[-V-]

It depends on the size and destructive power of your "arms".

The right to protect yourself does not mean you can have your own personal WMD or bazooka. Aren't automatic weapons capable of mass destruction? Can't a citizen protect their home with a rifle? Why would concealable hand guns have to be legal for individuals other than law enforcement, security personnel, and in other special situations?

[Badandy]

"Why would concealable hand guns have to be legal for individuals other than law enforcement, security personnel, and in other special situations?"

2nd amendment. While there should be restrictions such as no automatic weapons, conclealable handguns should be perfectly legal.

[-V-]

2nd amendment.

the question is why, not what number the amendment is.

[Badandy]

Concealable weapons have to be legal for self protection. I am alright with handguns, just not with automatic weapons. Handguns have to be legal though because of protection. The founders of the constitution were genius's.

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms..." - Richard Henry Lee, 1788, Member of the First U.S. Senate.

[Badandy]

"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878


"...to disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them..." - George Mason

[-V-]

you can't protect yourself with a non-concealed weapon?

[treehugginliberal]

Hi guys, did'ja miss me? :D First off let me just say, insomnia sucks!
Okay to the topic at hand, this is a divisive subject that really should not be so except that the rethuglicans with the help of the NRA (National Redneck Association) have made it a point to let the unwashed masses know that liberals want to take your guns from you. To that I say, Bovine defecation! Sure most of us support bans on automatic weapons (which this administration has thus far failed to renew) but to equate regulation with prohibition and running it up the second amendment flagpole is pure bunk! If we ban anything it should be the NRA. Personally if I would ever have cause to defend myself with a firearm, I believe I would prefer a shotgun as opposed to a handgun, but hey if you want a handgun and can use it without hurting yourself or more importantly anyone else (like me for example), then by all means knock yourself out. All I'm saying if you want a gun that bad then signing some papers and waiting a few days should not be a problem. Unfortunately I am afraid there are already way too many folks who own guns that have no business picking up a sharp object much less a gun. I swear the next time I hear some wingnut say that libs want to take your guns away, I'll shoot him. Just kidding :p

[gratelady1]

There may be more than one issue here, like crime and how you protect yourself, and then the issue of how much firepower you need. Personnaly I like the old assured mutual aniliation theory- If you have a nuke then I better have one to, or if you have a knife I better practice with mine. The assumption here is that your defence is bulit on your own personnal fear. I dont have much use for guns, and hope I wont need any in the near future. I kill an occasional snake, and or predator trying to eat my chickens and ducks and geese and guinis, otherwise I dont kill anything if I dont have to. I use live traps as much as I can and when I catch something, I take it to the Vet school at Texas A&M (I caught a grey fox once). I dont fear my fellow man, and hope he does not fear me. But every 4th of July and Newyears, I take out my arsenal and let go a volley that allows my neighbors to understand I have the ability to defend my home (knock on wood, I have the best most respectable neighbors in the world- I love them and they love me- despite the arsenal I keep) I dont want the rest of the U.S. in my gun cabinet! Accept that I am well armed and that I will use my arsenal to defend my capitalistic endeavers, my family and even your rights as Americans. As for carrying a concealed gun, I hope I have the intelligence to not need one, and those who do realize the amount of discomfort and responsiblity that goes along with doing so (if you have experience doing so, you know what I mean). Otherwise the constitution is set on this issue.

[snowdog]

you can't protect yourself with a non-concealed weapon?

yes, but its difficult to stow a shotgun in a womens purse, or in a mans
shoulder holster, great example of this is police officers, thats why their
primary weapons are handguns. Also hand guns are so much less
cumbersome in close quarter combat.

[-V-]

yes, but its difficult to stow a shotgun in a womens purse, or in a mans
shoulder holster

if you want to carry around a weapon that is deadly to other's in the interest of "looking out for #1" (the essence of Republicanism) than the awkward, non-Gucci aspect of it is the price you have to pay.

[snowdog]

if you want to carry around a weapon that is deadly to other's in the interest of "looking out for #1" (the essence of Republicanism) than the awkward, non-Gucci aspect of it is the price you have to pay.

well actually I don't worry bout that since I have carried a ccw for the past
12 years. Have I ever used in in my own defense? nope. but on two occasions
in those past 12 years... I prevented an enraged man from beating the heck
outta his 14 yr old daughter, Well He had already been beating her when I drove by. and in down town SEATTLE 3 years ago, A gay person I Felt, about
to be beaten up by 3 street thugs. As I approached, I simply made sure they
seen I was carrying, and disgruntled they dispursed, I talked with the guy,
he asked me to help him get to his car which I gladely Obliged.

[snowdog]

And I'd like to point out......don't all of us look out for number 1?
If I don't look out for myself, how can I look out for my family,
My community, My COUNTRY !!!

[-V-]

as cinematically conveyed in the movie "A Beautiful Mind" the liberal solution to your pursuit of safety, prosperity, etc.. is:

No one really wins, unless everyone wins :D

Regarding your gun anecdotes, both situations could have been resolved without the presence of a "fire stick", which, alternatively, could have aggravated the situation if the antagonists came back with a bigger "fire stick" resulting in a wild, wild west situation.

In modern America, the cell phone is mightier than the sword. I hope for your sake and others you flash that the next time instead of a weapon.

