[-V-]

If you follow the Bible, use animals to plow your fields but don't kill or eat them. Consider these passages:

"It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwellings, that ye shall eat neither fat nor blood"
(chap.Leviticus 3.17)

"Ye shall eat no fat, of ox, or sheep or goat. And the fat of that which dieth of itself, and the fat of that which is torn of beasts, may be used for any other service: but ye shall in no wise eat of it. . . Even the soul that eateth it shall be cut off from his people. And ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast"
(chap. Leviticus 7:26-27).

"He that killeth an ox is as he that slayeth a man."
(chap. Isaiah 66 verse 3).

"While the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed the wrath of the Lord was kindled against the people, and the Lord smote the people with a very great plague."
(chap. 11, verses 20, 33).

"And God said: Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed which is upon the face of all the earth and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat, and to every beast of the earth, . . . I have given every green herb for meat."
(chap. 1, verse 29).

[JohnSixtySix]

I don't eat cow, pig or chicken. I do eat cheese, eggs and fish.

And if you like, I'll explain my reasoning behind my dietary selections.

[Badandy]

I eat cow, pig, and chickens.



Call me a murderer, but they're good.

[-V-]

Call me a murderer, but they're good.

Your MOTHER would probably taste good too! But just because she is weaker than me and probably of lesser intelligence (if her son is any indication) I don't have any right to abuse her, kill her (or pay someone to do it for me) and then eat her.

Your a murderer.

[gratelady1]

Consider these passages:

"It shall be a perpetual statute throughout your generations in all your dwellings, that ye shall eat neither fat nor blood"
(chap.Leviticus 3.17)

"Ye shall eat no fat, of ox, or sheep or goat. And the fat of that which dieth of itself, and the fat of that which is torn of beasts, may be used for any other service: but ye shall in no wise eat of it. . . Even the soul that eateth it shall be cut off from his people. And ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast"
(chap. Leviticus 7:26-27).

"He that killeth an ox is as he that slayeth a man."
(chap. Isaiah 66 verse 3).

"While the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed the wrath of the Lord was kindled against the people, and the Lord smote the people with a very great plague."
(chap. 11, verses 20, 33).

"And God said: Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed which is upon the face of all the earth and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat, and to every beast of the earth, . . . I have given every green herb for meat."
(chap. 1, verse 29).

So your only defence for animals is that the bible says "dont touch"- maybe you should review who wrote the bible. And by the way plants are living creatures also, so what should we eat- our own pride? And I have to admit I would eat humans, if it was morally and legally appropriate to do so, you see my ancestors were Anuahuac indians and when you lived in their world (back then) and the whiteman came along, well meat is meat, and some animals die so we can live. I have known starvation and I live on a farm, I raise livestock for slaughter, and I would eat my weiner dogs if it meant survival. Am I crude? No, just realistic and honest. By the way, I know that eating humans is not legal or morally acceptable, so dont bother sending the feds after me or judging me about a hypothetical.

[Michael DeM]

What I have a problem with is the unnecessary killing of animals. Okay, sometimes we need to kill and eat animals to survive. Sometimes we need to go to war to survive, but that doesn't mean we should start unnecessary wars.

[-V-]

So your only defence for animals is that the bible says "dont touch"the Bible is my weakest defense for animals. It is only mentioned here because it ties in with the premise for this particular thread

I have a problem with the unnecessary killing of animals. that and the abuse of animals is indeed the important point

Okay, sometimes we need to kill and eat animals to survive. fortunately neither you or I or gratelady "need" to kill and eat animals to survive (and neither did anyone I have ever known).

gratelady you might want to read our comprehensive "Meatrix" thread on this topic here: http://progressivesonline.com/showthread.php?t=150

[gratelady1]

fortunately neither you or I or gratelady "need" to kill and eat animals to survive (and neither did anyone I have ever known).

My point is that of survival, and the when it comes- should it ever come- thus a hypothetical scenario- My point was I could eat animals, if it meant survival- I did say "I only kill animals when necessary". If you know anything about country/ farm life, certain circumstances (like survival- to save my life or my stocks lives) requires either I take action or DEATH! What would you do, die? And one more thing, animals serve human purposes- period, and it should not be the other way- UNLESS, you are like me and serve animals- like the way I serve my stock. If I did not serve them and act as their unconditional steward- other elements of both nature and human influence would mean their demise.

