[-V-]

If you follow the Bible, use animals to plow your fields but don't kill or eat them. Consider these passages:

"It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwellings, that ye shall eat neither fat nor blood"
(chap.Leviticus 3.17)

"Ye shall eat no fat, of ox, or sheep or goat. And the fat of that which dieth of itself, and the fat of that which is torn of beasts, may be used for any other service: but ye shall in no wise eat of it. . . Even the soul that eateth it shall be cut off from his people. And ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast"
(chap. Leviticus 7:26-27).

"He that killeth an ox is as he that slayeth a man."
(chap. Isaiah 66 verse 3).

"While the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed the wrath of the Lord was kindled against the people, and the Lord smote the people with a very great plague."
(chap. 11, verses 20, 33).

"And God said: Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed which is upon the face of all the earth and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat, and to every beast of the earth, . . . I have given every green herb for meat."
(chap. 1, verse 29).

[Badandy]

I eat cow, pig, and chickens.



Call me a murderer, but they're good.

[-V-]

Call me a murderer, but they're good.

you're a murderer.

you would probably taste good too, but even is you are weaker or less intelligence, I don't have any right to abuse you, kill you (or pay someone to do it for me) and then eat you.

[gratelady1]

Consider these passages:

"It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwellings, that ye shall eat neither fat nor blood"
(chap.Leviticus 3.17)

"Ye shall eat no fat, of ox, or sheep or goat. And the fat of that which dieth of itself, and the fat of that which is torn of beasts, may be used for any other service: but ye shall in no wise eat of it. . . Even the soul that eateth it shall be cut off from his people. And ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast"
(chap. Leviticus 7:26-27).

"He that killeth an ox is as he that slayeth a man."
(chap. Isaiah 66 verse 3).

"While the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed the wrath of the Lord was kindled against the people, and the Lord smote the people with a very great plague."
(chap. 11, verses 20, 33).

"And God said: Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed which is upon the face of all the earth and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat, and to every beast of the earth, . . . I have given every green herb for meat."
(chap. 1, verse 29).

So your only defence for animals is that the bible says "dont touch"- maybe you should review who wrote the bible. And by the way plants are living creatures also, so what should we eat- our own pride? And I have to admit I would eat humans, if it was morally and legally appropriate to do so, you see my ancestors were Anuahuac indians and when you lived in their world (back then) and the whiteman came along, well meat is meat, and some animals die so we can live. I have known starvation and I live on a farm, I raise livestock for slaughter, and I would eat my weiner dogs if it meant survival. Am I crude? No, just realistic and honest. By the way, I know that eating humans is not legal or morally acceptable, so dont bother sending the feds after me or judging me about a hypothetical.

[Michael DeM]

What I have a problem with is the unnecessary killing of animals. Okay, sometimes we need to kill and eat animals to survive. Sometimes we need to go to war to survive, but that doesn't mean we should start unnecessary wars.

[-V-]

So your only defence for animals is that the bible says "dont touch"the Bible is my weakest defense for animals. It is only mentioned here because it ties in with the premise for this particular thread

I have a problem with the unnecessary killing of animals. that and the abuse of animals is indeed the important point

Okay, sometimes we need to kill and eat animals to survive. fortunately neither you or I or gratelady "need" to kill and eat animals to survive (and neither did anyone I have ever known).

gratelady you might want to read our comprehensive "Meatrix" thread on this topic here: http://progressivesonline.com/showthread.php?t=150

[snowdog]

there isn't much better food fare than ELK Stew, or a nice well-marinated
Beef steak. As Brother Ted once said. Ya gotta kill em before you can
grill em !"

point is there are over 38,000,000 whitetail deer roaming the forest across
the US.....compared to approx 10 million just 70 years ago.

Elk are now in huntable populations In PA. Mich. and a half dozen other states where they have
long since been gone for almost a century.

I realize it is known, but hunters/sportmen have contributed more towards
the CONSERVATION of wildlife than all the Peta, Sierra club, etc have,
COMBINED. :)

[snowdog]

Consider these passages:

"And God said: Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed which is upon the face of all the earth and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat, and to every beast of the earth, . . . I have given every green herb for meat."
(chap. 1, verse 29).


Maybe it could be better understood to read the two passages before the
above listed verse.

Chap 1 verse 27..."So God created man in his own image, in the same image of God created he him: male and female created he them."

chap 1 verse 28 "And GOD blessed them and God said unto them, Be Fruitful, and
multifly and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have DOMINION over the fish
of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing thing that
moveth upon the earth." I won't won't claim to be a bible scholar, but
I feel pretty confident that God was saying that we rule over all creatures on
this earth. Dominion, yea I believe that eating beasts would fall under that.

