be wise,,but alas i'm no prophet and whether stated or not Islam seeks world dominance and so it seems do we

[gratelady1]

gratelady and others:
sorry to inject the 'r' word but feel i must,,, since religion plays such a huge part in the middle eastern culture that well -- i'll leave it at that. As for the US -it's kinda the same thing it's east vs. west and staying out of the struggles over there -at least militarily would be wise,,but alas i'm no prophet and whether stated or not Islam seeks world dominance and so it seems do we
Inject the "R" word as much as like, but where is the solution? I could say that to isolate all extremist countries, could be a solution. But my concern about your post Joepol4 is why would this country or any other contemporary country fear the Islamic 12th century countries and their dreams of world domination? Maddona dreamed of world domination when she was young, and just abut acheived it- but alas, only in her mind. To try and say that those 12th century folks are more a danger than GWB and all the technology at his pleasure, and the people he serves (The right wing religous extremist that cant wait to see Jesus), is just as foolish.

[joepol4]

gratelady and others:
just a quick follow-up to this discussion /thread,, i'm not convinced we 'fear' the ancient islamic countries of the middle east per sec - it's just that we're on this course of totalitarian, ownership society, corporate ruled gov't something akin to fascist hitler and germany w mr. rove the new joseph goebbels that we're hangin by a 'thin' thread at democracy remember truman said 'absolute power corrupts absolutely'
but anyway, as to a/the solution a.wait for a higher standard of leadership from Washington b. bring the israelis and palestinians to the table like carter did and help establish once and for all a palestinian homeland c. proceed to march toward nuclear armageddon ---(last resort i hope) i'm all ears for other suggestions

[gratelady1]

gratelady and others:
but anyway, as to a/the solution a.wait for a higher standard of leadership from Washington b. bring the israelis and palestinians to the table like carter did and help establish once and for all a palestinian homeland c. proceed to march toward nuclear armageddon ---(last resort i hope) i'm all ears for other suggestions

Remember that my thesis is that there is no money in resolution to the conflict between Isreal and Palestine, thus why your suggestion has been tried and has failed countless times before, thus why we are here again, despite the efforts of the peanut guy and all other noble leaders since his time. Only through acceptance that no resolution will ever be tolerated by both sides, can we begin to undertsand the real problem and then find solutions to address the problem.
:o good posts though, keep the dialogue coming.

[Michael DeM]

I don't think the US can do much except work with Israeli and Palestinian leaders to encourage their people to stop hating each other. The schools and families of each nationality need to teach children not to hate people of the other nationality. I also agree that the US should withdraw financial support for Israel and declare neutrality in this conflict while still staying involved in working for peace.


proceed to march toward nuclear armageddon

What?

[gratelady1]

I took the "march to nuclear armageddon" to mean the status-quo, if you believe that the end result of all of GWB's policies is to expedite the second coming. In other words lets say we tick-off the countries that do have nuclear weapons already ie. Isreal, N. Korea, etc., then they will find way to give GWB what he wants- AN END TO LIFE AS WE KNOW IT!! in favor of the next life. Note if you dont pay the Isrealis they will come after us. They have the best intelligent forces and best clandestine forces to accomplish what they will, for example look how we are fighting their wars for them.

[gratelady1]

I am a simple person, and feel that the entire M.E. should have been nuked decades ago, but alas, trillions of dollars later, there still seems to be a lack of uniform attention being given to both sdies of this conflict.

[gratelady1]

I love how Fox news is stating that the PM of Isreal is under pressure to act more quickly about their solutions to the problem in the Gaza, and West bank, its really a joke, because the only ones being listen to is the Isrealis. They are the ones in control and the ones saying where they will pull out of, and in what time-line, no one is listening to what the Palestinians want. If the Isrealis would listen, they would answer to the world that there is no way they could ever make the Palestinians happy, because there is no way every Isrealis will ever leave Isreal.

[gratelady1]

Well, here goes Popus, giving away your hard earned money to Middle East interest.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7985453/

50 millions smackolas, to help the Palestinians, my oh my, why cant we just take all of or coffers and burn them in a sea of eternal damnation.

[gratelady1]

Halleluya, there is a God!!
Today in the O'Reilly Factor Radio show, some idiot sat in for Bill (he was on assignment) Anyway there was finally some dialogue, to the fact that they might actually start concidering respecting the enemy, and maybe find out "why they hate us", and some supposed to be expert, was relaying the connection between the U.S. middle east policies and terrorism actuated against the West. DUH!!!!

