[snowdog]

I feel perhaps like the Majority of Americans, I support our troops in Iraq
110%. I, like the Majority of Democrats and Republicans supported going
into Iraq. I, like the Majority of Americans question what the hell is going on
there now..... I want to agree with the Dems points, but its hard for me
to listen or make a decision, that leans toward the views of Dems or "progressive
Democrats" Seems first and foremost, that there is a blinding hatred that
to me takes away from the credibility of you cause. Get rid of the intense
hatred, the nasty remarks, the almost Jealous appearing antics agains this
current administration. and please give me some intelligent points. FACTS.
not some Biased Bush basher from Buzzflash, or the Al Franken show. But
Facts. Yes, I can expect a list of Facts. from -V-Man or Haus or Lionhart,
But perhaps a bit of insight. into it. You all got a message, I believe I can
agree on most of your points. Its difficult though, when many of the points
are clouded over by the BS remarks. Nazi, communist, Fasist, etc.
Maybe -V- soldier could make a permanent area on the forum for strictly
Bush Bashing. and leave it there. I can only speak for myself, perhaps my
view on the matter is a small minority among the more conservative thinking
Americans, But for me to be swayed, I really need to discuss the issues, not
the person. When I read someones point about the falicies of GWB or the
people around him, and the majority of the thread goes into name calling
I am far less likely to get the point. If one puts out facts. and even their
opinion. in a tactful manner. I will be able to understand it better. For instance,
when I read a post by say Glady1. the opening statements are usually, something to do with hitler, Communist, stupid, etc, and by that time I usually
don't read much after that because I already realize that that person's main
issue is hate, therefore, I feel their points are extreme biased. their point
to me then is Moot. Then some one like What? comes out with a few points,
lately I have noticed what? comes out much more civil and I can see that
I am not on the defensive, and I can usually relate and to be honest, AGREE
with them. Alot of typing, sorry bout that. I hope the point got across though.

[gratelady1]

The funny part is you have established that someone must not hate GWB to get your respect- very interesting...

So- if I eleminate reference to him and just say the following, would it be accepted as a fact or what....

America has sent troops to a foreign land, daily they kill hundreds, without even bothering to account or prove who it is they are killing, the premise of this killing, is to free the general populace of that land, with the hopes of making them free. But they must sit idly by and let us police thier country for them, and not take up any arms, except those we allow, and they must go after the "Insurgents", and help us- help them- secure thier country, so they can reap the rewards.

Now I ask you not to change your mind about anything- or your stance, but is the previous fact or not?

[-V-]

Snow you are certainly right that clear headed reasoning is the best way to disuss any issue and that the harder and more aggressive someone pushes their point the more defensive someone else will be. Often, though, a forum like this serves as a place to vent anger and frustration. When Clinton was in office I'm sure the conservative forums were boiling over. It goes with the territory.

But I am certain it is more than partisonship with G.W. Bush. I didn't agree with his father but I didn't have animosity towards him. Likewise with Dole or McCain if they had got in. Whatever anger is directed to this President, this President has brought upon himself.

I'd have to be deaf, dumb, and blind if I didn't rant about someone who will surely be the worst President of my lifetime (because America could never make a mistake like this again).

Fool me once shame on... me, ummm you,
... can't get fooled again! :D

(technically, America was already fooled twice but the first time he did lose the popular vote)

[snowdog]

Glady1, I don't quite understand the question, I am a bit confused as to what
that subject of the Elderely is doing in this thread. The thread is about the
bush-bashing.

[Jane of Arc]

Hey snowdog~

I appreciate your heartfelt thread.

When I first joined this room about a month or so ago, I was pretty caustic about Bush and anyone who even attempted to make a case for Bush. I'm sure you remember. :)

But then after being here a bit, I could see that you were not a "right-wing agitator in a left-wing room", but actually a good guy who's really grappling with the Bush presidency and the Iraqi War. I know it's hard for you. You voted for Bush and backed the war ... and you want to believe your commander-in-chief.

I, on the other hand, am so different from you it's silly! I'm a pacifist who was against the war from the beginning ~ a vegetarian ~ an environmentalist ~ a professional writer/artist ~ extremely pro-democracy, pro-'the people' ~ I don't give a rats ass if gays marry ~ I want religion out of our goverment ~ I want the government out of private lives ~ I want the government to work for me (the people) ~ I will protest my government ~ I will protest my president.

