[-V-]

Consider these 3 items in today's news:

1. With a clear majority of American's believing Iraq was a mistake, the GOP blocked a proposal to set any timeline for withdrawing our sons and daughters from harms way.

2. Now that 9/11 doesn't get the political mileage it used to, the Republican led Congress decided to take back $125 million in Sept. 11 aid that was set aside to treat sick and injured police and firefighters who worked ground zero.

3. CNN reported on a poll that showed that most Americans oppose using torture, even on terrorists. Men oppose it. Women oppose it 2 to 1. But Republicans favor it.

This invites the question,
Do Republican Leaders Have Souls?

In the past, conservatives have been fond of asking that question themselves. During a Church council in the Middle Ages a vote was taken on whether women and animals have souls. Animals lost. Women squeaked by.

Beware of he who doth protest too loudly!

[snowdog]

Are you referring to the kind of SOUL Bill Clinton left on Monica Lewinsky's
black dress?

Do ya think Sandy Burglar has SOUL when he stuffs top secret documents
down his pants? then "Loses" them?

What kind of soul do the Dems have when they were real quick to jump on the
Saddam issue in on public record, they have time and time again said that they
felt that Saddam had weapons of Mass distruction, and that he was a threat.
and now because GWB is doing something about it, Now lets just forget what
the Dems said over and over and over. Cause GWB did something about it, lets
go after him. How pathetic can the Democratic get? Dare I ask.

[-V-]

Bill Clinton has more SOUL than he can CONTROL!

but screw him, Sandy Burger, or anyone who thought Saddham had WMD's. It's not a balancing game of forgiving one Republican for every Democrat who sinned. Arrest them all if they are guilty of crimes.

That's like Bush being pulled over for DWI and telling the cop, "yea but Clinton got a BJ in the Oval Office". Besides, Clinton was indeed up for impeachment when he had the job (pun intended). Now W's behind the wheel and his offense cost thousands of lives and billions of dollars and WE AIN'T RIPPING UP THE TICKET so stop your whinning!!!!!!

[Jane of Arc]

Dear -V-~

Your thread should be discussed thoroughly in this progressive forum because it's a question all of us on the left ask ourselves as we shake our heads in sad amazement at the blatant cruelty and greed of many on the "right".

Do Republicans have souls?

Assuming there is a grand, multi-dimensional, spiritual scheme we all partake in ... and there's a 50%/50% chance it exists ... I see it as a big school we all attend until we pass. Assuming that a "spirit" is a transcendent energy beyond and outside the range of physical human experience, it continues past death.

In that framework, people who choose war over peaceful solutions are equivalent to cosmic pre-schoolers. People who choose to only help themselves, romanticizing it as "responsible individualism", are cosmic second-graders.


Yes, Republicans have souls ... but they are spiritual toddlers we have to help along.

But this is only skimming the surface of the debate. Is there such a thing as an "evil spirit'? Or non-human spiritual intervention? Could there be Daconian Reptiles among us?

[-V-]

That is a feasable theory, What?

The Republican soul could be like Bill Murray's in "Ground Hog's Day". Destined to repeat the mistakes of history. Their spirit and the world it lives in will not see a new dawn until they learn humility, sacrifice, and genuine concern for their fellow man.

A psychologist might say the Republican soul is "analy fixated".

During early childhood development their spiritual growth may have been stunted by troublesome bowel movements. Perhaps forced to wait for another child to get off the potty, angering or embarrasing themselves when they crapped their pants. As an adult they continue to hourd things (potty substitutes) but they will forever walk this earth cranky, with a spiritual "load in their pants" until they learn to share, thereby flushing the shit out of their system. (hence my speculation in the above poll that there may be human excrement where their soul should be).

If you know a Republican share these theories with them. They may resist on the surface but subconciously it my be theraputic for their soul :)

[Jane of Arc]

Interesting theory -V-.

Another psychological consideration could be a Freudian perspective.

Freud might say Republicans have penis envy and fear of castration.

Just about every Republican male I know values "being tough", "being top dog", shouting people down in discussion ... Rush Limbaugh and Chuck Scarborough could be poster boys. They value money, status and power. They see the Democrats as weak, tree-hugging 'whiners'.

Freud would maintain that this need to dominate and win at all cost comes from an inferiority complex based on some fear of sexual inadequacy or fear of castration.

And have you ever met a staunch Republican woman that wasn't a viper? Penis envy. They want one. They don't have one and they're pissed. Look at Ann Coulter. I rest my case.

[gratelady1]

I am living proof Republicans have souls- I am a Republican and I am most conservatives worst nightmare- I dare dissent against GWB!

Yes there does exist a republican, that does not live and die by GWB's every screwup!

I believe someday we will take back the party, from the Fascist and Nazis and there will be peace on Earth and we will pass laws- that when one night 190 million dollars go missing from one entity and 190 million dollars show up the next morn in someone's record breaking campaign fund- then we will actually demand to investigate it, not just tell thousands of folks they have to go back out and work to replace thier 401ks. Not o mention pay Saudis to fly into the towers and then attack innocent countries, then argue forever about it, then blow up a shuttle, anything to keep attention off the intitial crime of swindling millions then Cheney swindling billions!

Yes, I have a soul, as do many Republicans, we just have to do better job of joining those souls to fight the evil that has corrupted this party yet again.