[Randy]

Snowdog: Although I believe in your rights to own firearms, I am somewhat concerned over your cited incidents whereas you felt justified in your dispaying your firearm to stop these attacks. Perhaps I am wrong but with repsect to the second incident mentioned, you say you 'felt' the guy was gay. With no physical violence occuring at this point, do you not believe your actions could have ignited a more serious situation. Please explain. I believe you have the right to carry a firearm to defend yourself from a life threatening situation but I believe you have exceeded your rights by becoming involved in a situation that you personally were not being attacked. I have carried a firearm for many years and I pray that I never have to let anyone 'know' that I have it.

[snowdog]

Randy, Please re-read what I wrote, I said I felt he was about to get his
ass beat up. I told the three to get the hell away from him, They came
towards me, threatening me.. I never pulled anything out, but I made it clear that I was
carrying, this avoided a confrontation.

As for the first incident, it was a guy that lived about a block down from
me, I was driving home and scene and heard a young girl screaming and
getting Punched by her father. I stopped my vehicle ran up on the situation,
yelling at the guy to get off her. He grabbed a rake and was yelling at me
to get the F$#@ outta there that it was between him and her. I Pulled out
my revolver, and warned him that I will shoot. The girl ran back into the
house. I guess with her mother. apparently one of the neighbors had called
the police, when they showed up, I was taken to the side by one cop,
while the other three cops cuffed the guy and went into the house. The
child beater made sure the cops knew I was carring a gun and that I had in
fact pointed it at him. The officer asked me for my side of it I showed him
the rake, explained to him that I felt my life was in danger. One of the
neighbors backed up my story, The police informed the nut that I was in fact
justified in my actions. the "Nut" was charged AND convicted with 2nd
degree assault. The prosecuter dropped the other charge about him coming
after me. I KNOW what my rights are in carrying a concealed weapon.
Perhaps, had the police shown up for the adventure in Seattle, maybe I
would of had trouble, But my actions ended the situation and I would do it again
in a heartbeat. I don't go around playing Mr. Vigilante, but when the
situation arises as it did twice in the past 12 or so years.......I won't be a
victim. and one of the three mentions "******, your dead" well that don't fly
to good with me. I understand your sentiments, But you were not there
to understand the situation. I don't go around hey look at me, I got a handgun.
My wife has a ccw also, thank God she has never had to brandish it up to
this point. Perhaps you could tell me why YOU carry? Is it a fashion thing or
something? I carry it for protection. It is my right to protect myself. If your
not gonna back it up, then don't carry it. buy a nice watch instead.

[Randy]

I carry a concealed weapon because of my job, I have to. As I said earlier, I pray I never have to use it and honestly would prefer not having to carry the darn thing. Its cumbersome under a jacket and hard to conceal without one. I have been in and/or witnessed several similar situations such as yours. My response was to notify the proper authorities and monitor the situation until they arrived. I can say in WV if you brandish a firearm, you will probably be arrested unless you were protecting your life with no other alternative way to escape the 'life-threatening' situation. In WV if your life is being threatened and there are two doors, you better leave through the one available, other than that, the law has no tolerance for brandishing a firearm.

With respect to the father/daughter incident, once you inserted yourself into the situation and the father yelled at you to get out of there, his attention was focused on you. I would have taken several steps away and kept his attention until law enforcement arrived, as you indicated, they were already enroute. If the father was unstable, having a stranger pull a gun on him will surely harbor increased animosity towards his daughter during thier next encounter because of a stranger threatening him with a gun. With respect to the 'gay' incident. What would you have done if the three guys also had guns, and upon seeing you were packing, pulled thier weapons and started shooting. Now we have the distinct possibility of someone being killed out of another persons 'speculation' as to what might have happened. I am sorry, but I believe you exercised very poor judgement. Your actions may have consequences to these individuals somewhere down the road. I hope these actions turn out to be positive.

[snowdog]

Dude, the guy came at me with a rake, this was in West Texas. I urge you to
look into Texas laws concerning weapons. As for the guy going after his
daughter in the future. He spent 2 months in Jail, then of course a restraining
order was placed on him for his daughters protection. This was years ago.
I didn't follow it but I know he left the state. and It should be again.... known
I had no idea the police were on there way. But well read Texas laws you
would be surprised.

As for the Seattle incident, Perhaps in the future those 3 thugs just might
have to think twice about assaulting someone. that Perhaps they may be
injured. I assesed the situation. it was approx 7:00 pm. still plenty of
people out and about, which was no matter to them. Because of the
Populace I didn't want to have to pull out a weapon and scare the innocent
bystanders. (there were approx 3-4 people standing in the immediate area
not knowing what to do). The thugs (2 of them) had the gay guy up against
the wall and was instructing him to take his clothes off. I don't know what
experiences you have in Seattle but there are "Skinheads" here. They were
skinheads. when I told them to get the hell away from the guy. they indicated
to me that there intent was to harm me. I can assure you, I have a "bit" more
experience in confrontations and in dealing with weapons then you as you
describe yourself.

LOL I guess you could say that in my job..I too carried a weapon.

Really looking forward to talking with you about Race Issues.

[snowdog]

I just noticed "the right wing alert level" on this topic....you got
to be kidding, Now its a right wing thing to protect yourself?

Thats bizzare, I go through the paperwork to carry a concealed weapon
and The crimminals pick up a 9 mm by theft, or street thugs, and commit
crimes. IF my carrying a concealed weapon for protection is RIGHT WING
then YES I will proudly say that I Am in the Right Wing crowd.

[gratelady1]

Seems to me someone lacks social trust. I never get into problems like Snowhound has found, and I am sure he was not looking for them, but (and there's always a butt), only paranoid anti-socials, go around thinking something bad is going to happen to them to the point they have to pack a weapon.