My point is that it's too late, the only way you can apease the Islamic radical extremist is to put GWB on trial and make him prove what he did was not crimes against humanity, or "War crimes". Otherwise putting pressure on Sharon and the Israelis is a mute point, because they will never leave the Palistinians' homeland, and there will never be peace there, and that alone is the common denominator to strife in the Middle East as a whole.

But I was encouraged that a media outlet like the Factor, would finally admit to and allow dialogue which points to the root cause of our problems. Of course with Bill gone, on assignment- which I found odd, if not just that he did not want to have to face all the "I told you so's" after spending so much air-time defending the current administration's policies.

[gratelady1]

Ok, so here we are two days into the evacuation of Gaza by the Israelis, and I want anyone out there to explain to me why Americans should have to pay the displaced "illegal Jewish settlers", to compensate them for their loss of lands they stole from the Palestinians?

I beg each of you out there in Progressive dream-land, to please call the insane asylum, to come pick me up, because I must be the only one in God's creation that believes that to positively reward this type of behavior, will only lead to more of the same- Alas, why we have been tolerating this type of behavior for over 50 years.

Someone should e-mail their Jewsih friends and explain to them that at some point we will reach a mean, where we will come to a point as logical thinking people, that it would be simpler and cheaper just to nuke the whole region and expel some of those old nukes we have already spent billions on and never used to our advantage.

I much rather see two billion dollars go to mothers of killed soldiers, in the Middle East, who died because of the conflicts caused by the establishment of a Jewish state 50 years ago.

[charlie123]

You need to check your history before making rash statements. The Israelis didn't "steal" ANY land from the "Palestinians" who have never been a recognized, legitimate people. The Israelis WON the land in a war in which they were attacked with no notice or provocation!! How quickly we forget. No winner has EVER been asked to, nor has voluntarily, returned conquered land except the Israelis.

We get more, mostly in terms of electronic inventions and tactical work
than we ever pay to them. We pay more to Egypt, but get NOTHING in return but hate. Israel is the only democracy in the middle of a sea of ignorant, backward, countries ruled by autocracies. We can always count on Israel. Can you say that about ANY other country in the area??

[gratelady1]

You need to check your history before making rash statements. The Israelis didn't "steal" ANY land from the "Palestinians" who have never been a recognized, legitimate people. The Israelis WON the land in a war in which they were attacked with no notice or provocation!! How quickly we forget. No winner has EVER been asked to, nor has voluntarily, returned conquered land except the Israelis.

We get more, mostly in terms of electronic inventions and tactical work
than we ever pay to them. We pay more to Egypt, but get NOTHING in return but hate. Israel is the only democracy in the middle of a sea of ignorant, backward, countries ruled by autocracies. We can always count on Israel. Can you say that about ANY other country in the area??

If your propoganda was supposed to remind everyone that Israel is a purely peaceful, logical, worthwhile cause, then why is your complete arguement in support fro reasons for them not to live there.

[charlie123]

I don't understand who you mean by "them"???

[-V-]

the "Palestinians" who have never been a recognized, legitimate people

I'm no expert on this topic but I'm guessing there is a clue somewhere in your remark as to why the Palestinians are ticked off.

[gratelady1]

You need to check your history before making rash statements. The Israelis didn't "steal" ANY land from the "Palestinians" who have never been a recognized, legitimate people. The Israelis WON the land in a war in which they were attacked with no notice or provocation!! How quickly we forget. No winner has EVER been asked to, nor has voluntarily, returned conquered land except the Israelis.

We get more, mostly in terms of electronic inventions and tactical work
than we ever pay to them. We pay more to Egypt, but get NOTHING in return but hate. Israel is the only democracy in the middle of a sea of ignorant, backward, countries ruled by autocracies. We can always count on Israel. Can you say that about ANY other country in the area??

Your whole thesis, is built on these premises, that a "Conquered people must for some reason abide by some pre-conventionalized international law, that states that;
a) It is- for some reason, better to be conquered than to be stolen from.
b) That once your conquered, you have to abide by the laws of the conquerer.
c) Once you conquered someone, you have the right to dictate the laws.
d) once you have been conquered, the laws must be obeyed.
e) that somehow you must forget how you got conquered and all that you lost.
f) You must never exact any kind of revenge for being conquered.
g) You must forget all the friends and family that were lost to the conquerer.