[JamesP]

I think the question-V-asks: "Do republicans have souls?" is quite serious in one sense.

The central characterisitics of the Republican "soul":
- rampant greed,
- rabid self-interest,
- tribalism,
- fear of all that is different,
- the need to dominate,
- a propensity for & acceptance of violence, particularly against the weak,
- an irrational ability to justify their actions beyond logic, compassion & morality
are the primary elements that have increased the suffering of humanity throughout history.

The Republican soul flirts perpetually with darkness, is intentionally blind to it's nature & calls itself the light. It knows only self, cares only for what it knows and can not be persuaded otherwise.

There is reason to fear, loathe and resist it.

[Jane of Arc]

Does anyone else ever think this? Broadly speaking, Republicans are very cold, bellicose, tend to hoard and not give, uncompassionate, etc.. Generally, they lack the ability to sympathize or empathize. And they operate on fear and other primordial reflexes. The liberals here know EXACTLY what I mean. And the conservatives here think I'm being insulting, but I really don't mean to insult, but to reflect on a phenomenon.

Could Republicans be REPTILES?

Seriously. The left and the right are SO different. What if ... they just have slightly different DNA that makes them so cold? Like Reptiles they do have certain positive attributes ... they are very adaptable ... they can change their skin ... they are strong and durable ... and organized.

Any thoughts?

:)

[JamesP]

Again, like -V-, in his frivolity, What has hit upon something serious.

The difference between Bush-supporting Republicans and those that find the Bush administration thoroughly despicable is DNA based; genetic.

It is no accident that the letters R E P begin the words reptile, republican, reprehensible and repugnant.

I, personally, have "cleansed" my social circle of reptilian creatures and I find my quality of life has vastly improved.

The answer to Rodney King's question may be a resounding: NO.

[gratelady1]

The problem, with the premise of needing a soul- is that, lets say your a Dem or Lib, or libretarian- or any manner of non-reptilian ceature- if your meer exisitence in any way helps centralize the power of the Repubs- are you not even more of a LIABILITY than the Reps?

In other words, if you suffer a snake in your environment, why do you get shocked and awed when he bites you? Nixon should have tought everyone a lesson in politics- as well as every President since him- remember the sum total of the status-quo is the two-party system- relying off each others' "liabilities" (why snowdog always goes and defends Bush by pointing out Clinton's follies).

[Jane of Arc]

Could it be the DNA?

I would be very interested in a genetic study comparing the DNA of 1,000 right-wing, goosestepping, flag-waving, warmongering, nationalistic Nazi types to the DNA of 1,000 left-wing, partying, flag-burning, war protesting, free spirited Dove types.

And additional research comparing the 2 group's brains would complete the study. What part of the brain does each group use more? I would bet my house that there is more brain activity in the cerebellum of right-wingers and more brain activity in the cerebral cortex of left-wingers. It would explain so much.

It would explain the cold blooded people ... with more reptilian ancestry VS. the warm blooded people ... with more mammallian ancestry.

JamesP ~ I still have some Republican friends. Not all are reptiles. AND ... guess what ... reptiles are adaptable survivors much more so than mammals. They figured out a long time ago that they had to be on both sides of the aisle in Congress to maintain power. Lizards are easy to spot ... it's in their cold, slow-blinking eyes. ;)

[littlebigman]

i thin itz just the wrong question...
the question never iz or can b does 1 hav a soul,
b u dem or repub or green or mr. cleal stronger than dirt, the only question really iz WHO OWNS UR SOUL...
Some people say a man is made outta mud
A poor man's made outta muscle and blood
Muscle and blood and skin and bones
A mind that's a-weak and a back that's strong

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

I was born one mornin' when the sun didn't shine
I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine
I loaded sixteen tons of number nine coal
And the straw boss said "Well, a-bless my soul"

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

I was born one mornin', it was drizzlin' rain
Fightin' and trouble are my middle name
I was raised in the canebrake by an ol' mama lion
Cain't no-a high-toned woman make me walk the line

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

If you see me comin', better step aside
A lotta men didn't, a lotta men died
One fist of iron, the other of steel
If the right one don't a-get you
Then the left one will

You load sixteen tons, what do you get
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store


:eek: sd dont piss all ova yosef wit da plagerpee until u thin of good ol tennessee :D :rolleyes:

[Jane of Arc]

Back to the question ... do Republicans have souls?


I often wonder why Republicans simply don't care that 100,000 Iraqi civilians - half of them women and children - have died in Iraq since the invasion, mostly as a result of airstrikes by US forces. And that's not even counting the thousands we killed in Afghanistan.

When you bring it up they change the subject ... "ah what about the Twin Towers" (Iraqi people had nothing to do with that) ... "ah what about the Cole!" (Iraqi people had nothing to do with that) ... "ah what about Saddam, he killed and tortured his own people!" (not like this he didn't) "ah what about the troops ... don't you care they're being killed by insurgents!" (?) And then there's the "ahhh ... of course I care but that's the cost of freedom!"

No that's the cost of an imperial, amoral, illegal war by a group of NeoCon thugs and their supporters.

I lie awake at night and think of these poor people and I think of the poor soldiers and I say for what George Bush? For what!

And the Republicans just don't seem to care. They simply don't seem to care.

Is that not having a soul?