When I had to pack- I was embarassed, to think I would need such sissy-wuzz-knocker equalizer to demand respect from complete strangers.

I dont beleive it is my deameaner, but I could be wrong, on the other hand, I would not live in situations, as he describes, if you live in a neighborhood where men beat girls, what does that say about your intellect? Or lack of it? I know this sounds harsh, and the snowfleacarrier, may come after me with his big-man's pistola, but I can say this to him, NO amount of practice, teaching, learning, wishing, hoping, or trying to out-gun someone, will ever take the place of DUMB LUCK- and I rather be lucky than good! In other words for you that live in realinda- When its your time- it's your time-, aint nothing going to help!

P.S. There are techniques to take away your gun from you, whether you like it or not, and wouldnt that be a hoot to get plasted with your own protection, so my advice, if you take out your gun- dont talk- shoot, dead men cant testify against you.

[snowdog]

Gratelady1, I see your point. I had mentioned those were the 2 incidents
that my carrying of a firearm, I feel may have saved my life. I have been
confronted with situations on quite a few occasions, that I never considered
revealing a handgun. I don't quite understand the "lack of Social Trust"
comment. If people had complete social trust then why in the world would
are police officers armed? as for the danger of taking ones own firearm, Yes
training will help greatly same training as the police do. There is a point of
distance that you do not want the threat to be closer to you. Perhaps
you can inform "Randy" about Texas law concerning self Protection. as you
are from Texas.

Every situation is different in a confrontation. I am sure there are many many
times a person has pulled a weapon out when that only made the situation
worse. I know a bit about ballistics and techniques, Hell I make my own
bullets! Not to go into it too deeply, but a person that tries to take the
gun from my hand will be painfully surprised. as it is "modified". for just that
reason.

I didn't mention this in previous post but as to Randy's comment about "monitoring"
the situation until the police arrive? I wasn't about to "monitor" 2-3 guys
anally raping another guy until the police got there.

Nor was I about to "monitor" the guy beating up a teen girl until the police
had shown up.

[snowdog]

I just read the last part of your post. I lived in the Ft. Hood area not by
choice you see, I was placed there by the US ARMY. I went to the housing
office as I did not know the area at all, I asked for a list of rentals in the
area, which to be on that list they must meet the standards. Set by housing.
The area was fine other than that. It should also be noted that the guy
beating up the girl didn't even live in the neighborhood. The mother had all
ready divorced him. he didn't live there.

Umm I need to add. Could you show me an area where Men Don't beat girls
Up? from the rich to the poor. crimes are commited. Can you say
"Kennedy compound".? Why in the world would I want to come after you?
again you don't anger me. I can Quote you if you'd like but aren't you the
one wanting GWB lynched? Didn't you mention something about a 9mm?
I think you even mentioned on white house grounds. SO I ask you Gratelady,
where in the US do acts of violance NOT exist.

[granolajoe]

Truth is a constant. Why should there be QUALIFICATIONS like "It depends on the size and destructive power of your arms?" The only time you have to change "truth" is when:
1. It doesn't fit with your personal views.
2. You desire to CONTROL someone's life.
3. You believe you are like a god and others need to look up to your EVER-SO-WISE ways. (Just to name a few)

Liberals cannot comprehend total freedom because they are AFRAID, most of their lives, that if they don't control someone else's life, their's will be in jeopardy. How sad to live in such a cowardly mental state! HOW SELFISH it is to inflict your fear on someone else because you are not brave. The answer?

Trust in God and what He can do for you, otherwise stay a coward.

[gratelady1]

I just read the last part of your post. I lived in the Ft. Hood area not by
choice you see, I was placed there by the US ARMY.

I Umm I need to add. Could you show me an area where Men Don't beat girls
Up? from the rich to the poor. crimes are commited. Can you say
"Kennedy compound".? Why in the world would I want to come after you?
again you don't anger me. I can Quote you if you'd like but aren't you the
one wanting GWB lynched? Didn't you mention something about a 9mm?
I think you even mentioned on white house grounds. SO I ask you Gratelady,
where in the US do acts of violance NOT exist.

I went to Ft. Hood last weekend to see my boy, noone was beating anyone and I did not feel like I needed a gun. But that is not the issue I want to discuss, what I am concerned about is my lack of distrust for the world around me. Your post suggest I am deficient in understanding that all around me there is danger and horrors I can not phantom. I need to go find a shrink tomorrow and find out what happened to my sense of self preservation!

One place in America where you should not find violence is in your soul :rolleyes:

[snowdog]

I went to Ft. Hood last weekend to see my boy, noone was beating anyone and I did not feel like I needed a gun. But that is not the issue I want to discuss, what I am concerned about is my lack of distrust for the world around me. Your post suggest I am deficient in understanding that all around me there is danger and horrors I can not phantom. I need to go find a shrink tomorrow and find out what happened to my sense of self preservation!

One place in America where you should not find violence is in your soul :rolleyes:

:) Is that a fact?....Suggest you ask your son what happened "ON POST"
between the wife of a soldier and another soldier. Approx 3 months ago?
matter of fact, if it will help I can give you the crime statistics for that area
for the past 2 years.

and ummm May I suggest you re-read the post concerning you as "deficient
in understanding." I'm not the author.

[-V-]

Truth is a constant. Why should there be QUALIFICATIONS like "It depends on the size and destructive power of your arms?

bazookaJoe, So you are saying a lie is a lie, a weapon is a weapon period?

