[Jane of Arc]

In the mood of the Christmas spirit it's hard to ignore the message or the messenger. Christ. And make no mistake about it ... if Christ were here today he would be in the front line of the anti-war rally promoting peace, protesting with the other anti-globalist before the G8 Summit & the World Bank on behalf of the poor and hungry. He would be fighting side by side with other liberals for the rights of the less fortunate and world peace.


Christ was NOT pro-war, but pro-peace. When someone slaps your face you turn the other cheek. That means you do not perpetuate violence. That means you understand that dehumanization cannot be fought with more dehumanization.

Christ told us to love thy enemy. That means we must learn to understand our enemies culture and religion. Love means we take responsibility for the actions of America and other western nations in creating conflict in the Middle East. It means to act with compassion and understanding rather than sanctions and bombs.

Christ taught us to feed the poor.

Christ taught us to care for the sick.

Christ taught us to have compassion for the less fortunate.

Christ taught us to share and give rather than hoard with greed when he tipped over the tables of the money lenders.



When I first heard the term "compassionate conservative" I, and every liberal I knew, laughed. It was and remains a bad joke. There is nothing .... I repeat ... NOTHING compassionate about conservatives!!!

They are the most un-Christian group of people I have ever witnessed. They wouldn't know 'peace, love and understanding' if it came up and bit them in the ass!

Love and Peace on Earth to All! Even the Conservatives! Please may they learn.

[MAGI]

You say IT WELL!

[snowdog]

Hummm I thought it was bad (according to the liberals) to use the words
"Christmas".

Curious how Jesus would feel about Me being taken to court because I want
to show my belief in the Christian religion, values.

Seems to me that many are much more upset that we even talk about Jesus,
or GOD. Last I heard it was bad because it offended 9% of the US population.

[gratelady1]

So help me understand this- so I wont be a Heathren and Infidel anymore-
Jesus came and hung out on a cross, so all our sins would be forgiven, and if we but believe in him, we can get to heaven?

Does that make Jesus the devil's catalyst, due to the fact that now Christians and Catholics can sin all they want, and but ask for forgiveness, and beleive in him, they will still get to heaven?

If you sin, and know that it is not right to sin, and sin anyway- I dont care what any person says- your going to hell- period- and the devil can not use anyone- least of all Jesus, to say its ok to sin.

[JamesP]

If Jesus walked the earth today, the last thing he'd be is a "Christian" (at least, as practiced by the American religious right).

What a sad, cruel twist they've given to the philosophies of Christ.

GrateLady is on target:

The fundamentalist "christian" belief that it is faith and not acts that determine salvation is simply a license to give in to the basest part of their natures and still claim their ticket to heaven and right to judge others cruelly.

[Jane of Arc]

Once again ... well said JamesP!!!

And just as I thought! Not one Republican could give a good reason as to why Christ was NOT a liberal progressive!

He is the Prince of Peace who would say, "STOP THE WAR NOW! STOP THE KILLING NOW! THOU SHALL NOT KILL! LOVE THY ENEMY! DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU! STOP THE WAR NOW!!!"

I rest my case.

[haus]

Hey look! What?'s Back! At the risk of posting fluff, I say "Whohoo!" and bust out the champagne. :)

[Jane of Arc]

Hi Haus! Thank you very much for the warm welcome back! I was pretty busy at work ... but I have time to goof off again for a bit.


If Christ Were President

I was thinking more and more about my "Jesus was a Progressive Liberal" and I really think I'm onto something here. This is a profoundly Christian country. So who better to promote the progressive values than Christ himself! She what I mean? Way cool. Check it out ...

If Christ were the President:

(1) Would HE take our country into war by invading, occupying and bombing thousands of innocent victims? Would Christ execute a "Shock & Awe"?

(2) Would Christ condone capital punishment (including crucifixtion) and execute people like Bush's gory record?

(3) Would Christ give the poor an increase in the minimum wage? Bush won't.

(4) Would Christ fight to keep torture part of US policy? Bush does.

(5) Would Christ support a government that would spy on it's citizens without their knowledge? Bush does.

(6) Would Christ be a liar? Bush has no concept of the truth.

(7) Would Christ support legislation to drastically lower medical aide to the elderly? Bush did ... many times.

(8) Would Christ decrease funding to schools? Bush did.

(9) Would Christ give tax breaks to the wealthy when the poor suffer? Bush can't do that enough.

(10) Would Christ allow "off-shore" corporations to operate in the US, but not pay fair taxes while the poor and middle class carry the tax burden? Bush knows no other way.

(11) Would Christ support universal health coverage? You bet your sweet bippy he would. Bush does not.

I could go on for days!!!! Let's make this a long list ... please add to it. And it's a rallying cry!

[JamesP]

Alas, it is quite clear to all but the intentionally blind that Bush and his cronies are no Christians.

[snowdog]

Yea, Jesus would of pushed the congress to make Gay marriages legal.

Jesus would of been really upset that with the possibility of a
nomination of a conservative judge to the Supreme Court, that
abortion could quite possibliy be abolished.

Jesus was a Liberal? LOL.... I don't think so.

[littlebigman]

Yea, Jesus would of pushed the congress to make Gay marriages legal.

Jesus would of been really upset that with the possibility of a
nomination of a conservative judge to the Supreme Court, that
abortion could quite possibliy be abolished.