But, I respect you snowdog and I respect our differences. We can always learn from another person's life experience and a different perspective. But I do NOT respect George W. Bush. As a matter of fact I think he's a criminal. (I won't go into the endless reasons here.)

I will continue to speak my mind and bash Bush ... but if you notice I also bash Kerry and the Clintons and a whole bunch of Democrats who have betrayed the American people.

So maybe we're not that different at all snowdog - we're both Americans who love our country in our own style and will fight for it!

[gratelady1]

Glady1, I don't quite understand the question, I am a bit confused as to what
that subject of the Elderely is doing in this thread. The thread is about the
bush-bashing.


Let me see if I can speak "Braindead!"

You say- you dont want us to talk bad about your President, I am allowing you to answer a simple question about a simple topic which does not include any bashing or trashing of your president, (ie. I am testing if this would help you answer or respect posts)

Now!! without all the bashing and trashing- you are now saying "you are more confused" when confronted with a simple question.

This thread was started by you to demote bashing and trashing of the Pres, so on this thread I have already posed 2 questions to you specifically- which you should have been able to read- they are in English (kind of), and dont reference your Pres- so what's the problem?

I even went so far as to start a thread for Mr. Bush's critique, and this is how you respond?

[-V-]

Lady, I am sorry but snow has outpointed you here. He started an amiable thread calling for more amiable threads, you responded way off topic, called him "braindead" for questioning it, and demand that he answer your questions based on the premise that they are in "english".

You're slippin girlfriend.

[gratelady1]

Lady, I am sorry but snow has outpointed you here. He started an amiable thread calling for more amiable threads, you responded way off topic, called him "braindead" for questioning it, and demand that he answer your questions based on the premise that they are in "english".

You're slippin girlfriend.

Yes I am slippin- to expect someone to actually back up thier own premises- Here snowdog wants to control the rhetoric, and the discourse, and you obviously support his agenda, and when I try to support his agenda, and thus test it, I am reprimanded- I say shame to he that would not accept the faults of their ideals.

I dont know what "Outpointed" means- if you mean he admits he is confused, and does not understand how I can question/ test him here on this specific thread, and thus this is "Outpointing me"- Ok I can live with that.

Personally any intelligent person, can see snowman has actually achieved something I could only wish to do, he has helped this entire forum- place "that person we are not to bash/trash" off the perspective radar- and thus irrelevant, which I believe we should have done long ago, where has this idea been? He should be commended and if I had the power, I would nominate him for a Nobel Prize- is this "outpointing me"? Stupendous!!! keep outpointing me!!!!

Ok I love being outpointed- And BTW- I did not call snowdog "Braindead" it would suggest he might- at some point have had one- You and I know, I would never suggest such a thing, I merely suggested that I would try to speak "Braindead" as he has never suggested he knew any other languade than English- Thus I would have tried Spanish- or even Latin, but many others here would not have been able to understand. Hell- snowman cant even phantom a world without "that person" being trashed and included, so when I excluded "That person", snowdog lost his orientation! Thus he became confused.

Also you have to admit, he sets himself up for failure, due to the inability to see or anticipate the ramifications of his posts, much like someone else we know, his ideas blow up in his face!

[littlebigman]