*Lying about getting a hummer in the Oval office is the same as lying to the taxpayers in order to send their children to fight a war for you?

*Downloading a copywrited song is as wrong as robbing a bank?

*If you are allowed to carry a knife, you should be allowed to own a missile launcher?

Truth is indeed constant. It is constantly true that there are different ramifications, implications, and justifications regarding the application of truth and justice in our society.

This application of truth includes a consideration of everyone's needs not just YOUR need to "protect YOURSELF". Did you ever consider that WE want to be protected from YOU and we don't trust you with a bazooka!

Liberals cannot comprehend total freedom because they are AFRAID... HOW SELFISH it is to inflict your fear on someone else because you are not brave.

interesting how it is just the opposite. It is fear that drives conservatives to carry weapons and invest in weapons (at the expense of things like education) and are obsessed with "terror/terrorism". By the way, wasn't it the conservative/NRA president who sent us to war precisely because he said that a weapon is not a weapon, i.e. Iraq could defend itself with weapons but if they even think about building WMD's (like the U.S. does) we can take over their country.

and Gay marriage is threatening, and non-Christian's are scary, and women with power are alarming, and foreigner's are spooky (especially the French), etc., etc.. No wonder you carry guns.

[snowdog]

"interesting how it is just the opposite. It is fear that drives conservatives to carry weapons and invest in weapons (at the expense of things like education) and are obsessed with "terror/terrorism". By the way, wasn't it the conservative/NRA president who sent us to war precisely because he said that a weapon is not a weapon, i.e. Iraq could defend itself with weapons but if they even think about building WMD's (like the U.S. does) we can take over their country."

"and Gay marriage is threatening, and non-Christian's are scary, and women with power are alarming, and foreigner's are spooky (especially the French), etc., etc.. No wonder you carry guns."

No, its not fear that drives all people to carry weapons, Its that crazy piece
of paper that gets in the news frequently called ummmm the Constitution.
a few amendments after the 2nd amendment is the results of Roe Vs Wade.

Investing in weapons played a major part in bringing down the Soviet Union.
were not the French kinda grateful when US weapons liberated them from
German control. How them Poles? Hell, did we not protect EUROPE from Soviet
expansion? was it not the French, German, English, etc. that requested the
technology of US WEAPONS to protect them during the cold war? At this time
25,000 us troops are on the S/N Korea border. Why haven't they demanded
the US leave? Is it not US Weapons that prevents China from strongarming
Thailand. I believe Thailand is pretty greatful for the US Weapons in their
struggle for independance from China.
Loved the Photo op with John Kerry and his Shotgun.

As I understood it Saddam was the one bragging about his chemical Weapons
and that He would use them should we attack. Then theres the checks he
sent to the families of those that Blew themselves and dozens of innocents
up.
and as for the obsession with Terrorism, I'll bet more than a few liberals in
NY are "obsessed" with terrorism.

[Lionhearted]

No, its not fear that drives all people to carry weapons, Its that crazy piece of paper that gets in the news frequently called ummmm the Constitution
Don't you just love it when NRA types trot out that grand old document to justify why they wish to be armed to the teeth but say nary a word about how the Patriot and Homeland Security Acts have totally shredded the same document. I have gathered an understanding that Snowjob wants things documented and I have a well researched and documented (and very long) article written by an incredible young man that I would be happy to pass along if interested.

[-V-]

No, its not fear that drives all people to carry weapons, Its that crazy piece of paper

If I may play Dr. Phil for a moment,
yes, it IS fear that drives gun owners. The paper merely allows them to react to their fear by walking around like Wyatt Earp.

You can talk regressively about the things that were accomplished with guns in the past and, while your at it, the things cavemen accomplished with clubs. But this is a new day and a progressive forum. A progressive society puts the structure and laws in place for its people to accomplish its rebellions at the polls rather than with polls.

I live in Arizona but, for the most part, we've stopped having duels in the street and we let the sheriff and the judge handle the dissagreements. And even though George W. Bush and his gang of greedy, lying, theiving, corporate crooks robbed the American people of a fair election, twice, I have faith that the American people will prevail in the next election and we will bring the criminals to justice without having to resort to a posse riding out with rifles and a long rope.

As far as resolving International disputes, that's what us liberal idealists had in mind for the U.N. until the U.S. leaders got too full of themselves to continue building it into a force for justice and opted to have an imbicilic cowboy simpleton declare to the world that, "you're either with us or against us". Now guess what... they're all AGAINST us. And our fear mongering, gun toting, bunker busting, "shock and awe" Texas swagger has turned pockets of resentment around the world into a whole lot of hate and new generations of enemies.

yeeeehaaaaaaaaa...

[gratelady1]

-V-, your gonna scare Snowmutt back into his dog house.

And BTW, my son filed for divorce from his wife about 3 months ago- At Killeen/Fort Hood- ever thought she got what she had comming?

In Texas it is still legal to kill your adultress spouse- caught in your bed with someone else, with nothing on but a grin, And even if the liberals are finally able to change that law, I dont think any (Texas) jury would convict the shooter. Thank God for the constitutional right to bare arms- Still.

[snowdog]

Don't you just love it when NRA types trot out that grand old document to justify why they wish to be armed to the teeth but say nary a word about how the Patriot and Homeland Security Acts have totally shredded the same document. I have gathered an understanding that Snowjob wants things documented and I have a well researched and documented (and very long) article written by an incredible young man that I would be happy to pass along if interested.