[JamesP]

A Republican ex-friend of mine captured the philosophy at the core of the Republican soul crudely, but succinctly many years ago. His favorite expression was simply:

"Hooray for me and f**k you"

It's the thread that runs through their every action and impulse.

I share your sorrow and sense of tragedy regarding Iraq, both for the Iraqis and for us. We've killed and burned and maimed thousands of innocents in an illegal & immoral war. We've turned many fine young Americans into killers and caused 2000 of them to be killed (and it's not over yet). And by not rejecting the Bush administration in the last election, we Americans have all become war criminals.

[Jane of Arc]

Exactly JamesP, exactly. I think we are finally getting to the point of the -V-'s thread.

It's the disbelief we feel on the left. You know what ... I'm canning the word "left" for right now. I don't feel like I'm on the left or right of anything. It's a clever trick the Neocons have used to keep the American people at each other's throats. "Either you're against us or you're with us!"

It's the disbelief we feel on the human side.

I have friends exactly like your "hooray for me & f*ck you" friend. I've actually had many say "we should just drainage the swamp ... nuke 'em all". And they mean it. They really mean it. And my disconnect strengthens.

I walk around with this disbelief everyday living in this new fascism. I am surrounded by nationalistic, pugalistic citizens I don't even recognize anymore. I am sure this is how many German citizens felt watching the rise of Hitler.

With our fixed elections they can keep the agenda going with more Neocons in office from both parties. May need to have a Democrat Neocon for a while to keep the illusion of democracy going.

Never thought I'd see days like these. Strange days indeed.

[JamesP]

Yes. Strange and sad times.

But there are promising signs that we may once again get back to a time when America is both great & good.

The tide is turning.

[Jane of Arc]

Yes. Strange and sad times.

But there are promising signs that we may once again get back to a time when America is both great & good.

The tide is turning.


JamesP ~ when you say "promising signs" would you do me a favor and listen to something on a thread I posted? Go to the thread here : ~ A Question on Oil for Thinking People to Debate~. I would love to have an intelligent brain like yours get involved with the discussion on "peak oil". I am finding that once you begin to understand the peak oil crisis ... all the pieces of the puzzle start fitting together.

Here's the link on the thread I want you to hear: (Scroll to the bottom and click on "Listen Now". It's 34 min. so get comfortable and grab a cup of coffee, tea or vodka.)

http://globalpublicmedia.com/interviews/615

[Jane of Arc]

U.N. inspectors made clear there was no wmd's and no threat well b4 the dems voted 2 help the dik n the bush 2 kill and conquer...dems voted 4 kill'n depsite the FACT that they knew the truth...then they say...'hey we didnt know bcuz ur cia tenent told us there was 200 not acounted 4'...while dems knew the U.N. inspectors had acounted 4 every single weapon n question...dems r souless at least as much as repubs... I completely agree with you LBM. I knew the war was wrong from the beginning. Why didn't they? I got swept up in the 2004 election and became a Democrat ... hoping that maybe Kerry would do the right thing if given the chance like he did when he came back from Viet Nam. But, right after the election when Kerry betrayed every American who voted for him and didn't use the 50 MILLION DOLLARS he collected for legal fees to make sure "EVERY VOTE COUNTED", I stopped being a Democrat and became a person without a party.

u r very wrong on dis 1 what?... im afraid if u pay ur taxes 2 this gov u 2 hav sold ur sole...do u work 4 capitalism..? if yes then u also hav sold ur sole...You're wrong LBM. I spend most of my life fightin' the good fight! I haven't sold my soul to anyone. You're being self-righteous and arrogant LBM ... careful with that stuff.
the entire system iz failed and must b rebuilt from the bottom up and the top down...and unless u hav abandon ur suport of the current system u r nearly soulless...I agree with you LBM. I'm ready for the revolution.

if u say 'i work within the system 2 b paid while i try 2 change it from there' u r not only a fool who has sold ur soul, but u will alwayz only add up 2 part of the cancer.
gooday souless american taxpay'n capitalist canser suport'n god kill'n child starv'n slavery promote'n slaves..!!!
:rolleyes: :(Whoa ... that's harsh!!! And here's where you couldn't be more wrong and unjustified to say those things to me, LBM. You are personally attacking me and MY SOUL, while criticizing me for pondering if Republicans have souls. My questions are general, not personal. I'm actually too kind of a person to be as cruel as you just were to me. Here's further irony ... I know you're a good guy and mean well. I also know you don't 'get' the mostly tongue-in-cheek nature of the question -V- posed, "Do Republicans have Souls?" Ligthen up. It's all good in the end.

[Jane of Arc]

so howz about just face up that u what? r just as guilty and soulstarved as the rest until we liv as nature intended and all hav food shelter and luv and peace, not just the sum of those who depend on so many hav'n no heritage so that they can hav greed and power grown from the money root of cancer...
say what? u will , but if u cant do a better response then that u will perrish like so many others soon n a distruction of ur own making...
sory ur so ofended by reality...
(1) I'm not offended by reality.
(2) You have no idea who I am.
(3) No. I am NOT "as guilty and soulstarved" as NeoCon Republicans who bombed an unarmed nation killing 100,000 innocent women, children and men and who are responsible for thousands of dead and forever wounded American men and women. So if people ask, "do these Republicans have souls?" It's a damn valid question. These are scary entities that may just NOT have souls.
(4) Money isn't the "root or cancer" on this planet. Fear is. Fear is the opposite of love.
(5) What I believe in is love. It's the only way out of this mess. And that means we have to start taking care of each other.
(6) Direct your anger someplace constructive. I'm one of the good ones. I won't even kill a fly. I save animals. I help out homeless people bringing them food and blankets and friendship. Everybody I meet eventually becomes my friend.