I feel perhaps like the Majority of Americans, I support our troops in Iraq
110%. I, like the Majority of Democrats and Republicans supported going
into Iraq. I, like the Majority of Americans question what the hell is going on
there now..... I want to agree with the Dems points, but its hard for me
to listen or make a decision, that leans toward the views of Dems or "progressive
Democrats" Seems first and foremost, that there is a blinding hatred that
to me takes away from the credibility of you cause. Get rid of the intense
hatred, the nasty remarks, the almost Jealous appearing antics agains this
current administration. and please give me some intelligent points. FACTS.
not some Biased Bush basher from Buzzflash, or the Al Franken show. But
Facts. Yes, I can expect a list of Facts. from -V-Man or Haus or Lionhart,
But perhaps a bit of insight. into it. You all got a message, I believe I can
agree on most of your points. Its difficult though, when many of the points
are clouded over by the BS remarks. Nazi, communist, Fasist, etc.
Maybe -V- soldier could make a permanent area on the forum for strictly
Bush Bashing. and leave it there. I can only speak for myself, perhaps my
view on the matter is a small minority among the more conservative thinking
Americans, But for me to be swayed, I really need to discuss the issues, not
the person. When I read someones point about the falicies of GWB or the
people around him, and the majority of the thread goes into name calling
I am far less likely to get the point. If one puts out facts. and even their
opinion. in a tactful manner. I will be able to understand it better. For instance,
when I read a post by say Glady1. the opening statements are usually, something to do with hitler, Communist, stupid, etc, and by that time I usually
don't read much after that because I already realize that that person's main
issue is hate, therefore, I feel their points are extreme biased. their point
to me then is Moot. Then some one like What? comes out with a few points,
lately I have noticed what? comes out much more civil and I can see that
I am not on the defensive, and I can usually relate and to be honest, AGREE
with them. Alot of typing, sorry bout that. I hope the point got across though.

sd i dont blame the bush or his diks 4th branch...they r capitalists that believ n what they do and they think what they do s best 4 us all...
i blame myself and others who just want to ***** about what sum1 elses idea of a better world would b instead of make'n the 1 they think should b...
i am now on trak to make the world i think should b and i need not point fingers at bush or this admin to do it...
its easy and convieniant 2 place blame on others when 1 so readily outsources any responsibility 4 the world as it is...
i know that true peace can only cum when we stop hate'n and blame'n and start do'n...
thanx 4 the post sd :) i hope i didnt wounder 2 far off the topic :o

[Jane of Arc]

sd i dont blame the bush or his diks 4th branch...they r capitalists that believ n what they do and they think what they do s best 4 us all...
i blame myself and others who just want to ***** about what sum1 elses idea of a better world would b instead of make'n the 1 they think should b...
i am now on trak to make the world i think should b and i need not point fingers at bush or this admin to do it...
its easy and convieniant 2 place blame on others when 1 so readily outsources any responsibility 4 the world as it is...
i know that true peace can only cum when we stop hate'n and blame'n and start do'n...
thanx 4 the post sd :) i hope i didnt wounder 2 far off the topic :o


BRAVO LBM!!!! Now THAT is what I call having personal awareness. And personal awareness leads to personal responsibility.

I also find the name calling and finger pointing ... well ... stupid, frankly. And we've all been stupid. We know what it feels like when we go there.

Occasionally in a room like this name calling and finger pointing can add some fun and spice. But, when that's ALL that makes up a persons rhetoric, then their threads become stupidity personified. And when they spread that to thread after thread ... I, for one, find it incredibly boring. I read less and less and I'm tempted to look elsewhere for political discussion.

So snowdog ... I hope you return. And you have raised an excellent point.

[littlebigman]

BRAVO LBM!!!! Now THAT is what I call having personal awareness. And personal awareness leads to personal responsibility.

I also find the name calling and finger pointing ... well ... stupid, frankly. And we've all been stupid. We know what it feels like when we go there.

Occasionally in a room like this name calling and finger pointing can add some fun and spice. But, when that's ALL that makes up a persons rhetoric, then their threads become stupidity personified. And when they spread that to thread after thread ... I, for one, find it incredibly boring. I read less and less and I'm tempted to look elsewhere for political discussion.

So snowdog ... I hope you return. And you have raised an excellent point.

i am as supid as 1 can b i think...but What? i want 2 tell u s that i hope folx understand that when i hav done the "name call'n" on my posts, i hav done it with a spirit of hope that it was go'n to giv the 1 it was directed at a laugh and would help enduce deeper engagement...i am sory if its effect was not such...
snowdog, please cum bak...without u, i and no1 can ever b whole...whether we agree on stuff or not...

[Jane of Arc]

I wasn't talking about you LBM!!! Hell, I find you a breath of fresh air! :)

[JamesP]

Snow - I appreciate your post and the open and honest appeal for a more civil exchange of ideas.

The "Bush-bashing" that is so prevalent on this site is the uncontrolled emotional expression of the shock, outrage and sadness many of us feel about where our country has gone under the Bush administration.