Ummm I of course can't speak for all on their 2nd amendment rights. but
as for being "armed to the teeth" I carry a Snub nosed .38 cal revolver
with 160 grn wadcutter bullets (made em up myself..huge meplat) where you
would feel that makes me armed to the teeth is beyond me. would love to
read the article, LOL and If I display an article that counters it?
well I think we both can guess what your responce woud be right?

Oh yea please pay a bit more attention when your reading you made a boo-boo
its SNOWDOG, not SNOWJOB, just a little clarification.

[snowdog]

"In Texas it is still legal to kill your adultress spouse- caught in your bed with someone else, with nothing on but a grin, And even if the liberals are finally able to change that law, I dont think any (Texas) jury would convict the shooter. Thank God for the constitutional right to bare arms- Still."

thank you Glady1, please convey this to "RANDY"

As for your son and his wife divorcing.....I'm not sure what bearing that
has to do with the conversation.

[gratelady1]

:) Is that a fact?....Suggest you ask your son what happened "ON POST"
between the wife of a soldier and another soldier. Approx 3 months ago?
matter of fact, if it will help I can give you the crime statistics for that area
for the past 2 years.

and ummm May I suggest you re-read the post concerning you as "deficient
in understanding." I'm not the author.

Is this your post?

"In Texas it is still legal to kill your adultress spouse- caught in your bed with someone else, with nothing on but a grin, And even if the liberals are finally able to change that law, I dont think any (Texas) jury would convict the shooter. Thank God for the constitutional right to bare arms- Still."

thank you Glady1, please convey this to "RANDY"

As for your son and his wife divorcing.....I'm not sure what bearing that
has to do with the conversation.

Still dont see the relationship?

[snowdog]

[QUOTE=gratelady1]Is this your post?

"In Texas it is still legal to kill your adultress spouse- caught in your bed with someone else, with nothing on but a grin, And even if the liberals are finally able to change that law, I dont think any (Texas) jury would convict the shooter. Thank God for the constitutional right to bare arms- Still."

Ummm to answer your question, that is your post. I am quoting it.

I have no clue why YOU brought up your son and his wife divorcing.
just a tad bit more of that famous "diffused responsiblity"

But again......however you want to view it gratelady1. whatever makes
you feel better. To interject my view or opinion....You are not helping
the progressive cause out at all, If you are a good representation of it,
I think your gonna be upset with the NEXT presidential election. for all
that you claim that GWB and the republican party does and how much it
disgust you. Where are you any different?

[snowdog]

If I may play Dr. Phil for a moment,
yes, it IS fear that drives gun owners. The paper merely allows them to react to their fear by walking around like Wyatt Earp.

You can talk regressively about the things that were accomplished with guns in the past and, while your at it, the things cavemen accomplished with clubs. But this is a new day and a progressive forum. A progressive society puts the structure and laws in place for its people to accomplish its rebellions at the polls rather than with polls.

I live in Arizona but, for the most part, we've stopped having duels in the street and we let the sheriff and the judge handle the dissagreements. And even though George W. Bush and his gang of greedy, lying, theiving, corporate crooks robbed the American people of a fair election, twice, I have faith that the American people will prevail in the next election and we will bring the criminals to justice without having to resort to a posse riding out with rifles and a long rope.

As far as resolving International disputes, that's what us liberal idealists had in mind for the U.N. until the U.S. leaders got too full of themselves to continue building it into a force for justice and opted to have an imbicilic cowboy simpleton declare to the world that, "you're either with us or against us". Now guess what... they're all AGAINST us. And our fear mongering, gun toting, bunker busting, "shock and awe" Texas swagger has turned pockets of resentment around the world into a whole lot of hate and new generations of enemies.

yeeeehaaaaaaaaa...

stopped having duels in the street huh? lets see there 35 murders in Detroit
alone last week. quite recently, a young girl in a Seattle suburb was shot and
killed as the result of rival gangs shooting at each other outside the girls house.

as for the UN. didn't they The UN inquiry (NOt the US) find corruption and
cover-ups up and down the un. The French, German, and Russians (perhaps
more) was against the war in Iraq because of the behind the scenes illegal
deals made with Saddam. Hell the Germans are pissed and publicly announced
that Saddam owed them approx 8 billion dollars from an under the table oil
deals. Remember when THe US found out that Iraq had New Soviet made
scramble devices that the US feared would help Iraq to Shoot down US Planes.
that they had received them 2 years from the RUSSIANs before the war started.
(A direct violation of the terms Saddam agreeed to.) Remember that? a few
politicians here were worried. Until the pentagon reminded them that that was
considered old technology. then the incident where The Iraqi army sam site
was bombed by the US and 2 of the scramblers were found there. HE HE
that was priceless !!

and Please Educate me that there are no shootings anymore in Arizona !!

"A progressive society puts the structure and laws in place for its people to accomplish its rebellions at the polls rather than with polls."

Yea, and then the villian hires a lawyer after he blows the head of another
person and your with progressive society structure, the guy gets off with the
ol "the twinkie I had eaten made me do it"

[snowdog]

the second part of the second Amendment says that the right to bear
arms belongs to "the people". It should be pointed out that the phrase
"the people" also appears in the first, Fourth, and Ninth Amendments.
These rights belong to INDIVIDUALS.....NOT STATES
More and more constitutional scholors have been afffirming some sort of
an individual right to bear arms.