Jesus was a Liberal? LOL.... I don't think so.

ok sd its mr T time ima thinx'n...iv let u off da littlebig hook until now, but when uzall starta rant'n anda preach'n bout what i woulda done wit dis or dat i can only take so much b4 i cum bak :D

u c sd when i was jeezUS i was only 4 godz lawz and so the false masters had 2 act against me...
godz lawz r the lawz of nature complex yet simple and born un2 u even witout bookz of written lawz...
no matter what the mirepresentationz of my message uv read from my jeezUS time might b, i can asure u sd that i was then and still am 4 an end 2 all prisonz lawz and borders...these thinz only suport the horders and true coruption disruptionz...
find the trust 4 eachother n the reality that u r 1 n the other and when
the moneyz finally gone wit da capitalist drive that has moved it on, there will b a chance 2 b u agin and luv agin and grow 4 real agin...it will b real progress sd, real evolution...when all the pps turn away from the corpse and bak 2 the land and work hand n hand n a peaceful harmonious existance yet undisovered n dis red white and very blue land...
what..did ya thin 1 littlebig time on da cross hairz and i just left town...
'jeezUS :rolleyes:'
itz all 4ever sd...hehe...datz y u gotzta learn 2 liv 2gether or itz just hell we make 2 b da 4ever...
wish'n u a healthy new year of free growth from the root of unconditional luv,
from ur everlast'n friend whoz head'n 4 da mountain 4 ya 1 mo timez agin,
so cheer up charlie...uv got da golden tikket, cuz uv got a golden ray of sunshine n ur hart...and 2 make a new day thatz da surefire way 2 start
;)
jeezUS

[snowdog]

I'm sorry LBM, but I will not read your post until you talk (type) it in English.
It really doesn't make you look cool or inteligent. You kinda appear as a punk
writing that way.

[Jane of Arc]

Yea, Jesus would of pushed the congress to make Gay marriages legal.

Jesus would of been really upset that with the possibility of a
nomination of a conservative judge to the Supreme Court, that
abortion could quite possibliy be abolished.

Jesus was a Liberal? LOL.... I don't think so.


Snowdog ~ please explain how Republicans are like Christ:

(1) How do Republicans help the poor?
(2) How do Republicans help the sick? What program do Republicans have for universal health care, so every American has health coverage like the rest of "western nations"?
(3) How do Republicans work for civil rights in America?
(4) How do Republicans work for peace ... not through war, but true peace?
(5) How do Republicans help minorities besides enlisting them into the military?
(6) How do Republicans help the poor by rejecting every bill to raise the minimum wage?
(7) What do Republicans do that's pro-environment?
(8) What do Republicans do about the global warming crisis?
(9) What do Republicans do about racial inequality?

All you have is gays and abortion?

In the New Testament, the teachings of Christ, HE said nothing against gay people. This is the radical-right brainwashing you with the help of the hate-mongers O'Reilly and Limbaugh. Christ said to love others as you would love yourself. To treat others as you would treat yourself.

On abortion ... this is the ONLY .... ONLY gray area of morality the right-wing has. In Roe vs. Wade it prohibits late term abortion and leaves early abortion the choice of the woman. It basically says it's not a government decision.

But, here's the question ... in the very beginning of a pregnancy ... when it's only a grouping of cells ... and it's part of the woman's body ... does she have the right to reverse this event and abort? Should she go to jail for "murder" if she does?

But this is the ONLY moral issue the right has ... and they have taken it to the bank.

The left has all the Christian values ... helping the poor, helping the sick, being pro-peace, fighting for an increase in minimum wage for all workers, fighting for racial equality, fighting for the rights of women, protecting the environment, promoting anti-global warming regulations, fighting for national health care, .... the list is long.

Jesus was a Progressive Liberal!!!!

Once again I rest my case. SWOOOSH!!! 2 points!

:cool:

[littlebigman]

I'm sorry LBM, but I will not read your post until you talk (type) it in English.
It really doesn't make you look cool or inteligent. You kinda appear as a punk
writing that way.

the same reason that u hav turned ur bak and denied my luv is what keepz u able 2 kill me n all my other formz when u make war instead of oneness understanding and unconditional luv...
:(

[littlebigman]

Jesus was a Progressive Liberal!!!!

Once again I rest my case. SWOOOSH!!! 2 points!

:cool:

what?, do u understand that jeezUS iz all beliefs..?
jeezUS iz what? u say 2, but not n the sentament or context that u state it n...
do u understand that if jeezUS HAD BEEN RUNN'N 4 PRES HE WOULD HAV BEEN KEPT OUT OF THE DEBATES BY 'LIBS' AND 'CONS' ALIKE ..?
please dont continue this devisiv lie that presumes again just as the 'cons' hav presumed 2 use my spirit 2 hurt and seperate...
my message has alwayz been as simple as just lett'n the light of ur unconditional luv and oneness shine through 2 and with all and all is god just like the peice that iz u...
letz hope 4 a better what? ;) thiz new year...

[Jane of Arc]

what?, do u understand that jeezUS iz all beliefs..?
jeezUS iz what? u say 2, but not n the sentament or context that u state it n...
do u understand that if jeezUS HAD BEEN RUNN'N 4 PRES HE WOULD HAV BEEN KEPT OUT OF THE DEBATES BY 'LIBS' AND 'CONS' ALIKE ..?
please dont continue this devisiv lie that presumes again just as the 'cons' hav presumed 2 use my spirit 2 hurt and seperate...
my message has alwayz been as simple as just lett'n the light of ur unconditional luv and oneness shine through 2 and with all and all is god just like the peice that iz u...
letz hope 4 a better what? ;) thiz new year...


Christ was a peace radical

Happy New Year LBM!

You say, "what?, do u understand that jeezUS iz all beliefs..?" Well, I don't agree LBM. When you say ALL beliefs ... Jesus didn't believe in war ... military attacks ... the bombing and killing of thousands of innocent people. Jesus was The Prince of Peace. But, I know what you're trying to say.

But, hear what I say to you. I am sick and tired of war-mongers trying to justify this disgusting, aggressive, illegal, amoral war by hiding behind the American flag and calling themselves "patriots". I'm sick and tired of right-wing, pro-war "Taliban Christians" perverting Jesus's life of peace.


I am neither a Democrat or a Republican. But, the Republicans are trying to claim Jesus as "theirs" with all their "gay bashing" and "family values". But if you look at the life of Christ ... helping the poor, healing the sick, feeding the hungry, thou shall not kill ... HE is on the side of progressive liberals in "values".