GWB is simply the symbol, for many of us, of the worst of America: a side of our American character that has always been present, but has rose to dominance under this administration:
corrupt, priviliged, reckless, closed & simple-minded, unsophisticated, prone to "violence as a solution" so long as we are bigger and stronger than our opponent, willing to say whatever is necessary to get their way, out of touch with ordinary Americans and operating without rules.
(there, I've gotten my "bash" in)

Beyond the bashing, though, the site offers a place where people who care alot about their country, fellow Americans & the world can exchange facts, thoughts and ideas.

I appreciate your presence here.

[Jane of Arc]

Snow - I appreciate your post and the open and honest appeal for a more civil exchange of ideas.

The "Bush-bashing" that is so prevalent on this site is the uncontrolled emotional expression of the shock, outrage and sadness many of us feel about where our country has gone under the Bush administration.

GWB is simply the symbol, for many of us, of the worst of America: a side of our American character that has always been present, but has rose to dominance under this administration:
corrupt, priviliged, reckless, closed & simple-minded, unsophisticated, prone to "violence as a solution" so long as we are bigger and stronger than our opponent, willing to say whatever is necessary to get their way, out of touch with ordinary Americans and operating without rules.
(there, I've gotten my "bash" in)

Beyond the bashing, though, the site offers a place where people who care alot about their country, fellow Americans & the world can exchange facts, thoughts and ideas.

I appreciate your presence here.

Very well stated JamesP!!! I wish you comment more in this room. We need erudite, thinking people as yourself. That's a compliment! :D

[littlebigman]

I wasn't talking about you LBM!!! Hell, I find you a breath of fresh air! :)


What? :D

[gratelady1]

If you ever listen to Conservative radio talk-shows, whenever this president or his admin. does something really stupid, they all of the sudden go on vacation, or "on assignment", I beleive it is because they already are completely frustrated having to waste so many "On-air" minutes/ time defending the moron, that when something like the following happens they all disappear- as opposed to having to go there!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177307,00.html

Go figure!

But then again, if they would not talk or defend this Pres and his policies; what would they have to talk about? Kind of like the juxdaposition snowdog found himself in- If he is not in here defending Bush or the current policies, what else would he have to talk about?... thus the irony.....

[littlebigman]

If you ever listen to Conservative radio talk-shows, whenever this president or his admin. does something really stupid, they all of the sudden go on vacation, or "on assignment", I beleive it is because they already are completely frustrated having to waste so many "On-air" minutes/ time defending the moron, that when something like the following happens they all disappear- as opposed to having to go there!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,177307,00.html

Go figure!

But then again, if they would not talk or defend this Pres and his policies; what would they have to talk about? Kind of like the juxdaposition snowdog found himself in- If he is not in here defending Bush or the current policies, what else would he have to talk about?... thus the irony.....

i hav no doubt that u really r a greatlady...
that b'n said...whats the point of ur post..? i mean u cant change that can u..?
y not find a common ground that s currently b'n ignored bcuz of the kind of diconnected diversions u post about which s exactly how the masters want u spend'n ur time instead of focus'n through the bull and act'n on ur survival by FIND'N DA COMMON GROUND..? :)

[gratelady1]

i hav no doubt that u really r a greatlady...
that b'n said...whats the point of ur post..? i mean u cant change that can u..?
y not find a common ground that s currently b'n ignored bcuz of the kind of diconnected diversions u post about which s exactly how the masters want u spend'n ur time instead of focus'n through the bull and act'n on ur survival by FIND'N DA COMMON GROUND..? :)

Very good point, but lets build on your points, if someone has no intention of "finding common ground", because it is in thier agenda- not to allow for change- ie. they are anti-progressive, then what common ground do you suggest?

The status quo is the status quo, you suggest that there is nothing that can be done about it, alas, you have no common ground with me either, because I dont think like that.

If I did not at least have hope for change, then why would I be here?

THE SITE IS SUPPOSED TO BE FOR PROGRESSIVES, ASK -V- TO VERIFY!

There are mainly 3 types of active folks here, those that [B]dont want no change, and try to control everything, everwhere, so as to protect thier interest, and then there are those that are not satisfied with the status quo, here looking for a connection with others like them, to find an alternative, and then there are those that are like you- in the middle, just following along with what looks like the best- most logical premises.