If you start to get my drift, you can understand why America had to give the native Indians hope of sometime having their own lands, customs- lives, and why we went along with the "Reservation" idea. Was it due to "political correctness" back then, or was it to keep the peace? My point is America has not conquered the American Indians- yet. Anymore than America has "Conquered" Iraq. We "Occupy" Iraq, as well as many other territories and providences, but do we have complete control over the natives "Hearts and minds" as well as their lands and lives?

I can admit, I am not a "Israeli history major", But then again, I dont have to be, I am an American, involved only in local interest- not international American interest. I have stated in past post, that I personnally believe that anyone who puts the interest of another country before the interest of their own is a self- admitting traitor, and should be investigated and hunted down and treated like the traitorous dog he is- but thats my belief!

If you believe that building an Israeli eutopia in the middle of Arabs is a worthwhile endeavor- what in fact, are you capable of admitting, is wrong with you?

The last fifty years has proved it is not an easy task, to say the least, and has proved a political hot potato for this country.

But lets get back to the History- If you are such an expert, explain to me please, why I should give a damn about Israel or any other Middle Eastern country, that it should cost me as much as it has over the last 50 years in lives and money.

But since you like playing with semantics to justify murder, larson, raping and pilage, lets play along with your defintions, I can agree that we should say that Israel conquered lands that before 1950, did not belong to them, and that they can justify that they now-today, own all the lands they have conquered, and that all enemies who do not abide by the conventions implied above, should be extinguished- anihilated, genocided, what-ever- what do you think the end result will be? Do you really believe all other Arabs, will wait till its thier turn to be victimized- the way the people who where on the lands that Israel now claims is theirs- where victimized? You say Israel was attacked, and thus won the lands due to conquering, what do you think the common peasant or fisherman who had nothing to do with government dealings, has to say about your conquering. If anything you are presenting arguement and evidence of the shrewdness of Israelis politics and tactics, and why we should abandon them.

One other thing, if it is legal, and moral to "conquer" someone and take their lives, lands, pocessions, can you please give us your address, we could use the money.

[gratelady1]

Ok, so here we are two days into the evacuation of Gaza by the Israelis, and I want anyone out there to explain to me why Americans should have to pay the displaced "illegal Jewish settlers", to compensate them for their loss of lands they stole from the Palestinians?

I beg each of you out there in Progressive dream-land, to please call the insane asylum, to come pick me up, because I must be the only one in God's creation that believes that to positively reward this type of behavior, will only lead to more of the same- Alas, why we have been tolerating this type of behavior for over 50 years.

Someone should e-mail their Jewsih friends and explain to them that at some point we will reach a mean, where we will come to a point as logical thinking people, that it would be simpler and cheaper just to nuke the whole region and expel some of those old nukes we have already spent billions on and never used to our advantage.

I much rather see two billion dollars go to mothers of killed soldiers, in the Middle East, who died because of the conflicts caused by the establishment of a Jewish state 50 years ago.

I have been accused by some, of not providing adequate proof to (I can only guess) justify my opinions and or statements. I have in the past accused both the Israelis and Palestinians of not ever wanting or allowing peace in their region because there is no money for either in peace.

Try this proof;
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9453473/

[gratelady1]

This topic for a thread, is probably the most controversial and the most heated and usually the shortest lived, if there is a good administrator. Some would argue it is because of the fact that both sides of the issue will never rest in peace, while the other exists. Most regulators of this topic dont like how much evil it incites from the members of the discussion board. I want to see if we can discuss this issue here on this board and how long it will last, and how rough it will get. As for myself, I believe there is no money for either party with peace- both sides have been so negativiely/ positively re-enforced to behave, for so long, that they know they cannot afford peace. :(
This is sad, as we are lead to believe year after year, decade after decade, that these two different entities could somehow accept the other. It will never happen, and why this country should even care (considering when and where we are politically today) more about the Middle-east than it it cares about it's own populace. How much money have we invested between the two countries? How many people have died? Who is always behind the murder of peace, everytime we get close? And why is there not more discussion and or discourse about this issue? When we will hate both of these countries equally and admit they are more harm to us than Saddam ever was. When will our leaders finally admit- that there is no positive outcome while either country exist and are in charge? Does anyone out there have an idea of how to rid us of any affiliation with either country?

Notice something that has not been on the news much lately?

[Adolph]

No sooner than I posted this thread, did someone blowup a popular nightclub in Isreal,

Hmmmm.......what exactly are you saying there gratelady? :confused:

[gratelady1]

Hmmmm.......what exactly are you saying there gratelady? :confused:

The posts are all here and in chronicalogical order, if you cant follow them, I am sorry, but they are here and if you take your time and read them carefully- with a little insight- it may come to you, but how can repeating myself- using my same voice, make it any clearer for you- I dont think it would be appropriate for me to talk down to anyone.