I try to get a long with all people. And I love all people. But, I can love them and disagree. I refuse to suck up when people support and promote war, lies and greed. Remember when Christ tipped over the tables of the money lenders in the public square? HE expressed anger and outrage because the poor were made to suffer. Christ was a "peace radical" who challenged the militaristic Roman Empire and was crucified for it. I am not afraid to be devisive. I am not afraid to stand up.

[snowdog]

humm where to start....

(1) How do Republicans help the poor?

More "conservatives" donated to help the victims of Hurrican Katrina.


(2) How do Republicans help the sick? What program do Republicans have for universal health care, so every American has health coverage like the rest of "western nations"?
LOL, I haven't heard one viable or serious plan from the Dems on Health care.

(3) How do Republicans work for civil rights in America?

I guess we could start out with the fact that it was Dems in the south that
fought against Civil rights. Ummm, Colen Powell Sec of State.....Condy Rice
our US attorney Gen is hispanic. Bill Clinton put how many minorities in positions
in his admin?

(4) How do Republicans work for peace ... not through war, but true peace?
Again... Did Mr. Clinton not send troops into Bosnia? Samilia? Was Vietnam
not started by a Democrat administration? I might add, I'm pretty sure
Mr. Reagan was a republican, didn't he have something to do with bringing
down the Soviet Union? THE COLD WAR... you know for years the biggest
threat to world peace? Remember fat assed Ted Kennedy fought Reagan all
along the way..........

(5) How do Republicans help minorities besides enlisting them into the military?

I don't know what you know about the military, obviously your info is from
idiots like Micheal Moore and such. How much time did you spend in the Military to know whats going on there what? ? Lest you forget It was Bill Clinton who did the welfare reform thing...........LOL, how the hell have Democrats helped Minorities? ya got plenta of blacks pissed off that now the hot issue is the "gay rights crusade".

How are republicans supposed to "help" minorities? by saying that "well" since
your an African American, you'll get the slot in this company. You telling me
about civil rights is pretty stupid when you think about it.
(6) How do Republicans help the poor by rejecting every bill to raise the minimum wage? LOL and then the Dems raise the Taxes and prices for goods and services
shoot up beyond their higher minimum wage levels. Damn.... wake up.
(7) What do Republicans do that's pro-environment?
By far, conservatives have put more work and money into the environment
and to strengthen animal population levels

(8) What do Republicans do about the global warming crisis?

Global Warming crises..... as I understand it, a large population in the scientific
arena, feel that Global warming is a trend that has happened for the past
3 million years. And you may want to direct your anger about that towards
the Chinese, the Europeans. Oh.... but there not Republicans and they don't
even pay attention to the Democrats political rants
(9) What do Republicans do about racial inequality?

again I mentioned it before.... The Rebublicans got on the Southern Democrats
in the 60's to allow more racial equality. as for Dems helping out. hummm
in NO, La seems the democrats can't seem to account for all the monies that
were supposed to go towards the Levees. Now, Please don't be blinded by
you hatred of Republicans. but You are aware that La, politics are notorious
for the corruptions in public office. Oh did I mention the Mayor of Detroit,
councilman in DC, Hell, they booted their elected Governor outt office in Ca.
but Dems don't seem to like to be reminded about that do ya?

[Jane of Arc]

Snowdog~

Thank you for taking the time to answer all the points. I appreciate your effort.

And I could counter every point easily, but I realize it would be an exercise in complete futility.

There is nothing I can say to influence what you believe. And there is probably very little you could say to influence me.

We couldn't be more different. You are retired military. I am the furthest thing there could be from the military. I've spent my time in universities, first studying, then briefly teaching. Now I am a writer and an artist.

We see the world from exactly opposite perspectives. And I have very little luck with conservatives in any kind of discussion and it's frustrating. I truly don't understand them. They don't understand me. And this country is divided to the point of almost civil war.

For the life of me I don't understand why you come in this room. The thought of me going into a Republican chat room ... yuck ... I'd kill myself.

:confused:

[sweetpea]

Snowdog~

Thank you for taking the time to answer all the points. I appreciate your effort.

And I could counter every point easily, but I realize it would be an exercise in complete futility.

There is nothing I can say to influence what you believe. And there is probably very little you could say to influence me.

We couldn't be more different. You are retired military. I am the furthest thing there could be from the military. I've spent my time in universities, first studying, then briefly teaching. Now I am a writer and an artist.

We see the world from exactly opposite perspectives. And I have very little luck with conservatives in any kind of discussion and it's frustrating. I truly don't understand them. They don't understand me. And this country is divided to the point of almost civil war.

For the life of me I don't understand why you come in this room. The thought of me going into a Republican chat room ... yuck ... I'd kill myself.

:confused:

--HAts off what.

That was an honest post. It took some guts to post it.

A couple of suggestions, and they are sincere.

1.) Get away from the University life for a year and see some reality. I lived on a college campus for 5 years myself and then went to the real world that most of my professors shied away from. There is a fine line between cynicism and skepticism. Too many university livers turn into cynics, in my opinion.

2.) Try to understand the others' point of view. It is worhtwhile in my opinion. If you don't you become closed minded and sheltered.

[JamesP]

Snow -

Your answers are mainly empty rationalizations:

For example:

"ya got plenta of blacks pissed off that now the hot issue is the "gay rights crusade".

Civil rights & gay rights: all the same to you: Complete nonsense, I gather.
More tax cuts for the wealthiest white people is the right answer for you here.

"How do Republicans help the poor by rejecting every bill to raise the minimum wage? LOL and then the Dems raise the Taxes and prices for goods and services
shoot up beyond their higher minimum wage levels. Damn.... wake up."

Yes: "wake up" and implement more tax cuts for the richest white people - here again, as always: the right answer.

And the Dems are for gay rights and abortion - Let's have more tax cuts for the richest white people!

I suggest that you limit future arguments to:

- Tax cuts for the wealthy are the answer to all domestic problems
- Military power is the answer to all international problems (only because we have an overwhelming military advantage & so: might does make right)
- Republicans hate gay people and it makes us all hostiel & crazy.
- Bill Cinton or some other Dem did it too, or did something else that makes everything Bush does ok.