Snowdog was here to defend the status quo, I am here to promote a more progressive agenda, at least I admit it, and I dont yell, scream and whine about my lack of credibility. I dont need any!

You can be bored by my presistant progressive views and tune out if you like, more power to you, but I will be consistent, and If you want change from the status quo, then you are in the right place, but while you are here, dont preach to the choir, I know what I am doing, I cannot do anything about folks like snowdog, that have thier heads so far up thier President's colon, that they dont realize how much of thier lives and our time, they are wasting, defending the insignificant simpleton.

[littlebigman]

Very good point, but lets build on your points, if someone has no intention of "finding common ground", because it is in thier agenda- not to allow for change- ie. they are anti-progressive, then what common ground do you suggest?

The status quo is the status quo, you suggest that there is nothing that can be done about it, alas, you have no common ground with me either, because I dont think like that.

If I did not at least have hope for change, then why would I be here?

THE SITE IS SUPPOSED TO BE FOR PROGRESSIVES, ASK -V- TO VERIFY!

There are mainly 3 types of active folks here, those that [B]dont want no change, and try to control everything, everwhere, so as to protect thier interest, and then there are those that are not satisfied with the status quo, here looking for a connection with others like them, to find an alternative, and then there are those that are like you- in the middle, just following along with what looks like the best- most logical premises.

Snowdog was here to defend the status quo, I am here to promote a more progressive agenda, at least I admit it, and I dont yell, scream and whine about my lack of credibility. I dont need any!

You can be bored by my presistant progressive views and tune out if you like, more power to you, but I will be consistent, and If you want change from the status quo, then you are in the right place, but while you are here, dont preach to the choir, I know what I am doing, I cannot do anything about folks like snowdog, that have thier heads so far up thier President's colon, that they dont realize how much of thier lives and our time, they are wasting, defending the insignificant simpleton.

oh my god girl if u thinx i n any way rep anythin but my self u need 2 rereed my posts... :rolleyes: i am so different and unique that evey site either ignores or bans me...
further more, im about 2 turn ur status quo upside down on its head
n the only way posibly 2day...the courts!!!
and guess what?{no offense What? :D } i didnt need 2 convince u or sd or any1 but da judges...i dont even gotz 2 vote and im gonna get the world i and my offspring need 2 liv and so r u bcuz of what i do...
so u go on think'n whatever it s ur think'n and do'n and i'll b do'n the work 2 make sure u still hav a world 2 do it n... :)

[gratelady1]

oh my god girl if u thinx i n any way rep anythin but my self u need 2 rereed my posts... i am so different and unique that evey site either ignores or bans me...
further more, im about 2 turn ur status quo upside down on its head
n the only way posibly 2day...the courts!!!
and guess what? i didnt need 2 convince u or sd or any1 but da judges...i dont even gotz 2 vote and im gonna get the world i and my offspring need 2 liv and so r u bcuz of what i do...
so u go on think'n whatever it s ur think'n and do'n and i'll b do'n the work 2 make sure u still hav a world 2 do it n... :)

If you can use the courts- great, but I dont see that you will be able to soon, as the repubs, will have dominated them here shortly also.

I dont mean tp criticize you- but if you are ignored or banned it is not because of your views, I would say it is how you manually express them :o

Your shorthand (text message style) can be a bit painful and I would read more of your stuff- save for the migraines I get :(

I dont want to tell you how to type or write- I strongly believe everyone's voice should be unique, but folks my age learned to read the old-fashioned way- sorry but I will try to expand my reading abilities.

[littlebigman]

If you can use the courts- great, but I dont see that you will be able to soon, as the repubs, will have dominated them here shortly also.