Love LBM, love.

[Jane of Arc]

Let me add to my post below ... I know what you're trying to say LBM. We are all responsible for the state of the world. I agree. We have all "sinned". We are all theives, murders and liars. I have lied. I have stolen. I have stepped on a bug (by accident), so I'm a killer.

BUT LBM ... there's a difference!

I'm a vegetarian that saves a bug if it comes into my house. I loathe the senseless taking of life so much. Compare that to a man who sat in the White House and knowingly gave the order to bomb a country back to the friggin' Stone Age. He knew upon giving his order thousands of innocent lives would be vaporized!

LBM ~ understand the difference man!

[littlebigman]

(1) I'm not offended by reality.
(2) You have no idea who I am.
(3) No. I am NOT "as guilty and soulstarved" as NeoCon Republicans who bombed an unarmed nation killing 100,000 innocent women, children and men and who are responsible for thousands of dead and forever wounded American men and women. So if people ask, "do these Republicans have souls?" It's a damn valid question. These are scary entities that may just NOT have souls.
(4) Money isn't the "root or cancer" on this planet. Fear is. Fear is the opposite of love.
(5) What I believe in is love. It's the only way out of this mess. And that means we have to start taking care of each other.
(6) Direct your anger someplace constructive. I'm one of the good ones. I won't even kill a fly. I save animals. I help out homeless people bringing them food and blankets and friendship. Everybody I meet eventually becomes my friend.

Love LBM, love.

cheers 2 u my friend :)

and if u really stop and think about my post u will c that itz luv
that i also call 4 the most...<3~*

i just cum on strong and play a little hard 2 get, so dont fret unless u can cry it out like john jane:D



Say the word and you’ll be free,
Say the word and be like me,
Say the word I’m thinking of,
Have you heard the word is love.
It’s so fine, it’s sunshine,
It’s the word love.
In the beginning I misunderstood,
But now I’ve got it the word is good.
Say the word and you’ll be free,
Say the word and be like me,
Say the word I’m thinking of,
Have you heard the word is love.
It’s so fine, it’s sunshine,
It’s the word love.
Everywhere I go I hear it said,
In the good and the bad books that I have read.
Say the word and you’ll be free,
Say the word and be like me,
Say the word I’m thinking of,
Have you heard the word is love.
It’s so fine, it’s sunshine,
It’s the word love.
Now that I know what I feel must be right,
I mean to show ev’rybody the light,
Give the word a chance to say,
That the word is just the way,
It’s the word I’m thinking of,
And the only word is love,
It’s so fine it’s sunshine,
It’s the word love.
Say the word love,
Say the word love,
Say the word love,
Say the word love.


psst...hey jane y not go all the way baby...y not go vegan..?
luv'lbm the vegan...hehehe ;)

[robg913]

does your head hurt when you think like that?

[-V-]

a UC Berkeley sociology professor who tracked 95 toddlers to adulthood released a study this week reporting that the whiny kids turned into rigid, insecure adults who craved authority and structure--and were most likely to be conservative--while the self-reliant, trouble-free kids have become open-minded, slightly introspective, adventuresome--and liberal.

[jrw71470]

I had every oppertunity to become a right wing republican. I grew up in a fundementalist church that believed that ET was of the devil and the school system was controlled by athiestic evolutionists bent on destroying the rights of the church to shove there religion down are throuts. I even ended up in a small 'Christian' school, mind you I have a learning disablity that and every day I ended upstairs recieving corpral punishment because I struggled to get the work done. This turned me against religion. Bear with me. I was a conservitive until I was 17 and all of a sudden I suddenly began to see the suffering in the world. I wondered what gave us the right as a species to destroy the world, why people had to suffer from poverty, and, generally, I gained a sence of empathy. This sensitivity makes me feel sadness everytime I see a person maginalized or descrimnated against. I also say first hand in my life what suffering is as I am disabled myself and I have experienced that stigma and I was able to translate this into a sence of empathy for others. In other words, I gained a soul. Not everyone who has been through my cercumstances can escape the hurd mentality of the right. And as to the questian of the republicans being reptiles, I think that it is a matter of scale.

[Thelonious]

In fact the whole thing cannot be explained in terms of soul vs no soul.

In essence there are 3 types of Republican.

1. Honest conservatives who believe that the conservative way is best for the American people. These are becoming rarer. They hate G.W. They sometimes talk about taking their party back. They sometimes now claim to be 'sort of libertarian' so they don't have to be associated with Pat Robertson et al

2. Ideologues. These will toe the line no matter what. Reality will NOT phase them. If the evidence contradicts their predetermined conclusions then the evidence is 'a lot of bullcrap from that liberal rag the...(name any well respected world-renowned news outlet)'

3. The Ignorant. They just don't know. They really loved the sound of Reagan's soothing voice though. 'Too bad G.W. can't be more like him.... oh those were the days.' 'I don't know where the hell this place Ear-ack is, and hell, I don't even care, I hope old G.W. kicks their ass though. They deserve it, knockin down our towers'

These three groups are not of course mutually exclusive. Most Republicans combine a good deal of ideology with their ignorance and so on...