It'll save time and make you feel better and we won't have to read so much empty & dishonest dribble.

[MAGI]

--HAts off what.

That was an honest post. It took some guts to post it.

A couple of suggestions, and they are sincere.

1.) Get away from the University life for a year and see some reality. I lived on a college campus for 5 years myself and then went to the real world that most of my professors shied away from. There is a fine line between cynicism and skepticism. Too many university livers turn into cynics, in my opinion.

2.) Try to understand the others' point of view. It is worhtwhile in my opinion. If you don't you become closed minded and sheltered.


I NEVER had the good fortune to attend college, other than 2 business community college courses, and feel what What? posts............ reflect my thoughts! Wonder how both of us have pretty much the SAME opinions..............giving our difference in schooled education?

[MAGI]

Also, if anyone listens to Charles Goyette on Air America KXXT, Phoenix, AZ,.......listen tomorrow (Tueday morning.....goes off at 10:00AM)..........about how the Jesus "Christ"......."ian" outfit that bought up KXXT are trying to kick off TRUTH!

[Jane of Arc]

I NEVER had the good fortune to attend college, other than 2 business community college courses, and feel what What? posts............ reflect my thoughts! Wonder how both of us have pretty much the SAME opinions..............giving our difference in schooled education?


MAGI~

First, I feel you're very intelligent. And that intelligence is powered by compassion and sensitivity. We both want the world to improve past war, poverty, greed and hate. I think we both know that the only course for humanity, if we want to survive, is to take care of each other and the planet.

[snowdog]

well What? I am sure you are educated. I don't doubt that you have a college
background. But So do I. with a bachelors degree in political Science.
and a degree in computers. Does that make me smarter than you ar anyone else?
of course not Do I have more experiences than you on a worldly scale? ahh
yes I believe I do. the biggest problem I have in your recent writings is the
fact that you bring up Jesus, and try to explain what he would like and dislike..
and yet Your I'll quick to point out the "rights" a woman has concerning
abortion, and I can only imagine your feelings towards gay marriage. Ya can't
have it both ways.......using religion to justify your opinion, and then going
against it because it doesn't fit into your agenda is about..."blasphemy".

JamesP... LOL, I fail to see what the hell your talking about..........as I
Am African-American! I might also add that you don't suggest
nothing to me. You are not the one with your White wisdom to tell me
about unfairness in racial equality. I was raised in a poor african american
community. I am not ashamed of my roots, However.. I did what many
others did I worked hard at having a better life. If that Upsets other
African Americans so be it. I consider myself to be succesful. People need
to get off their lazy asses and take charge of their lives, rather than sit
around and take as much as they can from the Government. Enough is enough.
Yes, lets go out of our way to help the children, lets do everything we can
to help the children. But I'll be damned if I will give any more $ to a 35 yr old
Katrina victim because they choose not to leave the area when they were told
to....It's been estimated that over 200,000 running automibles were ruined because of the storm. WHY? because the idiots refused to listen to what the
US government had told them, as well as what the crooks in La politics told
them. YOU pay for other peoples screw ups.


So many of you all seem to think that conservative minded people are stupid
and immoral. Then of course there are the idiots that call conservatives
communist and such, this clearly shows there intellectualism. FOR>>>>
in a capitalistic society..... one is given the opportunety to expand their
knowledge and wealth. So naturally there are going to be wealthy, middle-
income, and poor. You that label conservatives as communist.... I suggest
you take a look at what communism is and what capitalism is. because again
your making a fool outta your selves.

[Jane of Arc]

--HAts off what.

That was an honest post. It took some guts to post it.

A couple of suggestions, and they are sincere.

1.) Get away from the University life for a year and see some reality. I lived on a college campus for 5 years myself and then went to the real world that most of my professors shied away from. There is a fine line between cynicism and skepticism. Too many university livers turn into cynics, in my opinion.

2.) Try to understand the others' point of view. It is worhtwhile in my opinion. If you don't you become closed minded and sheltered.


Thanks sweatpea. I haven't lived in a university setting for years. I was sharing my history with snowdog as a way of comparison. He's "military". I'm "university".

I've traveled much of the world, I've been rich, I've been poor, I've lived in many places, had all sorts of friends and feel I have a grasp on the "real world". I didn't mean to paint just a cloistered image.

I try VERY hard to understand conservative thinking. I bend over backwards. I stand on my head. I twist my mind into a pretzel. I consider myself very politically open-minded. I am a total independent and a member of neither party who wants to live according to the Constitutuion in a true democracy. It's that simple for me.

[snowdog]

Oh my GOD! Your talking about being more openminded and sheltered.

That is amusing. Suggest you re-read the constitution with your college
skills, you'll find that it not nor ever was written up as a "TRUE DEMOCRACY"

[sweetpea]

Thanks sweatpea. I haven't lived in a university setting for years. I was sharing my history with snowdog as a way of comparison. He's "military". I'm "university".

I've traveled much of the world, I've been rich, I've been poor, I've lived in many places, had all sorts of friends and feel I have a grasp on the "real world". I didn't mean to paint just a cloistered image.

I try VERY hard to understand conservative thinking. I bend over backwards. I stand on my head. I twist my mind into a pretzel. I consider myself very politically open-minded. I am a total independent and a member of neither party who wants to live according to the Constitutuion in a true democracy. It's that simple for me.
---

Fair enough.

One minor note, though. teh Constitution does not call for a true Democracy. In fact, it specifically spells out something htat is very different.

However, I'll take the spirit of your comment and believe you want to live by the Constitution, as do I.

[Jane of Arc]

Do I have more experiences than you on a worldly scale? ahh
yes I believe I do.

A totally baseless opinion. You have no idea of my experiences.


and yet Your I'll quick to point out the "rights" a woman has concerning
abortion, and I can only imagine your feelings towards gay marriage. Ya can't
have it both ways.......using religion to justify your opinion, and then going
against it because it doesn't fit into your agenda is about..."blasphemy".