I dont mean tp criticize you- but if you are ignored or banned it is not because of your views, I would say it is how you manually express them

Your shorthand (text message style) can be a bit painful and I would read more of your stuff- save for the migraines I get

I dont want to tell you how to type or write- I strongly believe everyone's voice should be unique, but folks my age learned to read the old-fashioned way- sorry but I will try to expand my reading abilities.

im sory 2 greatlady :( i dont mean 2 cause headakes...nope nope...
i mean 2 help pps understand 2 b tolerant of others no matter how different they r, and 2 just try harder 2 understand eachother bcuz sumhow we must...
the point s that wether its me write'n like i do or sd giv'n ya the high hard1, WE MUST LEARN 2 LIV 2GETHER AND NEVER LOSE SITE OF THAT GOAL...the last way 2 start s 2 giv n 2 a headake 2day and hav missunderstanding and war 2morro...
im glad u over came my adverse effect on ur brain at least 4 dis exchange cuz me luvz ur brain...its not like mine...im insane :p ...
just play'n!!! :D

[littlebigman]

hey gl1,
i wrote dis 2 a Rabbi this evening with a crap load of info and briefs attached...thought it might b less headake and more interest'n 4 ya..?

Rabbi,
I apologize for not writing back sooner, I to am over my head in it.
Your note was honest and real, that’s how I know you are honest and
real whether you decide to help or not, thank you for that, its all one can ask.
I have brought a long overdue case to federal civil court.
The case has the intended potential for establishing precedent on multiple fronts.

1. it will redefine what the 100th monkey thought of what role ‘religion’ and or ‘spirituality’ plays in our attempt at society.
2. it will reclaim the 1st amendment ‘religious’ freedoms rights {now held lock and key by the Christian right}for peace minded individuals in meaning and in law.
3. it will finally bridge the gap between ‘science’ and ‘religion’ in reality of fact.
4. it will totally undermine any existing legal foundation for genetically modified organism patents, ownership of life, the perfect evolution of slavery.
5. it will establish a new bottom line for equality and peoples idea of such in terms of all life.

In other words it seeks to show and prove the chain of life and the interdependencies of all life.

6. there are also other basic law precedents it will and has already set that go more to technical specs on sewing the government for injunctive relief on any issue.
7. it will also finally show people that the 3rd branch is accessible to even the ‘poore$t’ and least ‘educated’ of us.

These grand and entirely possible leaps in human evolution I speak to come from what you would probably expect to be a very unlikely root cause of action, so much so that even bringing the topic out at this point in my note might have you moving on to the next order of your day, never to give this another thought. I hope to god this won’t be your reaction because this case needs your testimony and the testimony of others that can corroborate the facts of life on the stand in a federal court.
Think of it this way, when you’ve lost something, where is it that you can usually find it again? Its almost always a very obvious place that you just haven’t thought of to look yet.
This could be the most real chance any of us have ever had to effect change towards a sustainable evolution of the human form, and I don’t know that it has a chance without folks like you.
The 1st amendment is the only chance any of us have, most do not know this and wouldn’t believe you if you told them,{not to mention the bitter taste many folks get in their mouths these day even saying the word ‘religion’}
I have set the stage for the perfect evolution of the inherit the wind trial, only this time it’s a civil case and we finally have the science to prove in a court of law that the world is ‘round’{in a manner of speaking} and interdependent.
I’m unsure on what brief to provide at the top of the list here because I and cannot afford to scare you off.
I ask that you read the fallowing briefs and the original complaint in hopes that you will gain an understanding of what this is all about. I’m not sure how else to approach this with you.
As you read these documents please keep in mind that I only have an eighth grade ‘edu’
And that I’ve never read a book in my life. I just know who and what I am naturally, and from hearing interviews you have given, I believe you know what I know and you don’t learn it from books.
Sincerely yours,
Ron

Well here goes, I hope you’re sitting down...


well gl, What? do u think... :D

[gratelady1]

LBigman,

Thank you so very much for going to the process of sharing in a style I can consume, It was very appetitizing, but where is the main course- aka- the briefs?

I am intrigued, and would appreciate the trouble you would go through to "quench my appetite- for any and all knowledge".

[littlebigman]

LBigman,

Thank you so very much for going to the process of sharing in a style I can consume, It was very appetitizing, but where is the main course- aka- the briefs?

I am intrigued, and would appreciate the trouble you would go through to "quench my appetite- for any and all knowledge".


:cool: gL1!!! im glad no headake!!!

if u really r interested n more, just hit this link and start with the original complaint...then move on down the list of moving papers...
maybe thinx of it as reading a book :eek: ...{psst...its dat and much much more}

http://www.hemphasis.net/kiczenski.htm

thanx gL1 !!! u gotz me smile'n 2 start da day :)