[MAGI]

In fact the whole thing cannot be explained in terms of soul vs no soul.

In essence there are 3 types of Republican.

1. Honest conservatives who believe that the conservative way is best for the American people. These are becoming rarer. They hate G.W. They sometimes talk about taking their party back. They sometimes now claim to be 'sort of libertarian' so they don't have to be associated with Pat Robertson et al

2. Ideologues. These will toe the line no matter what. Reality will NOT phase them. If the evidence contradicts their predetermined conclusions then the evidence is 'a lot of bullcrap from that liberal rag the...(name any well respected world-renowned news outlet)'

3. The Ignorant. They just don't know. They really loved the sound of Reagan's soothing voice though. 'Too bad G.W. can't be more like him.... oh those were the days.' 'I don't know where the hell this place Ear-ack is, and hell, I don't even care, I hope old G.W. kicks their ass though. They deserve it, knockin down our towers'

These three groups are not of course mutually exclusive. Most Republicans combine a good deal of ideology with their ignorance and so on...

Thelonius, I think there is also another type. The present leaders, the exploiters of the types you name.
The evil Greedy ones.
They selfishly care nothing about anything or anyone in this world but themselves and will do any unconscionable thing to keep the power over the gullible types you name.

[MAGI]

Thelonius, I think there is also another type. The present leaders, the exploiters of the types you name.
The evil Greedy ones.
They selfishly care nothing about anything or anyone in this world but themselves and will do any unconscionable thing to keep the power over the gullible types you name.

Too late to edit but appropriate to this conversation:

Published on Thursday, March 22, 2007 by CommonDreams.org
A Time For Anger, A Call To Action
by Bill Moyers

The following is a transcript of a speech given on February 7, 2007 at Occidental College in Los Angeles.


http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0322-24.htm

snip

"Those women in Marshall, Texas - who didn't want to pay Social Security taxes for their maids - were not bad people. They were regulars at church, their children were my friends, many of them were active in community affairs, and their husbands were pillars of the business and professional class in town. They were respectable and upstanding citizens all.

So it took me awhile to figure out what had brought on that spasm of reactionary rebellion. It came to me one day, much later. They simply couldn't see beyond their own prerogatives. Fiercely loyal to their families, to their clubs, charities, and congregations - fiercely loyal, in other words, to their own kind - they narrowly defined membership in democracy to include only people like them. The women who washed and ironed their laundry, wiped their children's bottoms, made their husbands' beds, and cooked their families meals - these women, too, would grow old and frail, sick and decrepit, lose their husbands and face the ravages of time alone, with nothing to show from their years of labor but the creases in their brow and the knots on their knuckles.

In one way or another, this is the oldest story in America: the struggle to determine whether "We, the People" is a spiritual idea embedded in a political reality - one nation, indivisible - or merely a charade masquerading as piety and manipulated by the powerful and privileged to sustain their own way of life at the expense of others.

We seem to be holding our breath today, trying to decide what kind of country we want to be. But in this state of suspension, powerful interests are making off with the booty. They remind me of the card shark in Texas who said to his competitor in the poker game: "Now play the cards fairly Reuben. I know what I dealt you."

For years now a small fraction of American households have been garnering a larger and larger concentration of wealth and income, while large corporations and financial institutions have obtained unprecedented power over who wins and who loses. Inequality in America is greater than it's been in 50 years. In 1960 the gap in terms of wealth between the top 20% and the bottom 20% was 30 fold. Today it's more than 75 fold.

Such concentrations of wealth would be far less of an issue if the rest of society were benefiting proportionally. But that is not the case. Throughout our industrial history incomes grew at 30% to 50% or more every quarter, and in the quarter century after WWII, gains reached more than 100% for all income categories. Since the late 1970s, only the top 1% of households increased their income by 100%.

Once upon a time, according to Isabel Sawhill and Sara McLanahan in The Future of Children, the American ideal of classless society was 'one in which all children have roughly equal chance of success regardless of the economic status of the family into which they were born. That's changing fast. The Economist Jeffrey Madrick writes that just a couple of decades ago, only 20% of one's future income was determined by the income of one's father. New research suggests that today 60% of a son's income is determined by the level of his father's income. In other words, children no longer have a roughly equal chance of success regardless of the economic status of the family into which they are born. Their chances of success are greatly improved if they are born on third base and their father has been tipping the umpire."

snip

[Jane of Arc]

In essence there are 3 types of Republican.

1. Honest conservatives who believe that the conservative way is best for the American people. These are becoming rarer. They hate G.W. They sometimes talk about taking their party back. They sometimes now claim to be 'sort of libertarian' so they don't have to be associated with Pat Robertson et al

2. Ideologues. These will toe the line no matter what. Reality will NOT phase them. If the evidence contradicts their predetermined conclusions then the evidence is 'a lot of bullcrap from that liberal rag the...(name any well respected world-renowned news outlet)'

3. The Ignorant. They just don't know. They really loved the sound of Reagan's soothing voice though. 'Too bad G.W. can't be more like him.... oh those were the days.' 'I don't know where the hell this place Ear-ack is, and hell, I don't even care, I hope old G.W. kicks their ass though. They deserve it, knockin down our towers'




In essence there are 3 types of Democrats:

1. The Demopublicans. They talk a good populist game. They 'say' they care for the People ... blah, blah, blah ... while wallowing shamelessly in corporate cash and passing legislation with their fellow Republicrats to support corporate welfare. In the American population they are the "liberal conservatives" who are economically conservative and socially liberal. They are the DLC types.