Your writing is hard to understand. But let me see if I can respond to what I think you're trying to say.

(1) Religion and the teachings of Christ are 2 different things. Do you understand this concept?

(2) Jesus said nothing against gay people or gay marriage. HE did say that we should love our brother as ourselves and treat others as you would want to be treated.

(3) Jesus also said nothing about abortion. Try to understand the concept of the beginning of a pregnancy when there is an invisable tiny cluster of cells INSIDE THE WOMAN'S BODY. Is this a "sentient being"? No. And yet the "right-wing 'Christian' Taliban" have blocked RU-486, which is a pill that would immediately prevent the cells from growing. Who is to 'play God' and say when life begins?


People need
to get off their lazy asses and take charge of their lives, rather than sit
around and take as much as they can from the Government. Enough is enough.
Yes, lets go out of our way to help the children, lets do everything we can
to help the children. But I'll be damned if I will give any more $ to a 35 yr old
Katrina victim because they choose not to leave the area when they were told
to....It's been estimated that over 200,000 running automibles were ruined because of the storm. WHY? because the idiots refused to listen to what the
US government had told them, as well as what the crooks in La politics told
them. YOU pay for other peoples screw ups.

Snowdog~ you lack compassion, understanding and wisdom. Certainly there were some who were "lazy" and didn't leave. But the vast majority of these people were:
(1) invalids
(2) elderly
(3) sick people
(4) children
(5) people stuck without useful local transportation and planning
(6) mentally challenged
(7) emotionally disturbed
(8) people who stayed behind to help family and friends
(9) people who stayed behind to serve their community
(10) and just too damn poor to have the resources like a credit card or money to leave.

And then we can't ignore the fact that against all warning of the impending doom in New Orleans, the Bush Administration cut federal funding to have the levees repaired and renewed. Why? To pay for his illegal, amoral, murder of thousands of innocent Iraqi people ... the Iraq War!

[JamesP]

Snow:

Your race is irrelevant.

Your often irrational support for a political group that uses cultural and racial issues to manipulate working people to vote against their interests is relevant.

I applaud your hard work and self-reliance.
Having achieved some success, however, your generalizations about others being lazy or irresponsible, the intent of which is to justify your callousness toward them, is somewhat deplorable.

I suspect that you've been on the Limbaugh diet for too long (lol - it makes people of all races fat, stupid, greedy & self-justifying).

You mention the Democrats position on gay rights frequently.
It fascinates me that so many Americans are hung up on this issue and that it has been used to such political effect by the right.

Can you explain a bit about why the gay rights issue so inflames people like yourself?

What great harm is done if we heterosexuals share the same rights with homosexuals?

[snowdog]

(1) Religion and the teachings of Christ are 2 different things. Do you understand this concept?


Perhaps you are right what? So could you please educate me what the
difference is between religion.... and the teachings of Christ are?

That I mention that I feel I have seen more of this world than you, Your
quick to point out your greatness in intellect. So since you didn't mention
traveling the world in your words, Its easy to believe that You haven't
spent much time over seas.

Me..... 3 yrs in OKINAWA
3 years in Germany
18 months on the N. Korean Border
a total of 1 year and 2 months in Kuwait, and Iraq
8 months in Cuba (Guat bay)
6 months in the Sinai Penninsula
3 months in Chad
6 months in the UK
2 months (well....52 days in Panama)

of course there are about 6 other countries I don't mention as I spent
less than 3 weeks in any of those.

[snowdog]

JamesP. I can accept your comments on me being mean towards some.
I clearly pointed out, that I am all for doing everything possible
for the young and the elderely. But why should I have to pay
for somewone who refuses to work? Why should my friend in
Michigan have to give up his epilepsy Medications because he
cannot afford them? while a rapist or child molester, etc. has
no problems with the state paying for their Medications on my dime.
or from the taxes paid by my friend with epilepsy!! why don't you tell
me how callous that is. a guy works 2 jobs for 15 years, and becomes ill,
while a felon can get three meals a day cable TV, and his meds. while
he is "punished" for his/her crime.

I believe you and people like what? are sincere in your opinions, I
am sure you mean well, But It is obvious that my opinions are of no
value, because I am not a liberal minded person. So people like me
according to so many liberals are stupid, and dumb. LOL, well then
the majority of Americans are stupid and dumb as case in point GWB
was reelected.....I know I know the whole election was a scam the
the Republicans cheated in Ohio, Fl, and how many other states?

whats even more bizzare is the fact that I actually consider myself
an Independant. Yes due to my preference of GWB over the idiot
J Kerry in 2004. my state (Wa) told me that I must be listed as a
republican.

as for gay marrriages........I have no problem what so ever with Gay
people, unions, I believe that 2 men or 2 women can raise a child in
a house filled with love and devotion towards that child. I do not
support a Gay Marriage though. as it appears the majority of Americans
don't either. You can disagree with me.. sure. but you damn sure cannot
sit there and tell me I am wrong. Any more than I can tell you your wrong
because you have no problem with Gay Marriage. As for why I put it in as
a democrat issue, ummm. last time I checked, there wasn't any large
conservative (republican) group supporting gay marriages. at least as compared to the Democratic side. please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

[Jane of Arc]

Religion and the teachings of Christ are 2 different things. Do you understand this concept?
Perhaps you are right what?

So could you please educate me what the
difference is between religion.... and the teachings of Christ are?

It would be my pleasure snowdog. :p


Religion

Religions are organized, institutionalized systems of belief. They don't take root in society as "one of the world's religions" until they are sanctioned by a state. All religions have rules. All religions have a distinct hierarchy of power. The higher the position of a religious leader in the hierarchy the closer they are presumed to be to God. All formal religions are patriarchies. God is considered to be a "Him", reflecting this patriarchal society. It should be noted that the first Roman Emperor to legalize the activities of the Jewish followers of Christ as a religion was Constantine in the 4th c. Many say that's when Christianity was born.