I should also point out that the US Supreme court did declare that the
"Brady handgun Violance Prevention act was in fact UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

[-V-]

snow, to quote someone it is best to either:

Click the "quote" button within their post then delete everything but the line/s you want to comment on
OR
copy and paste the line/s from their post into a reply then select their text and click the quote icon (to the right of the U icon at the top of the message editing window).

Also for readability sake please try to stay on one topic. I haven't been able to coral greatlady in, now with the both of you at it I can only skim over posts.

For example, you're going into to much detail regarding justifications for Iraq which is extensively covered in our long standing Iraq thread (besides you could list 100 reasons why Saddham was bad but not one that justifies the U.S. unilaterally attempting to murder him, invade his country, and use weapons of mass explosion to destroy buildings and kill thousands of civilians. Again, a job for the world community to police).

If I'm wrong about your posts losing focus, it is because, as I said, I only scanned over the long ones (like most people).

[snowdog]

Point taken -V-. I will heed that advise in future postings.

thank you.

[gratelady1]

Why Rednecks Can't Be Paramedics or own guns!



A couple of rednecks are out in the Tennessee woods hunting when Bubba
suddenly grabs his chest and falls to the ground.



He doesn't seem to be breathing; his eyes are rolled back in his head.



Billy Bob whips out his cell phone and calls 911 He gasps to the
operator, "I think Bubba is dead! What should I do?"



The operator, in a calm soothing voice says, "Just take it easy and
follow my instructions.



First, let's make sure he's dead."



There is a silence.......and then a shot is heard.



Billy Bob's voice comes back on the line,



"Okay, now what???

[snowdog]

There are some who might find that offensive. I got a kick outta it but
that kinda stuff brings down Republicans, and Democrates.

[gratelady1]

There are some who might find that offensive. I got a kick outta it but
that kinda stuff brings down Republicans, and Democrates.


I am sorry but could you please clarify "brings down"- thank you.

I posted the joke, sent to me originally from my brother in London, who is with a fellow Texan- who shared it with him.

The purpose was to illustrate how regurgitating prestated improper material is just as bad as forming it yourself.

If you dont know what I mean let me direct you to Bill Bennet's Latest SNAFU! regarding anti-racist- racist beliefs. I post this article found on the "Fow.com" website, because repubs and GWB lovers will believe it, if it comes from Fox news.
http://www.newshounds.us/2005/10/01/hannity_colmes_does_damage_control_for_bill_bennet t.php

This article supports first and foremost that Bennet actually "puked", "regurgitated", "reverberated", his pre-perceived belief, that something like this was possible, but as long as he believes he can add a disclaimer at the end of his "quote", he is free of any prejudice himself or racist views.

Bill Bennet's biggest problem, is that he believed he could do like other talk-show host, and quote other peoples' opinions and think people are not going to hold you accountable for "promoting" said material, which is what they are doing- they are repeating these views- in a hope to keep them alive, but trying to disclaim reponsibilty for like I said- "Puking" what they apprently already swallowed.

Do you think it would be appropriate to place Bill Bennet in the "Pendeho" catagory? :D

[Lionhearted]

I suppose that I should preface this post by stating that although I feel that there are waaaaaaaaay too many morons in this country who legally own guns, I personally have nothing against gun ownership per se, though I own no guns myself.
However, the state of Florida has passed House 0249 relating to the protection of persons and use of force in doing so, aka the "Stand Your Ground" Law.

The legislative gobbledeegook may be found here (http://www.flsenate.gov/session/index.cfm?Mode=Bills&Submenu=1&BI_Mode=ViewBillInfo&Billnum=0249&Year=2005)

An easier to understand explanation of the law and what makes it so potentially dangerous may be found here (http://writ.news.findlaw.com/sebok/20050502.html)

Yee haww y'all!

[snowdog]

"I suppose that I should preface this post by stating that although I feel that there are waaaaaaaaay too many morons in this country who legally own guns, I personally have nothing against gun ownership per se, though I own no guns myself.
However, the state of Florida has passed House 0249 relating to the protection of persons and use of force in doing so, aka the "Stand Your Ground" Law."


Lionharted, I couln't agree with your more. I agree that there are a very
large amount of people that shouldn't own firearms period. I was on a
popular gun forum and took a beating from everyone. "its their second
amentment right" blah blah blah. It was pretty interesting. I argued my
point but it was pointless. I mentioned just because a guy can pass a
background check is a bit ludicrist. as keeping a loaded 357 in his house
with 3 kids is insane. If that man doesn't understand it. He shouldn't own
a firearm. That flew over about like a Led Zepplin

[snowdog]

"I am sorry but could you please clarify "brings down"- thank you.

I posted the joke, sent to me originally from my brother in London, who is with a fellow Texan- who shared it with him.

The purpose was to illustrate how regurgitating prestated improper material is just as bad as forming it yourself.

If you dont know what I mean let me direct you to Bill Bennet's Latest SNAFU! regarding anti-racist- racist beliefs. I post this article found on the "Fow.com" website, because repubs and GWB lovers will believe it, if it comes from Fox news."


well, I was commenting on the "redneck joke". at the time you mentioned
nothing concerning Bill Bennett. Like I said, I felt it was kinda funny
but Like Mr. Bennett there have been other Republicans and democrates (BYRD)
Who said some flat-out STUPID things. some got nailed, some (Byrd) got
overlooked.

[gratelady1]

"I am sorry but could you please clarify "brings down"- thank you.

I posted the joke, sent to me originally from my brother in London, who is with a fellow Texan- who shared it with him.

The purpose was to illustrate how regurgitating prestated improper material is just as bad as forming it yourself.