2. The 'Muddle' of the Road Democrats. Loyal party types. They are cautiously liberal. They support good social issues like ending the war, universal healthcare, education and keeping religion out of government. But when it comes to taking a step towards the ledge and looking into the abyss of what our government is really doing ... they shy away and stick to the safe issues.

3. The Progressives. They want change and they want it now. They're sick of the lapdog Democratic Congress and want to send them packing. They want honest elections. They want a real independent inquiry to 9-11. They want the war over immediately. They want an end to the stranglehold of so-called "free-trade". They want the US government to stop policing their citizens and the rest of the globe and get back to the business of representing the will of the People.

[JamesP]

An excellent post, Thellonious.

and an excellent point made in the post by Magi:
"They simply couldn't see beyond their own prerogatives. Fiercely loyal to their families, to their clubs, charities, and congregations - fiercely loyal, in other words, to their own kind - they narrowly defined membership in democracy to include only people like them."
My experience is that one characteristic of many "Republicans" is that they can be very good, generous and caring with respect to "their own kind" (however defined), but they are often brutally callous, cruel or outright evil with respect to "the others" (however defined).
They are truly "tribal" in nature".

Many liberals, on the other hand, often espouse great concern (at least philosophically) for others ("the bleeding crowd"), but are often not very good or "giving" in actual practice. Their philosophy serves their self-illusions, but is not evidenced in their life-style.

Any others share this experience / perspective?


In fact the whole thing cannot be explained in terms of soul vs no soul.

In essence there are 3 types of Republican.

1. Honest conservatives who believe that the conservative way is best for the American people. These are becoming rarer. They hate G.W. They sometimes talk about taking their party back. They sometimes now claim to be 'sort of libertarian' so they don't have to be associated with Pat Robertson et al

2. Ideologues. These will toe the line no matter what. Reality will NOT phase them. If the evidence contradicts their predetermined conclusions then the evidence is 'a lot of bullcrap from that liberal rag the...(name any well respected world-renowned news outlet)'

3. The Ignorant. They just don't know. They really loved the sound of Reagan's soothing voice though. 'Too bad G.W. can't be more like him.... oh those were the days.' 'I don't know where the hell this place Ear-ack is, and hell, I don't even care, I hope old G.W. kicks their ass though. They deserve it, knockin down our towers'

These three groups are not of course mutually exclusive. Most Republicans combine a good deal of ideology with their ignorance and so on...

[Jane of Arc]

Hey JamesP ~

I thought my post was excellent too! :crybaby2: (Jane's feelings hurt. Wah. Sniffle. Going to the refrigerator to eat ice cream. The wedding is off! lol)

I was just trying to point out that whenever any group labels themselves ... including me labeling myself a "progressive" ... on some level I am putting myself in a box and implying that I, and 'my group', are better than you, and 'your group'. And the second I do that ... and sadly, I catch myself doing it way too often ... I am taking part in dehumanization. In theory, I am no different than someone like Sean Hannity, who dehumanizes people for a living. (Ugh. This 'raising consciousness' stuff I've been doing is a b*tch.)

You can't stop dehumanization with dehumanization. - Jane of Arc :sunny:

[-V-]

implying that I, and 'my group', are better than you, and 'your group'.

to solve the dilemma of being a "groupy" one could reference specific "schools of thought" or "ideologies" rather than point to "progressives" or "conservatives", etc.. Thus, instead of "my group is better than yours" you could propose that this "school of thought" is better for society than the other. Carry on...

[JamesP]

Jane: You remain my undisturbed vision of "ideal woman" comprised of equal parts: mind, body and soul with eloquence added as a bonus.

to solve the dilemma of being a "groupy" one could reference specific "schools of thought" or "ideologies" rather than point to "progressives" or "conservatives", etc.. Thus, instead of "my group is better than yours" you could propose that this "school of thought" is better for society than the other. Carry on...

With all due respect to the ever-prevalent, all-knowing/all-seeing, Orwellian "eye of V", this thread is not so much about "schools of thought" as it is about the nature and "soul" of those who ascribe to the various schools.

It is this central question that fascinates and beguiles.

Do Republicans have souls?

For me, the simple answer is "no" with respect to the few remaining, hard-core, blind, heartless & mindless Bush supporters, but Republicans overall are a different and more perplexing question.

What drives otherwise "good people" to support political positions that lean so heavily toward division, aggression, violence and greed that so characterize so many Republican positions?

Are liberals mostly made up (as in the mind of many Republicans) of:
- affluent, hypocritical, pontificating self-serving wind-bags (Oprah, for example)
and/or
- un-skilled, uneducated and/or lazy freeloaders who support government largesse because they hope to be it's recipient

So many vexing questions.... so many people to try to understand.... despise or embrace..... include or exclude in our devolving America ...

One might ask in the era of Bush the question so many around the world are asking: Do Americans have souls?

[Thelonious]

...They want the US government to stop policing their citizens and the rest of the globe and get back to the business of representing the will of the People.