The Teachings of Christ

Seeing that Christ didn't write the New Testament Himself, we rely on interpretations from a multitude of sources years, centuries after His death. But the stories they tell weave powerful, spiritual messages that they say were the "teachings of Jesus Christ".

Religions are based on the lives, ideas and insights of amazing beings with amazing souls like Christ, Buddha, Allah ... etc. who are here to raise the consciousness of the world ... to save the world. But the very occurance of "a religion" counters the very message of the messenger. Because Christ, a Jew, encouraged people to have a 'one-on-one' relationship with God. You don't need a Church, Mosque, Temple of "religion" ... you just need your own soul.

[snowdog]

I apologise What?, I see your point, I must of been a bit tired, or something
to think that Jesus Christ is a symbol of religon. But gosh, what? how
come so many gripe about the baby Jesus scene during the holidays? They're
arguement is that it is a religous symbol, and in fact apparently crosses the
line of the seperation of church and state. Or, why do people get so upset
when they see Christ on the cross ? But I guess with your university
education....you can easily explain that can't you?


Oh and by the way what? you haven't mentioned your worldly travels.
please do.

[Jane of Arc]

[QUOTE=snowdog]I apologise What?, I see your point, I must of been a bit tired, or something
to think that Jesus Christ is a symbol of religon. But gosh, what? how
come so many gripe about the baby Jesus scene during the holidays? They're
arguement is that it is a religous symbol, and in fact apparently crosses the
line of the seperation of church and state. Or, why do people get so upset
when they see Christ on the cross ? But I guess with your university
education....you can easily explain that can't you?

Yes, my education comes in real handy all the time. And I'd love to help you out with your present quandary.

If some people have problems with the anyone saying Merry Christmas, displaying a baby Jesus or a Christ on the cross ... there people are idiots.

If some people have problems with saying Merry Christmas, displaying a baby Jesus, a Christ on the cross or the Ten Commandments on government or public commons they are 100% right.


Oh and by the way what? you haven't mentioned your worldly travels.
please do.

Oh my snowdog~ I am no where near the world traveler you are! That must of been wonderful and extremely exciting to live in those foreign places. I have only lived in the US, but traveled to Europe, South America, Central America (stayed in the jungle a while), sailed in the Atlantic, Caribbean and Pacific Oceans, Canada, Greenland, Hawaii ... that's it. I really want to see the Pyramids in Eygpt!

[JamesP]

Snow: It is my firm belief that a small majority of Americans are dumb, selfish, fearful and easily manipulated.

Hence the re-election of GW Bush: The politician least deserving of re-election in American history: his 1st term being characterized by collosal & costly blunders, mis-steps and mis-statements. He was saved only by terrorism, fear & smear.

It is not your being a Republican that discredits you in this venue.
Even we progressives can understand that there are valid reasons thoughtful and caring people lean Republican.

It is your fervent defense of the indefensible Bush administration that boggles the progressive mind.

We agree, you & I, that hard working people should not be denied the medication they need to stay healthy. I would simply take it a step further and ensure that even those who can not work hard receive the health care they need. I am, after all, my brother's keeper.

And I appreciate your "live & let live" attitude toward homosexuals. I wouldn't have surmised it from a number of your previous posts.

Will wonders never cease?

[Jane of Arc]

Snow: It is my firm belief that a small majority of Americans are dumb, selfish, fearful and easily manipulated.

Hence the re-election of GW Bush: The politician least deserving of re-election in American history: his 1st term being characterized by collosal & costly blunders, mis-steps and mis-statements. He was saved only by terrorism, fear & smear.

It is not your being a Republican that discredits you in this venue.
Even we progressives can understand that there are valid reasons thoughtful and caring people lean Republican.

It is your fervent defense of the indefensible Bush administration that boggles the progressive mind.

We agree, you & I, that hard working people should not be denied the medication they need to stay healthy. I would simply take it a step further and ensure that even those who can not work hard receive the health care they need. I am, after all, my brother's keeper.

And I appreciate your "live & let live" attitude toward homosexuals. I wouldn't have surmised it from a number of your previous posts.

Will wonders never cease?



BRAVO JamesP!!! Very well stated!!!

(May I add that we will never know if Bush really won. American national elections are more rigged than Dolly Parton's under garments!)

[snowdog]

Hey JamesP..... I never want anyone to think I am against gay people.
I guess perhaps because I bring it up in political Issues that I leave
myself open to misrepresentation. I have no problem with gays at all though
I just at this time feel uncomfortable about gay marriage.

[Jane of Arc]

I have no problem with gays at all though
I just at this time feel uncomfortable about gay marriage.

Snowdog~ I'm sure the guy will understand you're not ready for marriage, if you explain it to him nicely. Be sensitive.



Sorry, couldn't resist. :p

[gratelady1]

Snowdog~ I'm sure the guy will understand you're not ready for marriage, if you explain it to him nicely. Be sensitive.



Sorry, couldn't resist. :p

I think snowdog wants to marry another mutt, not a human, he is just not comfortable around all humans.

Sorry I could not resist either :cool: .

[FDRfollower]

Hello all. I noticed that this thread has lagged some after all the pretensious bickering.

I'd like to pose this to those on the "liberal" side, just to take things from a different perspective. And I ask this as someone who has had NUMEROUS arguments and discussions with liberals mostly from the Boston area and San Francisco area, being a political activist for a number of years.

I ask, because it upsets me about equating Jesus with todays "progressive" liberals. In my view, Jesus represents the embodiment of the Prometheus principle. Something that is sadly lacking in the post '68 left. Does the 1968 counter-culture really represent the values of Jesus? Looking at the culture of the left, what do I see? A pale imitation of the Roman empire, all the degeneracy without the violence.

If you're wondering, yes, I abhor the the Hobbsian outlook of the "Christian" right, who, I can see in my minds eye, shouting "CRUICIFY HIM!!", having dealt with those poor fools. Just imagine, being brainwashed since the 50's to equate FDR's progressive policies with communism/socialism, and I can see the problem of both the left and the right.