[snowdog]

there isn't much better food fare than ELK Stew, or a nice well-marinated
Beef steak. As Brother Ted once said. Ya gotta kill em before you can
grill em !"

point is there are over 38,000,000 whitetail deer roaming the forest across
the US.....compared to approx 10 million just 70 years ago.

Elk are now in huntable populations In PA. Mich. and a half dozen other states where they have
long since been gone for almost a century.

I realize it is known, but hunters/sportmen have contributed more towards
the CONSERVATION of wildlife than all the Peta, Sierra club, etc have,
COMBINED. :)

[snowdog]

Consider these passages:

"And God said: Behold I have given you every herb bearing seed which is upon the face of all the earth and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat, and to every beast of the earth, . . . I have given every green herb for meat."
(chap. 1, verse 29).


Maybe it could be better understood to read the two passages before the
above listed verse.

Chap 1 verse 27..."So God created man in his own image, in the same image of God created he him: male and female created he them."

chap 1 verse 28 "And GOD blessed them and God said unto them, Be Fruitful, and
multifly and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have DOMINION over the fish
of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing thing that
moveth upon the earth." I won't won't claim to be a bible scholar, but
I feel pretty confident that God was saying that we rule over all creatures on
this earth. Dominion, yea I believe that eating beasts would fall under that.

[-V-]

hunters/sportmen have contributed more towards the CONSERVATION of wildlife than all the Peta, Sierra club, etc have, COMBINED how convenient for those with a taste for blood who get a rise out of a bullet penetrating the flesh of one of the earth's thinking feeling creatures. I can't be in the mind of a killer because I'm not one, but I am sure it is not conservation that drives them into the woods early in the morning on their day off.

If we can't find better ways of dealing with overpopulation maybe we ought to start people hunts in Africa as a solution to their starvation problem.

have DOMINION over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing thing How convenient again for man to define dominion to suit his purpose. Our intellectual evolution has given us the power to "rule", but it is the application of that very intellect that obliges us to rule as benevolent nurturing caretakers rather than destructive tyrants who rape and pillage the earth and it's creatures. I don't believe anyone would call what we are doing "replenishing the earth".

[Lionhearted]

For -V-:
I can see the passion of your beliefs in your postings on this topic and realize that you and I would never agree on this subject. I gave up hunting over 20 years ago because I realized it was not something I necessarily enjoyed, however as one poster mentioned, groups such as Ducks Unlimited et al are indeed responsible for most of this country's habitat preservation. Most of us that belong to nature groups (I belong to several, Audubon Society, Nature Conservancy, etc) realize the contribution hunters and fishermen make to this cause and we see them as allies in our fight to preserve habitat, way too much time was lost in butting heads. Many friends and acquaintences I have in these groups are vegan or vegetarian, yet they understand the need for allies and even grudgingly accept what I am sure some may perceive as an unholy alliance with hunters and fishermen. To this day I still buy a hunting/fishing license as most of that fee goes towards habitat preservation. We are all supposed to be stewards of this planet and up to this point we have done a piss poor job of it.
The White-tailed Deer population has gotten totally out of hand in most areas they inhabit. This is apparently due mainly to the loss of natural predators from man's persecution of wolves, coyotes, the big cats, even our agricultural practices that have all but eradicated screw worms. This overpopulation leads to overforaging which contributes to habitat destruction that affects other creatures and eventually starvation for the deer themselves. Personally I would opt for the reintroduction of predators but that is a hard sell as man continually encroaches on wilderness areas. Some of the solutions I have seen are downright ludicrous, a few years ago the deer in Brown County State Park in Indiana became so overpopulated a hunt was held in the park to thin the numbers, and these deer were so used to people they were practically tame, but I digress.
Now I will never call hunters sportsmen until the animals they hunt are armed and can shoot back, but neither will I disparage therm. I actually have more issues with Alley Cat Allies (their stand on the feral cats in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco still irks the hell out of me and I am a cat lover) than with hunters. Nor am I bothered when some human is attacked by a bear, cougar, shark or some other large predator. When you are on their turf or encroach on it, you had best be prepared for the consequences. As I stated, we are stewards, poor ones, imperfect to be sure. Perfection may never be achieved so long as we inhabit the planet with our divisiveness and other faults. But we (at least some of us) are trying.