Jane,
I think that you would consider me a Muddle of the road democrat. I am all in favour of progress. That's for sure. But I am pragmatic enough to know that measuring "the will of the People" is a vague and tricky business. I spent seven years in Ohio during the Reagan years. In my corner of Ohio Ronnie was hugely popular. Most people I talked to there really wanted strong leadership from Ronnie to defend us against the communists, and if that meant starting wars by funding the Contras then they were all for it.
The will of the People would be a great thing if so many people weren't so darned ignorant. (I include myself in this. I do not have a complete understanding of every issue Congresspeople are expected to vote on)
Hitler was enormously popular. Was it the will of the people that he start a World War and kill all those Jews, Gypsies and Catholics?

[Thelonious]

In essence there are 3 types of Democrats:
....
2. The 'Muddle' of the Road Democrats. Loyal party types. They are cautiously liberal. They support good social issues like ending the war, universal healthcare, education and keeping religion out of government. But when it comes to taking a step towards the ledge and looking into the abyss of what our government is really doing ... they shy away and stick to the safe issues.
....

Exactly who how and where is going to "end the war" ????????
The Bush-Chenney war was easy enough to start, but NOBODY knows how to end it. The various ethnic groups in Iraq hate each other so much, and more and more every day.... The Bush-Chenney war is not going to end any time soon. Nooooooo. No way. With or without US troops this war is going to go on for a long time.
The Limbaughites have a plan to "end the war". They will beat all the militias and insurgents into submission and peace will break out all over.
The MichaelMoorites have a plan to "end the war". They will withdraw American troops and peace will break out all over.
Both plans are absurd. The Bush-Chenney war will end only after massive ethnic cleansing. With a lot of good luck and VIGOROUS diplomacy maybe the world can keep the Iranians and the Saudis from bombing the hell out of each other's oilfields.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Jane, I just LOVED your post. I guess I'll go have some ice cream with you, then, we can talk!

[Jane of Arc]

Thank you Jennifer! I KNOW you 'get' what I'm trying to say. We're on the same page ... Cosmic Soul Sister! :D


Thelonious ~ Thanks for your responses. First off, it's truly impossible to say what the true will of the German people was under Hitler because they were a people controlled by propaganda and fear. All I can say is I trust the goodness and common sense of the People when living in a democratic society with honest elections and a free, independent press. Something I don't feel we presently have in the US. I feel we are also contolled by fear and propaganda and look what's happening.

As far as the War on Iraq ~ it's wrong. Period. Regional governments who have a vested interest in a stable Iraq combined with international peace-keeping agencies should transition the US out of the region permanently. But, that's not going to happen because we have the biggest guns and we want the oil and military bases there for our world globalisation efforts.

JamesP~ You're a sweetheart ... thanks for the kind words. I have come to a new place. If you look back on many of my posts from a year ago ... I was extremely judgemental of Republicans and the political right. But, I have remembered something I knew a long time ago about dehumanization. When one dehumanizes another person or group of people through judgements, opinions and actions ... it does nothing for humanity. Humanity only rises out of the cesspool of war, destruction and dehumanization that has been our plight for milleniums though love, acceptance and understanding.

[Thelonious]

...First off, it's truly impossible to say what the true will of the German people was....

Precisely, that is exactly my point. But I will go farther. It is ALWAYS impossible to say what "the true will of the People" is. Out of 300 million Americans, large numbers will always be uniformed or misinformed or have judgment warped through ideology. Even with a perfectly free press and a perfectly fair electoral system (no humans have ever invented such a thing) we still wouldn't really know the "the true will of the People".

There will be no revolutions in the US anytime soon. Change will be slow and boring.
Look at the last 40 years. Who has been by far the most sucessful progressive in US politics in the last 40 years? Bill Clinton. Other than that we've had only 5 different flavours of Reagan-Bush-Nixon.
If someone like Clinton is elected again you should JUMP FOR JOY!! Because nothing more radical is going to happen at all.

[Michael DeM]

When one dehumanizes another person or group of people through judgements, opinions and actions ... it does nothing for humanity. Humanity only rises out of the cesspool of war, destruction and dehumanization that has been our plight for milleniums though love, acceptance and understanding.

So true.


If someone like Clinton is elected again you should JUMP FOR JOY!!

I don't think I could jump for joy if another Clinton is elected. That aside, welcome to POL, Thelonious.

[Thelonious]

Who has been by far the most sucessful progressive politician in US politics in the last 40 years?


There are many reasons to like Bill Clinton, but the one cited above really ought to be enough.

[FDRfollower]

Who has been by far the most sucessful progressive politician in US politics in the last 40 years?


Hmmm. In terms of progressive legislation that was passed and signed into law, LBJ wins. The Voting Rights Act, and Medicaid and Medicare being the most prominent. Plus, being such a strong advocate of the space program.

Too bad he got stuck with Vietnam.

[-V-]

Who has been by far the most sucessful progressive politician in US politics in the last 40 years?

There are many reasons to like Bill Clinton, but the one cited above really ought to be enough.

interesting observation -- to consider the equation that a president far to the left might encounter too much resistance to get things done, while Clinton may have been able to make substantial progress in moving the country to the left on some issues by starting from the middle.

[Jane of Arc]

I have to agree with FDR ~ it was LBJ. And if you can stretch the years just a tad ... Kennedy. Hell, Nixon was more to the left than Clinton. To call Clinton a "progressive" is well ... frankly ... CRaZy. :crazy2:

Thelonius, I get the feeling that you don't really understand the depths to which our electoral process has sunk, nor the effects of the monopolization of our media. We have entered into a new spiffy fascism, the likes of which the world and America have never seen.