I hope you've read your Aeschylus.

That's my two pennies. 8)

[JamesP]

FDR: Umm, uh, (cough-cough)... huh?

Pretension: Prometheus.... Hobbsian... Aeschylus...

I gather, with some difficulty, that your question is:

Does the 1968 counter-culture really represent the values of Jesus?

I would say: In part... but, yes, infused with a hedonism that was not very "Christ-like".

Can you expound a bit more on the "problem of both the left and the right"?

Interesting.

[Jane of Arc]

Hello all. I noticed that this thread has lagged some after all the pretensious bickering.
Hello. Welcome aboard! Thanks for your thoughts.

I'd like to pose this to those on the "liberal" side, just to take things from a different perspective. And I ask this as someone who has had NUMEROUS arguments and discussions with liberals mostly from the Boston area and San Francisco area, being a political activist for a number of years.

I ask, because it upsets me about equating Jesus with todays "progressive" liberals. In my view, Jesus represents the embodiment of the Prometheus principle. Something that is sadly lacking in the post '68 left. Does the 1968 counter-culture really represent the values of Jesus? Looking at the culture of the left, what do I see? A pale imitation of the Roman empire, all the degeneracy without the violence.
Let me attempt to do the "Herculean" task of responding. :) But, I need to understand. What do you see changing in 1968? What happened that such a counter-culture emerged? In 1968 did Prometheus become chained to the rock? And how does Epimetheus fit into your scenario?

And please go into futher detail as how you see Christ and Prometheus similar, other than the obvious "sons of gods" and their gifts to man. How are their "gifts" similar?

If you're wondering, yes, I abhor the the Hobbsian outlook of the "Christian" right, who, I can see in my minds eye, shouting "CRUICIFY HIM!!", having dealt with those poor fools. Just imagine, being brainwashed since the 50's to equate FDR's progressive policies with communism/socialism, and I can see the problem of both the left and the right.
I enjoyed reading this. Hobbsian outlook. Perfect!. This new perversion of the teachings of Christ ranks right up there with the Inquisition. The fact that millions actually listen to, much less believe, Pat Robertson is one of the scariest things in the present world.

I also feel I can see the problems on both the left and right ... being an individual without a political party. I started this thread to point out what's obvious to me ... that the "principles/ideals/conscience" of the progressive left ... not the actions of the present Democratic Party ... are much more in line with Christ. The thread is also 'tongue in cheek' because the right-wingers have claimed Christ.

I hope you've read your Aeschylus.

Greek tragedies? Not since college. But it strangely comes back, when my head is knocked and a dusty book falls off my cerebral shelf.

[snowdog]

Do ya really think Jesus would choose any political sides? Suggest you
maybe do a bit more reading of the bible.

[Jane of Arc]

Do ya really think Jesus would choose any political sides? Suggest you
maybe do a bit more reading of the bible.

snowdog~

I don't know why, but I like you snowdog. Go figure? When I read your posts I get a big smile on my face. I don't know why (other pprogressives would disagree with me on this) ... but, I know you are really trying to get to the bottom of things. Anyway ...

Jesus DID pick political sides. He was on the side of the poor, the sick, the people without a voice ... he was a complete dissenter who took on the establishment. He rebelled against the established religion of his community. He protested the government and went to jail as a common thug and was executed by Roman soldiers in the name of the State. He was a proponet of peace ... The Prince of Peace ... in the very militaristic backdrop of the Roman Empire. Brave huh?

[JamesP]

Of course, the philosphies of Jesus lean heavily progressive:

Peace, forgiveness, mercy, brotherhood, love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek, disregard for material wealth, charity, humility, adopting the life of a simple carpenter for his stint on earth.
Jesus could support no war: never condone acts of violence by one man toward another - much less because some governmental authority ordered it.

The old testament God was more Republican, more like earthly Kings: vengeful, jealous, prideful, all about hellfire & damnation, demanding tribute & worship and punishing all for the sins of a few.

Bush-style Republicans are old testament. Liberals new testament. ;)

[Jane of Arc]

Bush-style Republicans are old testament. Liberals new testament. ;)

B*I*N*G*O!!!!!!

[FDRfollower]

FDR: Umm, uh, (cough-cough)... huh?

Pretension: Prometheus.... Hobbsian... Aeschylus...
I gather, with some difficulty, that your question is:
Does the 1968 counter-culture really represent the values of Jesus?
I would say: In part... but, yes, infused with a hedonism that was not very "Christ-like".
Can you expound a bit more on the "problem of both the left and the right"?
Interesting.

This would be a VERY long post, if I attempted to explain in detail, I think I bit off a bit more than I could chew. :o

As I peer among the various social movements in recent history in the US, the only movement that I can point to with certainty, that exemplified the teachings of Christ, was the effort led by Martin Luther King, Jr. I cannot find anything else in recent times that even comes close to what he was able to accomplish. The left reminds me of the warnings of Paul (if in fact Paul wrote it, which is in doubt) in 1 Corinthians 13, which in todays slang would be "you can talk the talk, but you can't walk the walk." Go to most anti-war rallies, and the common refrain is "I"M SO OUTRAGED!!!" It's easy to say love, peace, understanding, etc. but it sounds pretty hollow. It resembles christians mouthing bible slogans in order to bribe their way into heaven. Or perhaps, it's just the old "I want to be overheard saying the right thing even though I don't really believe it".

In the realm of economics, the left really goes off the deep end. You can at least have a semi-rational discussion with a traditional conservative, if he hasn't been infected with the free-market disease. They can see, in a simplified way, the need of industry, & technological progress for better wages and living standards. Most of those I've run into, who "claim" to be leftist seem to approach technology and the economy from an almost Luddite viewpoint. The result, free trade/globalization/environmentalism have actually increased poverty and suffering globally.