[-V-]

I gave up hunting over 20 years ago because I realized it was not something I necessarily enjoyed
the irony is, for some at least, hunting is indeed a misdirected desire to connect with nature. When I was growing up I loved fishing. When I grew up I realized what I loved was seeing and touching the animals and the pain and suffering I was causing was in direct conflict with my heart.

[Lionhearted]

the irony is, for some at least, hunting is indeed a misdirected desire to connect with nature. When I was growing up I loved fishing. When I grew up I realized what I loved was seeing and touching the animals and the pain and suffering I was causing was in direct conflict with my heart.

I understand, my personal epiphany came while dove hunting.
Though we are at opposite ends of the hunting and carnivore spectrum, I admire your passion.

[snowdog]

"The White-tailed Deer population has gotten totally out of hand in most areas they inhabit. This is apparently due mainly to the loss of natural predators from man's persecution of wolves, coyotes, the big cats, even our agricultural practices that have all but eradicated screw worms. This overpopulation leads to overforaging which contributes to habitat destruction that affects other creatures and eventually starvation for the deer themselves. Personally I would opt for the reintroduction of predators but that is a hard sell as man continually encroaches on wilderness areas. Some of the solutions I have seen are downright ludicrous"

The entire post was pretty good, I can see and understand a persons
aversion to killing animals. Ironically, the whitetail population isn't over-
populating, because of the loss of natural predators. The predator population
has been stable in most states for the past 70 years. The whitetail "explosion"
is alot to do with with sportsmen and food plots. Deer feed is a billion dollar
a year industry. Out here in Wa. state (Western Wa) we have a stable
blacktail herd, of about 36,000. that number stays about the same year in
and out. mild winters, etc, due to the blacktails feeding areas, a food plot,
wouldn't work. Wa, is among the highest in the nation for Cougar Population,
and other than Alaska, Wa has the largest Black bear Population.
also noted, whitetail deer have an incredible ability of adapting to their environment. Mule Deer, Black tail, aren't so adaptable. Right now the biggest
threat to all deer are Chronic Wasting desease (None in Wa yet) and with
blacktails "hair-loss syndrome" we are currently just getting thru the latter.
whitetail...."Blue-tongue" desease is the one that affects whitetail populations.
I do alot of work with the dept of wildlife, Ie Elk Captures, Bear captures,
Cougar captures, and in a few months a Blacktail deer capture. its all
volunteer work (other than state bio guys/gals) I can't speak for all hunters,
sportsmen, but I give much more back in the area of conservation than what
I take.

[-V-]

What was the Alley Cat Allies stand on the feral cats?

[Lionhearted]

-V-:
Their stand on feral cats was (and still is I believe), capture, sterilize and re-release. The problem I have with that is the re-release part because feral cats do an amazing amount of damage to wildlife. Now I personally do not hold the cats responsible but they are basically an invasive species. Adult cats that have been wild all their lives do not take well (generally) to becoming "pets". Having said that both of my cats were feral but were very young when I got them. They both have been sterilized and never go outdoors and they are fine with that. Even housecats that are allowed outdoors impact your local wildlife (particularly birds and rodents) and being well-fed plays no part in holding their hunting instincts in check. A vet once told me that if you cherish your cat's health you will never allow them outdoors. Well one of my cats is at least 15 years old now so I am inclined to believe him.
Sorry for the somewhat off-topic rant, however if interested an article on feral cats impact on wildlife can be found here (http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/speaker3.html)

[-V-]

I remember hearing about the sterilize and re-release approach and the results regarding the cat population was interesting, however, I have to agree with the points you've made.

It is also very true that people should not let their cat's outdoors for a variety of reasons most significantly if you want to keep them alive and healthy.

[Wafflepudding]

Your MOTHER would probably taste good too! But just because she is weaker than me and probably of lesser intelligence (if her son is any indication) I don't have any right to abuse her, kill her (or pay someone to do it for me) and then eat her.

Your a murderer.

I know you said this a long time ago, but hell does it still sound rabid. Knee-jerk ad-hominem is always funny, but making things this personal can't be good for your karma (not the site's, actual karma).

What's your alternative to meat eating? growing your own food in your backyard? only eating vegetables from organic farms?

Fortunately I've never bought any of the crap in ye holy buybull (no offense intended to faithful christians, I'm just particularly sick of fundies at the moment).