[-V-]

hunters/sportmen have contributed more towards the CONSERVATION of wildlife than all the Peta, Sierra club, etc have, COMBINED how convenient for those with a taste for blood who get a rise out of a bullet penetrating the flesh of one of the earth's thinking feeling creatures. I can't be in the mind of a killer because I'm not one, but I am sure it is not conservation that drives them into the woods early in the morning on their day off.

If we can't find better ways of dealing with overpopulation maybe we ought to start people hunts in Africa as a solution to their starvation problem.

have DOMINION over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing thing How convenient again for man to define dominion to suit his purpose. Our intellectual evolution has given us the power to "rule", but it is the application of that very intellect that obliges us to rule as benevolent nurturing caretakers rather than destructive tyrants who rape and pillage the earth and it's creatures. I don't believe anyone would call what we are doing "replenishing the earth".

[Lionhearted]

For -V-:
I can see the passion of your beliefs in your postings on this topic and realize that you and I would never agree on this subject. I gave up hunting over 20 years ago because I realized it was not something I necessarily enjoyed, however as one poster mentioned, groups such as Ducks Unlimited et al are indeed responsible for most of this country's habitat preservation. Most of us that belong to nature groups (I belong to several, Audubon Society, Nature Conservancy, etc) realize the contribution hunters and fishermen make to this cause and we see them as allies in our fight to preserve habitat, way too much time was lost in butting heads. Many friends and acquaintences I have in these groups are vegan or vegetarian, yet they understand the need for allies and even grudgingly accept what I am sure some may perceive as an unholy alliance with hunters and fishermen. To this day I still buy a hunting/fishing license as most of that fee goes towards habitat preservation. We are all supposed to be stewards of this planet and up to this point we have done a piss poor job of it.
The White-tailed Deer population has gotten totally out of hand in most areas they inhabit. This is apparently due mainly to the loss of natural predators from man's persecution of wolves, coyotes, the big cats, even our agricultural practices that have all but eradicated screw worms. This overpopulation leads to overforaging which contributes to habitat destruction that affects other creatures and eventually starvation for the deer themselves. Personally I would opt for the reintroduction of predators but that is a hard sell as man continually encroaches on wilderness areas. Some of the solutions I have seen are downright ludicrous, a few years ago the deer in Brown County State Park in Indiana became so overpopulated a hunt was held in the park to thin the numbers, and these deer were so used to people they were practically tame, but I digress.
Now I will never call hunters sportsmen until the animals they hunt are armed and can shoot back, but neither will I disparage therm. I actually have more issues with Alley Cat Allies (their stand on the feral cats in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco still irks the hell out of me and I am a cat lover) than with hunters. Nor am I bothered when some human is attacked by a bear, cougar, shark or some other large predator. When you are on their turf or encroach on it, you had best be prepared for the consequences. As I stated, we are stewards, poor ones, imperfect to be sure. Perfection may never be achieved so long as we inhabit the planet with our divisiveness and other faults. But we (at least some of us) are trying.

[-V-]

I gave up hunting over 20 years ago because I realized it was not something I necessarily enjoyed
the irony is, for some at least, hunting is indeed a misdirected desire to connect with nature. When I was growing up I loved fishing. When I grew up I realized what I loved was seeing and touching the animals and the pain and suffering I was causing was in direct conflict with my heart.

[Lionhearted]

the irony is, for some at least, hunting is indeed a misdirected desire to connect with nature. When I was growing up I loved fishing. When I grew up I realized what I loved was seeing and touching the animals and the pain and suffering I was causing was in direct conflict with my heart.

I understand, my personal epiphany came while dove hunting.
Though we are at opposite ends of the hunting and carnivore spectrum, I admire your passion.

[snowdog]

"The White-tailed Deer population has gotten totally out of hand in most areas they inhabit. This is apparently due mainly to the loss of natural predators from man's persecution of wolves, coyotes, the big cats, even our agricultural practices that have all but eradicated screw worms. This overpopulation leads to overforaging which contributes to habitat destruction that affects other creatures and eventually starvation for the deer themselves. Personally I would opt for the reintroduction of predators but that is a hard sell as man continually encroaches on wilderness areas. Some of the solutions I have seen are downright ludicrous"