If you dont know what I mean let me direct you to Bill Bennet's Latest SNAFU! regarding anti-racist- racist beliefs. I post this article found on the "Fow.com" website, because repubs and GWB lovers will believe it, if it comes from Fox news."


well, I was commenting on the "redneck joke". at the time you mentioned
nothing concerning Bill Bennett. Like I said, I felt it was kinda funny
but Like Mr. Bennett there have been other Republicans and democrates (BYRD)
Who said some flat-out STUPID things. some got nailed, some (Byrd) got
overlooked.
So what's wrong with "bringing down" all idiots in power?

[snowdog]

So what's wrong with "bringing down" all idiots in power?


Well, ummm, there is nothing wrong with "bringing down", "all idiots in
power". thats why I said it.

[DHard3006]

The right to protect yourself does not mean you can have your own personal WMD or bazooka.
What did the flu do back around 1920s? Would that be considered a WMD? This is just a current catch phrase used to push banning of the right to bear arms.
Aren't automatic weapons capable of mass destruction?
There are very few crimes with legally owned “automatic weapons”. In fact there is only one recorded use of a legal “automatic weapon” since 1934 when the NFA was passed.
Can't a citizen protect their home with a rifle?
The 2nd amend gives one reason and only one to bear arms. It is your right to do so.
Sure most of us support bans on automatic weapons (which this administration has thus far failed to renew) but to equate regulation with prohibition and running it up the second amendment flagpole is pure bunk!
The gun haters thought because of online polls that people wanted gun control laws. The leftist lost the last election because of this misguided belief. Apparently people that take online polls do not vote.
Well the gun haters got the ole AWB passed and it banned 19 guns. Now the gun haters like to use this Miller case to defend their gun bans. The funny thing is the Miller case said if a firearm has a militia use it is protected. These 19 firearms clearly have a militia use. More proof that gun haters just want to ban the right to bear arms.

[Adolph]

Take it from me, gun control works. :o

[gratelady1]

Take it from me, gun control works. :o

It sure does, the more control you have over your gun, the more dead the one at the end of your sites is-> break into bugs bunny comedy theme-> That's all folks!!!

[snowdog]

It sure does, the more control you have over your gun, the more dead the one at the end of your sites is-> break into bugs bunny comedy theme-> That's all folks!!!

well all I know about gun control is MONDAY Morn I controlled my rifle enough to
shoot a soon to be tasty forkhorn. God Bless the .300 Savage !

[cafengocmy]

"The right to protect yourself does not mean you can have your own personal WMD or bazooka."
Are these devices not classified as "arms?" What restrictions does the 2nd place on these arms? According to the wording there is no governmental right to burden the possession of any sort of weapons/arms. The primary constitutional restriction on possession of arms would be cost. Last time I priced an F-16 I decided I probably didn't need one.

[NeoCon Newbie]

Take it from me, gun control works. :o
Gun control doesn't work because if all the good people give up there guns then only criminals will have them and then no good citizen can defend themselves.

Gun control means using both hands.

[cat's meow]

Hey numbnut, go through what the stari decisis law we have in place from Supreme Court decisions and get back to me. They get to tell you what 'the right to bare arms' means, you don't determine that.

[NeoCon Newbie]

Guns dont kill people people kill people

[-V-]

and

bazookas don't kill people, people kill people

and

anthrax doesn't kill people, people kill people

and

WMD's don't kill people, people kill people

[Jane of Arc]

Frankly I feel it's my right to 'bare' arms. Especially in the summer I like the feeling of having my arms exposed, otherwise I get way too hot. Bare arms and legs are much more comfortable. And if I offend anyone, well too bad! I feel it's my right!

Oh, sorry. This thread is about the right to 'bear' arms. Duh ... silly me. :sunny:

[-V-]

I believe everyone has the right to bear claws at Duncan donuts but as a Peta advocate I believe the only one that has the right to bear arms is the bear itself.

ooops. I also forgot this was about weapons.

... nevermind

[NeoCon Newbie]

http://logo.cafepress.com/6/356074.540536.gif

[Mr. Anderson]

I actually believe ideas and unchecked emotions kill people. Hate kills people. Ignorance kills people. Racism kills people. Biogtry kills people. Hopelessness kills people.

People are more than their bodies. People are primarily spirits. They just inhabit a body for a while.

So democrats_suck ... your previous name (that you have the responsibility of giving yourself) evokes something very low ... it shows anger, hatred, intolerance and ignorance. You, my friend, contribute to the grand energy scheme that kills people. Stop it. Grow up and start to see that people different than you have value.

[-V-]

"if guns kill people, spoons make Michael Moore fat"

and a teddy bear can be deadly if you press it against a child's face for 3 minutes but that's not what it is designed for.

Though, large quantities of food over a long period of time make Michael Moore and Rush Limbaugh fat but neither one needs to use a spoon, or a fork, for that matter. Spoons are sold to assist in providing us with nutrition and much pleasure.

Your analogy would only be applicable if the only purpose a spoon served was to feed another person poison and thousands of children died every year due to "spooning" accidents, in which case they should be banned. Understand?

I'll get to your baseball tax refund analogy next...
http://progressivesonline.com/showthread.php?p=9798#post9798

[-V-]

I like your reply better than mine, Mr. A!

[cat's meow]

Guns dont kill people people kill people

Numbnut...try actually doing some reading about how the second amendment is REALLY interpreted. You never answered my post except with some mass Ad Hominem bull-s**t

READ!!!