[-V-]

What's your alternative to meat eating?

in the interest of enhancing your own physical and mental health some terrific alternatives to start with are any of the thousands of foods that are not derived from cramming thinking feeling animals (same as your dog or cat) in small cages their whole lives with the only concern for their physical and mental health being that which will keep them alive until they are fat enough to slaughter.

[thosestupidsquirrels]

I am a Christian who was browsing this thread and was wondering if anyone else caught the total abuse of Scripture here. All the verses listed have been taken out of context and as a Christian I find there is nothing more revolting in the world than misusing scripture to feild an emotional point that someone has.
LEV 3:17 is a verse in a section of verses in which the Lord instructs the Jewish people on how to prepare there meat for food, no fat, no blood, because the fat and blood belongs to Him in offerings. kosher!!!
LEV 7:26,27 again a verse stating that the fat and blood of an animal belonged to God in offering, meat could be eaten but not fat and blood. This is because the fat and blood was considered the best part of the animal and as such it belonged to God
ISAIAH 66:3 this verse talks of sacrificial animals that were being sacrificed with a contrite spirit meaning the people were just going through the motions of sacrifice without the repentant heart for sins committed
NUMBERS 11 :33 I beleive this is what you speak of the book is not mentioned here, This verse talks of when the Lord sent Quail by a great wind. The Lord sent meat because the people were complaining that they should have never left the slave camps of Egypt, because at least they had meat there, The Lord sends them meat and because of their complaints and their disbeleif in God He strickens them with a plague, not because of the partaking in meat.
GENESIS 1:29 To the creation story we go. Most people don't realize that the creation story told among Jewish people in biblical time would have continued until God gave Noah his convenant. This particular verse is before the fall of man and the sin in the garden of eden. YES all things did eat vegetable like plants and the lions and sheep were herded together. What a wonderful picture this paints of heaven. Unfortunately at the fall of man all this is lost, man realizes his nakedness and when the Lord finds man who was hiding in the garden THE LORD makes tunics for them out of skin, the LORD killed the first animals on earth. If you continue with the creation story as the ancient Jewish teachers would have, you will come to the covenant God makes with Noah after the flood. Chapter 9 of Genesis is the entire convenant. God begins by saying be fruitful and multiply, then goes on to say that every beast bird and fish shall have fear of you, and that they are given unto your hand, This next verse will explain God's veiw on eating flesh. 3) Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. Notice the co-relation to Genesis 1:29 all living things will be like the herbs, we can eat it all, the only stipulation is that it's lifeblood is not in it, it has to be dead. The Lord then goes on to say that any beast that kills a man, with that beasts lifeblood the Lord will demand a reckoning, in other words an animal that kills a man must be killed, and the man who kills a man the Lord requires the life of that man. Next the Lord gives Noah the rainbow as a reminder of convenant and a sign that he will never flood the earth in it's entirety ever again.

I have also studied for Four years Conservation Biology to become a wildlife officer in the Province of Alberta in Canada. During this time we did many studies in wildlife population management and focused on reasons as to why populations are getting out of control. Food plots are definately the reason, but not the kind that was mentioned here. Agriculture is a neccessity of life this world has over 6 billion people in it and the needs of those people have resulted in high production agriculture. Wildlife thrive in these high production areas. A typical hunting food plot is approximately 1 acre, 1 acre of land at most would support 10-12 animals if there is vegetation year round. Most food plots do not have quality vegetation year round, in fact most food plots have a growth gestation of approximately 45 days. So a hunting food plot will help a deer, moose or elk for approximately 45 days and if this 1 acre food plot were turned to a high production oat or wheat feild it would support upwards of 20-22 animals for approximately 100-145 days. The reason that hunters will plant food plots is to bring animals to them. it's a tactic that has recently been used due to the encroachment of human activity on lands that are normally inhabitated by wildlife.
Human Activity and the population of the world is the reason behind over population of wildlife.
Over population itself does not in any way a reason to hunt, kill or eat meat but clearly the bible has ok'd meat eating and the practice of hunting and killing.
Please know that there are people who kill animals and are not hunters, I beleive that these people are not in the will of God because Jesus said that we are to obey the governing bodies set before us. Anyone who poaches is not in the will God and will be dealt with justly.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Welcome to POL, tsq. I find intelligence in all of life, life being all of the same source, the one spirit.