[Thelonious]

Hmmm. In terms of progressive legislation that was passed and signed into law, LBJ wins. .....


Exactly, that's why I chose 40 years as my time frame. LBJ completely reframed the debate in this country. (He also won by a landslide, something no democrat has done since, and had huge coattails - Large democratic majorities in both houses - and I suspect, though I don't know enough history to say, that he did not campaign on the outrageously radical program which he later implemented)

So, since 1967, Leading democrats have been, Humphrey, McGovern, Muskie, Ted Kennedy, Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Gary Hart, Al Gore, maybe a few leading congressmen like Scoop Jackson, Tip O'Neil, bla bla bla..... NONE of them had anywhere near the success of Clinton.

[Thelonious]

...you don't really understand the depths to which our electoral process has sunk, nor the effects of the monopolization of our media. We have entered into a new spiffy fascism.....

So that is why you are holding out for the most radical progressive available ??? To me, what you say here is all the more reason to move to the center, and get a good solid practical center-left government in power. The debacle of Nader in 2000 shows me exactly why the left must be united, or we will have to live through more and more of these really tragic Wacko-Right regimes.

[Thelonious]

So, that brings me to the question of "How progressive was Bill Clinton anyway?"

And I think the answer lies in the question "In theory or in practice?"
In theory he was quite liberal, but in order to win an election he had to moderate a little bit. He was a hippie idealist. He wanted to nationalise health care. He even tried to do so.
In practice there were other "practical problems". The Gingrich Republicans won the House in 92. His hands were tied. In 92 I wrote Bill a letter saying "Veto everything those bastards send you" and Bill made a public statment saying that whereever possible he would look for compromise, because he was not elected just to veto things. (Maybe he was right to do that)
Though not as flashy as ending Jim Crow, Clinton expanded EIC, a big help to the working poor. Clinton got more cops on the street. (a program which was hugely sucessfull in reducing crime rates - which has also been defunded my G.W. with the resulting rise in crime rates)

It's really hard to judge how TRULY liberal the current batch of candidates is.... but I would be willing to bet almost anything that the next Democratic president will be no farther left than William Jefferson Clinton.

[Thelonious]

Who has been by far the most sucessful progressive politician in US politics in the last 40 years?

So it appears that since Lyndon Johnson, Bill Clinton has been the most successful, or am I wrong?

[MAGI]

Bill Clinton brought us NAFTA! He finished Reagan/Bush's work and sold out middle America. Al Franken was sorry he once thought NAFTA (any Free Trade Organizations) was good, because Clinton was so strong for it, we trusted him. Very WRONG!
I felt that way also at the time. He and his guest admitted they were duped, as I was! I wish I could remember the guest he was speaking with. You spoke of Thom Hartman. Free Trade is what brought us here; it is his main subject!

T., we're Progressives.
Why stop at 40 years? Go where it really counts, back to FDR!
Don't forget Carter!

We are on our way back to True America. We The People are more than sick of this fascist Corporatacracy!
Another Clinton.....................I sure as heck hope NOT!

How are you liking what is going forward in the U.S.A. today? A main Highway from Mexico into Canada? The people going forward with this dream of one government in America. Is that what you wish?
Do you listen to Lou Dobbs? He is talking a good deal on the subject. Don't watch TV? Check his website loudobbstonight show.

In practice there were other "practical problems". The Gingrich Republicans won the House in 92. His hands were tied. In 92 I wrote Bill a letter saying "Veto everything those bastards send you" and Bill made a public statment saying that whereever possible he would look for compromise, because he was not elected just to veto things. (Maybe he was right to do that)

Think about it T.
It's been 15 years and Billary has yet to come up with a Real Health PLAN. She's waiting to see how Edwards and others fare with theirs..............

I once believed as you........................but since our jobs have gone South and overseas and the U.S. Middle Class have fallen.............
I changed my mind!
Big time!

[ofercryinoutloud]

Are you referring to the kind of SOUL Bill Clinton left on Monica Lewinsky's
black dress?

Do ya think Sandy Burglar has SOUL when he stuffs top secret documents
down his pants? then "Loses" them?

What kind of soul do the Dems have when they were real quick to jump on the
Saddam issue in on public record, they have time and time again said that they
felt that Saddam had weapons of Mass distruction, and that he was a threat.
and now because GWB is doing something about it, Now lets just forget what
the Dems said over and over and over. Cause GWB did something about it, lets
go after him. How pathetic can the Democratic get? Dare I ask.

i am so SICK of people bitching about Bill Clinton's indisgressions when all the "upstanding" men who convicted him were doing the same damn thing. that was the WORST thing they could come up with to villify him?!?! GIMME A BREAK!!! and what the hell is GWB doing about Saddam Hussein?!?! sheeeeit. the 2 of them probably had drinks together last weekend and reminisced about 911.

how many times does it have to be said: THE WAR IN IRAQ IS NOT FOR HUMANITARIAN REASONS!!! gwb doesn't give a rat's ass about iraqis. if he was so friggin concerned about human rights, why doesn't he do something about the sudan? why didn't he do something about rwanda, or eritrea, or south africa? because there's nothing there he wants, that's why. all the natural resources have already been annexed, and everybody's sick, black, and poor.