United States v. Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Miller)

[NeoCon Newbie]

What the hell does Anthrax have to do with gun control. If you are going to try to prove me wrong atleast talk about something relavant to gun control.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Are you really incapable of analogizing? Your hostility is not welcome.

[-V-]

it's ok, Jen. It sounds like he's a newbie to forums (and to an extent, this world). Maybe we can help.

DR, gun control is really about what kind of "arms" American's have the right to bare -- where the line is drawn -- rifles, hand guns, machine guns, bazookas, etc.. Don't get hung up on the anthrax. Focus on the concept.

Read the other thread on this topic, where at least the case for the right to own guns is fully articulated and debated and let me know if you still have questions
http://progressivesonline.com/showthread.php?t=327

[NeoCon Newbie]

Well if you can blame guns on killing people then I can blame misspelled words on my pencil.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Elsewhere on in this forum I said I am not in favor of gun control for qualified people. Criminals should not have access. People with mental illness should not have access. The issue of gun control is not a yes or no question.

[cat's meow]

Well if you can blame guns on killing people then I can blame misspelled words on my pencil.

You are truly incapable of reading aren't you?

[-V-]

OK, newbie, if you can't come up to my level, I'll come down to yours. Regarding all those shooting accidents you may have heard about:

Guns don't kill children, children kill children.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Though I have never owned a gun, I do not support gun control except 1) violent criminals should be prohibited from owning guns, 2) people who are mentally ill should be prohibited from owning guns, 3) people who are mentally retarded such that they do not know right from wrong and are incapable of of being responsible should be prohibited from owning guns, and there may be other categories of people too who should be prohibited from owning guns for good reason as well. It would be more than a little difficult for me to stand by while an innocent, or innocent victims was/were in imminant danger of dying at the hands of another. Bhudists believe that the taking of a life is justified when that life taking is in defense of an innocent who would otherwise die at the hands of an intent perpetrator and there is no other way to preserve the life of the innocent.

Guns I would buy for defense are a 1911 45 calibre pistol (Kimber is very well made, though expensive. Many other gun makers produce a model 1911), Mossberg 500 HS (Home Security) .410 short stock, thick recoil pad shotgun for smaller-framed shooters and the Smith & Wesson Lady Smith 3913LS 9 milimeter pistol.

For those who would hunt for food and survival, I would recommend the best rifle ever produced for that purpose, the Winchester 70 pre 1964 in my opinion. Expect to pay over $1,000.00 for it if you do find one and maybe very much more than that.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Guns today have laser light attachment holes drilled in them, and laser lights are able to be bought as an accessory. In the case of the Mossberg 500 .410 shotgun, it has a pump action, the noise of the pump action loading the round alone being perhaps enough to get an intruder on the fly, AND there is a laser light attachment accessory available for it too that makes it an observably high profile weapon to an intruder. The laser light on a gun is for accurate targeting as the gun that has one on it will hit near the area that the laser light is hitting on when the trigger is pulled. The Mossberg 500 .410 shotgun is very effective as a home security weapon and is specifically made for that purpose, but it is not effective for bird hunting. For bird hunting, a 12 or 20 gage shotgun would need to be purchased separately.

Anyone who purchases a gun, should, and I say MUST, take shooting lessons at a firing range. The class must cover the applicable state law. In California, a gun course is required for a hunting license. In California AND in violation of law, a conceal carry weapons (CCW) permit is next to impossible to get UNLESS you are a political contributor to the local county sheriff's political campaign fund with contributions of $350.00 to $21,000.00 having been made. That fact was brought out during discovery in an actual legal case brought against Sheriff Rupf of Contra Costa County, the county where I live, when plaintiff's attorney looked into who in Contra Costa County had been issued CCW permits by the Contra Costa County Sheriff's Department.

Getting pressed and before discovery and trial, Sheriff Rupf issued a letter to plaintiff stating the following requirements for a CCW Permit:

1) A need (Subjective and that does not consider "future need")

2) A psychiatric examination (Yes, a very good thing!)

3) A $1,000,000.00 liability insurance policy (Not at all a good thing as people with money are able to obtain CCW permits while poor people are not able to obtain CCW permits

4) Applicant to "prove" to the Sheriff's Rangemaster that he or she is proficient with the weapon (thereby, failure of the CCW Permit applicant by the Sheriff's Rangemaster to result in CCW Permit denial)

[Wafflepudding]

Hoorray for T-shirts!

OH sorry, you meant "bear arms", cool! furry clawed arms for everyone!

It is my right to bear arms, and arm bears, and everything in between. In fact, this would help the environment! think about it! Bears with 20mm autocannons would even the odds during hunting season! It's not a sport until you're maimed by HEFrag rounds! :p

Seriously now, I think the current laws are not working properly. We should have a licensing arrangement (for ownership, not just concealed carry), like drivers licenses. No gun or ammo sales without a license, and being caught in possesion of a firearm without a license would be a crime. Licenses should only be issued after a series of tests to determine if the person is capable of using his or her firearm responsably (mental, visual, etc) and extensive background checks.

To people who are not satisfied and want to ban guns altogether, well, sorry but a democracy isn't a tyranny by the majority (IF you were a majority, which I don't think you are). You don't get to take something away from me because you THINK I might make improper use of it until AFTER I have actually done so, and I'm not planning to kill on a whim anytime soon. I'm all for gun control that keeps guns away from criminals, the mentally ill or the incompetent, but law-abiding citizens have a RIGHT to own firearms.