The entire post was pretty good, I can see and understand a persons
aversion to killing animals. Ironically, the whitetail population isn't over-
populating, because of the loss of natural predators. The predator population
has been stable in most states for the past 70 years. The whitetail "explosion"
is alot to do with with sportsmen and food plots. Deer feed is a billion dollar
a year industry. Out here in Wa. state (Western Wa) we have a stable
blacktail herd, of about 36,000. that number stays about the same year in
and out. mild winters, etc, due to the blacktails feeding areas, a food plot,
wouldn't work. Wa, is among the highest in the nation for Cougar Population,
and other than Alaska, Wa has the largest Black bear Population.
also noted, whitetail deer have an incredible ability of adapting to their environment. Mule Deer, Black tail, aren't so adaptable. Right now the biggest
threat to all deer are Chronic Wasting desease (None in Wa yet) and with
blacktails "hair-loss syndrome" we are currently just getting thru the latter.
whitetail...."Blue-tongue" desease is the one that affects whitetail populations.
I do alot of work with the dept of wildlife, Ie Elk Captures, Bear captures,
Cougar captures, and in a few months a Blacktail deer capture. its all
volunteer work (other than state bio guys/gals) I can't speak for all hunters,
sportsmen, but I give much more back in the area of conservation than what
I take.

[-V-]

What was the Alley Cat Allies stand on the feral cats?

[Lionhearted]

-V-:
Their stand on feral cats was (and still is I believe), capture, sterilize and re-release. The problem I have with that is the re-release part because feral cats do an amazing amount of damage to wildlife. Now I personally do not hold the cats responsible but they are basically an invasive species. Adult cats that have been wild all their lives do not take well (generally) to becoming "pets". Having said that both of my cats were feral but were very young when I got them. They both have been sterilized and never go outdoors and they are fine with that. Even housecats that are allowed outdoors impact your local wildlife (particularly birds and rodents) and being well-fed plays no part in holding their hunting instincts in check. A vet once told me that if you cherish your cat's health you will never allow them outdoors. Well one of my cats is at least 15 years old now so I am inclined to believe him.
Sorry for the somewhat off-topic rant, however if interested an article on feral cats impact on wildlife can be found here (http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/speaker3.html)

[-V-]

I remember hearing about the sterilize and re-release approach and the results regarding the cat population was interesting, however, I have to agree with the points you've made.

It is also very true that people should not let their cat's outdoors for a variety of reasons most significantly if you want to keep them alive and healthy.

[-V-]

What's your alternative to meat eating?

in the interest of enhancing your own physical and mental health some terrific alternatives to start with are any of the thousands of foods that are not derived from cramming thinking feeling animals (same as your dog or cat) in small cages their whole lives with the only concern for their physical and mental health being that which will keep them alive until they are fat enough to slaughter.

[KRITER]

Hey yall,this here my first post.Iv discovered from other discussion boards Im not always good at this and hope Im keeping with the topic.I live in Southern Appalachia off grid.Im a vegan and gro most my own food,freez and can.I got a small home I live alone in on my own property and dont let nobody hunt on it.Im a activist in alot of ways.Im not a beleever of the bible atall or anyother faith just from what Iv seen and xperenced from beleevers.Dont feel like Im needing to a beleever to be a good person.From what Iv seen hunters in general dont care what deer they kill,female,young,old,or male.I use to hunt a reel long time ago and my kin folk hunted,fish and rased critters to eat and for thair skin or hair.Alot of times when alot of female deer are killed Iv noticed more twins.I live with nature I dont try to tame it or chang it.But Im sure me living wair I do has somkind of negative efect.Iv seen bear up close and deer,wild turkey,coons and possum and rattlers,copperheds and black snakes too.I much rather be round them then people.We dont need to be killing nothing.Nature takes care of itself it dont need no help from us.We killing enuff with mountain top removal,cleer cuting for timber or development.Folks thro trash out on the road and critters go out to the road to chek it out and get run over.As long as we maintain and add to human overpopulation all this distruction and killing will keep going.I wonder if hunting wasnt aloed would all these hunters who say they contribute to conservation would still contribute.If folks think thair god or sombodys god made this planet then why are so many beleevers trying to kill it .Seems to me if they think thair god did a good thing theyd be trying to take care of it. Dont meen to ofend nobody just puting thought out there.Hope yall dont mine me kind of sliding in on this talk.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Welcome to POL, Kritter! Thank you for being a good person and for your respect for and love of the wonderul life forms who inhabit our planet.

[KRITER]

If you know anything about country/ farm life, certain circumstances (like survival- to save my life or my stocks lives) requires either I take action or DEATH! [/QUOTE]

I kno country/farm life.Iv dun cattle ranching on horseback and tractor long befor I knu beter.Im part Cherokee, liv in the country and see no reson to kill critters.I learned on my own to gro my own vittals,freez if I hav the luxury of a freezer and rite now I hav a reel small one,I liv alone. I kno to can and kno theres food in the woods without killing. Im vegan for ethical resons and good health is a benefit.Im surounded by hunting wen the seson gets here and hav to defend my land from hunters by walking the land making sure they stay away.Im always looking to learn more about simple living and surviving without outside help and without hurting the environment or critters.To me its being part of nature not its enemy.It can be dun.