I can only hope that someone smarter than me can elaborate- para-phrase, or speak your particular type of English.

But I can say this, anyone with knowledge of the conflict between Israel and Palestine, knows that everytime peace is close at hand between the two, someone comes in and screws it all up, thus giving both sides pretext to continue the conflict, In my opinion this has gone on too long! Nuke the bastards! If we can justifiably kill babies in Iraq, nukeing the two greatest "notorious" threats to the Middle East- that most of us have no affinity for in the first place, would be no great loss!

[gratelady1]

Remind me again, why we dont let Israel and Iran get it on?

[gratelady1]

WHoops! Seems like Sharon got problem- got solution?

[gratelady1]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10332176/

The previous link is to an cover story about he latest suicide bomber in Israel;
Here we go again, just like I predicted.

A gew points you should pay attention to are these;

Sharon says talks can not continue toward peace till the violence stops.

No complete investigation was required, before the statement was released, because they know who did it and "they will not go easy on whoever is proved to be responsible for this operation,”- this is the best part, both sides are blaming a third party, so neither side assumes responsiblity for the action- "someone from Islamic jihad claimed responsiblity", so boths sides just have to do thier respective parts- Israel blames Palestine and refuses to secure it's country, and Palestine denounces it, but still does not leave the area, to prove they are not the one doing the killing.

Same old, same old- there is no money in peace!

The part that gets me, is both side do not deny, it was a suicide bomber- which in reality means- the one person responsible for the incident is dead, but for some unholy, unethical reason, Israel has long proclaimed it's right to seek justice from anyone and everyone associated or found to support the suicide bomber- this is what current U.S. Admin has learned from Israel- Like 9-11, the persons that did the crime were dead,. and thus-there was noone left to prosecute for the actual crime, so instead we postulated, that we had the moral right to go after those that harbored "terrorist, and, lo- and behold- the rest is history.

Thank God for Israel!!!! the true anti-peace country in the world.

[gratelady1]

Ok, call me crazy, but I second the President of Irans suggestion- MOVE Freakin Israel already!!!!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,178117,00.html

[gratelady1]

And here boys and girls- is the quintessential starting point of the theory "that it was ok to hunt down those "responsible" for terrorist attacks";
"In response, Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir set up a special unit from Israel's top-secret Mossad agency. Its task: to hunt down and eliminate all those involved in the terror attack. The movie is a representation of the Munich attack and the Israeli reprisals."

This quote found on the following article;
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,179597,00.html

It was derived from the soon to be released film "Munich" by Steve Speilberg, and does wonders to prove that it is ok to hunt down your momma or uncle, or even your preacher- if they were "involved"- the key word here is "involved" in any way to the terrorist attack- even though- all the actual perpetrators were dead, but Israeli theory is- there are those that need to be hunted down, that were in any way associated, or helped you, or assisted you, or are related to you, or live on the same continent, or worship the same God- hell any association will do- as long as we can justify killing you or yours- the ultimate anti-terror remedy- like the movie "Terminator", basically if we kill all your kids- we kill all our future enemies- good old Hitler- holocost- genocide- basically mundane stuff- you wouldnt be interested in!

The current admin has practiced this logic and went after Afganistan- and then Iraq- because of associations- proposed "masterminds"- funding of- or providing refuge etc. etc.- The current admin went as far as to declare "if you are with them- your against us- thus you must die too!". The paranoid delusional schitzo- psychosis- has spread and has become a social disorder that stinks to high heaven and if God get a wiff- lord help us all!

Point in fact- like with the twin towers- nothing can actually be proved (everyone must admit and agree everything and everyone on the planes were oblitorated and even CSI New York cant prove there was any Iraqi blood in the debris), and the actual perpetrators (who ever they were and who ever they served) all died in the towers attack, so Bush (to divert attention from his ineptness to protect us) went after all those "invovled"- what a great guy! Thanks Bush, with logic like that, all we have to do is make an association between you and the Saudis that actually committed the crime, and your butt is history- Oh thats right you are associated to the Bin Laden family- I forgot, and I guess all U.S. Senators and Congressmen should be coming to collect you soon! Right?

In the end and 33 years later- all Israel has accomplished with thier (Mafia derived "and ill kill all your family") theory is perpetual hatred in the region by thier loving Arab neighbors- so guess what we will reep in about 33 years?