There are Christians such as myself who believe the Christian Bible's core message is love, peace and compassion for all of God's creatures. I have hope that other Christians will be persuaded to adopt veganism as part of their lifestyle in furtherance of that core message of Jesus Christ in whose name Christians identify themselves.

The Bible depicts a peaceful world at creation and at the end of time. In the Christian Bible, God found everything in Eden 'very good,' and gave all animals and humans a vegetarian world (Genesis 1:29-30). Several prophecies such as Isaiah 11:6-9, foresee a return to this vegetarian world where the wolf, lamb, lion, cow, snake and little child co-exist peacefully.

In the past people used the Bible to justify slavery, segregation, and the oppression of women. We now understand this was a misuse of the Bible and its true intent. The same is true for eating meat.

The Spirit I pray to is all about love, peace, and compassion for all creation. Jesus said in John 4:24, "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."t

I didn't come to veganism until recently, but it is good that I did come to it. Personnally, I live on fruits, nuts and vegetables. I feel better spiritually because of it and my body is doing well on that diet that tuly does satisfy me.

[thosestupidsquirrels]

Absolutely heaven will see the end of bloodshed human or animal. it will be very good, which when translated from the original language there was no word to do so, this is as close as english comes. It will be more than very good. UNTIL the time which the Lord Jesus Christ comes to rid the world of satan and his armies bloodshed will be a part of it, I am a hunter, I hunt to eat, I can in no way afford to feed my family by buying all of our foods. we eat way more fruits and vegetables and grains than meat but we still eat meat. to afford our meat we hunt just as people have done since the fall of man and the flood of the world. I hunt by the regulations of those who set them before me and I take no elated pleasure in killing animals but instead thank God each and every time a harvest an animal for providing for me and my family. I know that all people don't share my beleifs and would never force them on you (except maybe that every person is born a sinner and that without the narrow way of Jesus Christ's salvation not one person would be saved) but you cannot argue a point using the bible without understanding and discernment. This is the problem I have with -V- and his utter misuse of God's word.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Thank you for your response, tsq. As a follower of Jesus Christ and a Christian who has spent many many years reading, contemplating and meditating on Jesus' words and deeds, I point to Jesus' Sermon on the Mount that Jesus' himself, in his own words, delivered to the ordinary people of his day who where there with him on the Mount that day and heard all he was there to say to them:

The words below are those of Jesus Christ himself that he said in HIS Sermon on the Mount found in Mathew chapters 5 - 8, in part;

"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."

... "Blessed are the merciful; for they shall obtain mercy."

... "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God."

... "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

... "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgement: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgement: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca (Raca in Aramaic means fool, emptyhead, etc. - insults), shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire (loosing integrity, balance, spiritual connection, feeding the EGO and Edging God Out)."

... "Ye have heard that is has been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist NOT evil; but whoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn NOT thou away. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, Bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? ... Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Note that Christian churches teach, "Ye are all sinners" in contradiction to Jesus' teaching here delived to the ordinary people of his day who were there that day with him and heard his words directly.)

... "But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut the door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and they Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use NOT vain repetitions (the rosary, speaking in toungs) as the heathen do; for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. (Christ taught the "Our Father" prayer as a connection to God's mindful intention for the people of Earth and as a way of life.)"

... "Lay NOT up for yourselves treasures upon Earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where niether moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do NOT break through and steal. For where your treasure is there will be your heart also. The light of the body is in the eye; if therefore thine eye be single (focused on the spiritual) thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! No man can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon (anything that draws people away by way of focusing on, or desiring those things that are NOT the things Christ is emphacizing in his teaching here.) Therefore I say unto you, Take NOT thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body more than raiment (clothing)? ... Behold the fouls of the air; for they sow NOT, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. ... And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lillies of the field, how they grow; they toil NOT, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even (King) Solomon (Solomon's clothing) in all his glory was NOT arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which today is and tomorrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore, take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or Wherewithal shall we be clothed? for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil therein."

... "And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine. For he taught them as one having authority, and NOT as the scribes."

[Jennifer_SFBA]

There is one creature of flesh Jesus exeplified to eat, namely, fish. Bread, then, was made of barley.

Matthew 15: 29 - 39

29 Jesus left there and went along the Sea of Galilee. Then he went up on a mountainside and sat down.

30 Great crowds came to him, bringing the lame, the blind, the crippled, the mute and many others, and laid them at his feet; and he healed them.

31 The people were amazed when they saw the mute speaking, the crippled made well, the lame walking and the blind seeing. And they praised the God of Israel.

32 Jesus called his disciples to him and said, "I have compassion for these people; they have already been with me three days and have nothing to eat. I do not want to send them away hungry, or they may collapse on the way."

33 His disciples answered, "Where could we get enough bread in this remote place to feed such a crowd?"

34 "How many loaves do you have?" Jesus asked. "Seven," they replied, "and a few small fish."

35 He told the crowd to sit down on the ground.

36 Then he took the seven loaves and the fish, and when he had given thanks, he broke them and gave them to the disciples, and they in turn to the people.

37 They all ate and were satisfied. Afterward the disciples picked up seven basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over.

38 The number of those who ate was four thousand, besides women and children.

39 After Jesus had sent the crowd away, he got into the boat and went to the vicinity of Magadan.

[thosestupidsquirrels]

Jesus was a Jew and as such was required to follow the practises of the old law. fish was an easy source of clean food and so the jews would have had an abundance of fish. Just because the Bibledoes not speak of Jesus eating the fatted calf at weddings and such does not mean that he didn't partake of it. I turn your attention to acts 10 starting at verse 9, this is where Peter is on the rooftop and get hungry and falls into a trance then has a vision of all the unclean and common animals and the Lord says to him 13 And a voice came to him "Arise, Peter, kill and eat." Peter then says I can't eat this I have never eaten the common or unclean things 15 and a voice spoke to him again the second time "What God has cleansed you must not call common"
This passage means that upon the crucifixion of Christ jews where no longer to call things unclean anything could be permitted as long as it was within the will of God and that the Jews and Gentiles were now on a level playing feild, ceremonial sacrifice and the type and preparation of food no longer matters, curcumcision doesn't matter it is the heart that God looks upon and without Christ as the head of your life you are not saved. I do not worry about what I will eat the Lord provides for me every day.

[KRITER]

Hey yall,this here my first post.Iv discovered from other discussion boards Im not always good at this and hope Im keeping with the topic.I live in Southern Appalachia off grid.Im a vegan and gro most my own food,freez and can.I got a small home I live alone in on my own property and dont let nobody hunt on it.Im a activist in alot of ways.Im not a beleever of the bible atall or anyother faith just from what Iv seen and xperenced from beleevers.Dont feel like Im needing to a beleever to be a good person.From what Iv seen hunters in general dont care what deer they kill,female,young,old,or male.I use to hunt a reel long time ago and my kin folk hunted,fish and rased critters to eat and for thair skin or hair.Alot of times when alot of female deer are killed Iv noticed more twins.I live with nature I dont try to tame it or chang it.But Im sure me living wair I do has somkind of negative efect.Iv seen bear up close and deer,wild turkey,coons and possum and rattlers,copperheds and black snakes too.I much rather be round them then people.We dont need to be killing nothing.Nature takes care of itself it dont need no help from us.We killing enuff with mountain top removal,cleer cuting for timber or development.Folks thro trash out on the road and critters go out to the road to chek it out and get run over.As long as we maintain and add to human overpopulation all this distruction and killing will keep going.I wonder if hunting wasnt aloed would all these hunters who say they contribute to conservation would still contribute.If folks think thair god or sombodys god made this planet then why are so many beleevers trying to kill it .Seems to me if they think thair god did a good thing theyd be trying to take care of it. Dont meen to ofend nobody just puting thought out there.Hope yall dont mine me kind of sliding in on this talk.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Welcome to POL, Kritter! Thank you for being a good person and for your respect for and love of the wonderul life forms who inhabit our planet.

[KRITER]

If you know anything about country/ farm life, certain circumstances (like survival- to save my life or my stocks lives) requires either I take action or DEATH! [/QUOTE]

I kno country/farm life.Iv dun cattle ranching on horseback and tractor long befor I knu beter.Im part Cherokee, liv in the country and see no reson to kill critters.I learned on my own to gro my own vittals,freez if I hav the luxury of a freezer and rite now I hav a reel small one,I liv alone. I kno to can and kno theres food in the woods without killing. Im vegan for ethical resons and good health is a benefit.Im surounded by hunting wen the seson gets here and hav to defend my land from hunters by walking the land making sure they stay away.Im always looking to learn more about simple living and surviving without outside help and without hurting the environment or critters.To me its being part of nature not its enemy.It can be dun.