[FDRfollower]

Let me attempt to do the "Herculean" task of responding. :)

ha ha ha! :D

[B]But, I need to understand. What do you see changing in 1968? What happened that such a counter-culture emerged? In 1968 did Prometheus become chained to the rock? And how does Epimetheus fit into your scenario?
And please go into futher detail as how you see Christ and Prometheus similar, other than the obvious "sons of gods" and their gifts to man. How are their "gifts" similar?

A lot changed in 1968. Our Prometheus was executed, Martin Luther King, Jr. The government conducted a mass drugging of the population. The only other effective leader available, Kennedy was assasinated. The McCarthy kids had the crap beat out of them at the convention. Nixon aligned the Republican party with the KKK. Out of which, extreme pessimism, and essentially, the birth of the MEME generation was born.

I just finished the Prometheus Bound last week, and it hit me very hard, the parallels to Christs mission. Think of the situation, mankind is kept in a bestial unhuman level by the Olympian Oligarchy. Prometheus, because of his love of mankind, risks persecution (and to have an eagle rip you up for eternity, is to REALLY love, or as Socrates put it, Agape, the highest level of love) to give knowledge to man, and free him from ignorance. That, I can see in what Christ was saying, in dealing with the evil of the Roman Oligarchy. That he was willing to assert a principle of mankind at the expense of his life, is like Prometheus.

There's more to say, but I have to run. I'll be back.

I enjoyed reading this. Hobbsian outlook. Perfect!. This new perversion of the teachings of Christ ranks right up there with the Inquisition. The fact that millions actually listen to, much less believe, Pat Robertson is one of the scariest things in the present world.

I also feel I can see the problems on both the left and right ... being an individual without a political party. I started this thread to point out what's obvious to me ... that the "principles/ideals/conscience" of the progressive left ... not the actions of the present Democratic Party ... are much more in line with Christ. The thread is also 'tongue in cheek' because the right-wingers have claimed Christ.
[/QUOTE]

[snowdog]

Of course, the philosphies of Jesus lean heavily progressive:

Peace, forgiveness, mercy, brotherhood, love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek, disregard for material wealth, charity, humility, adopting the life of a simple carpenter for his stint on earth.
Jesus could support no war: never condone acts of violence by one man toward another - much less because some governmental authority ordered it.

The old testament God was more Republican, more like earthly Kings: vengeful, jealous, prideful, all about hellfire & damnation, demanding tribute & worship and punishing all for the sins of a few.

Bush-style Republicans are old testament. Liberals new testament. ;)


My goodness JamesP

Lets see now, I take it you feel that Jesus could "overlook" the abortion issue?

Perhaps Jesus would back the liberals view on Pornography? the Gay rights
movement?

And just to be clear, I had mentioned this before, but before you try to get
the backing of Jesus for your agenda, I would suggest that you read up on
your bible, It is not a good idea to present False Testimony. And that is what
you are doing JamesP.

and JamesP... I could be wrong, but I assume you are pretty staunch about
the issue of Seperation of Church and State. If so, then why the heck bring
up Jesus and republicans and Democrats? but I guess you can bend your
views a bit to further your agenda. Use Jesus when ya can, but overall, lets
keep religion outta politics ain't that right JamesP?

And What? thank you for the kind words, YES I truely want to get to the root
of the problem, to understand it. Because GWB administration tells me they are
right Blah Blah Blah, I certainly don't believe it all. anymore than Pelosi or
Kennedy telling their side. They are all POLITICIANS, furthering THEIR agenda.
It IS up to us to get thru all the BS and make decisions, You and several
others have made some good points What?, I have been enlightened on quite
a few subjects.........The people that kind of get me going are the ones who
(republican and Democrat) don't tell me their views (perhaps they have none)
but continually want me and everyone else to read articles by everyone from
Michael Moore, to Fox News, and they are all OPINIONS. But yet a few seem
to think "Look what the New York times wrote!" or the ever popular see the
poll I found..... "88% of those polled say they are in favor of Gay Marriage." Yet
what they don't realize of at least forget to mention, is that the poll was done
in the San Fransisco area ! Not to pick on Magi, but Magi does that all the time. I am certainly not saying that MAGI is an idiot, but I would really like
to hear MAGI's thoughts and why on subjects not an article of someone else's
opinion.

[JamesP]

My goodness JamesP
I'm not too sure about "your goodness" Snow, leaning Republican as you do ;)
It's getting difficult to have a dialogue with you.

Lets see now, I take it you feel that Jesus could "overlook" the abortion issue?

The abortion issue is a very difficult one for me. I can see all sides of it. I am not for abortions. I believe in "Thou shalt not kill" and am consistent with respect to this. Are you?

the Gay rights movement? I think the philosophy of Jesus involved love of everyone and treating them as you would like to be treated, so, yes, I think his philosophies support "gay rights".

I would suggest that you read up on your bible, Are you a biblical expert, my f(r)iend Snow? It is not very evident from your writings. I know something about the bible, enough to understand how it can be twisted and distorted by both sides of any issue, but Jesus' philosophy is fairly clear.

and JamesP... I could be wrong, but I assume you are pretty staunch about
the issue of Seperation of Church and State. If so, then why the heck bring
up Jesus and republicans and Democrats? but I guess you can bend your
views a bit to further your agenda. Use Jesus when ya can, but overall, lets
keep religion outta politics ain't that right JamesP?
Religion & religious philosophy are interesting to me, although I am not "religious". I do want our government to stay out of religion. But, of course, we can discuss it privately, as we are doing, superficially, here in this thread (mostly "tongue in cheek").

[snowdog]

whether you are for or against abortions JamesP, that is insignificant.
there is NO arguement about how as you would say Jesus would feel
about abortions.

gay rights> I think perhaps you really do need to brush up on your
bible reading. Jesus is the son of GOD JamesP. and GOD on several
occasions showed his wrath towards the people. read your old testament
and you'll see that God looks at Homo-sexuality as an abomination. Where
the heck do ya think "sodomy" comes from?

your last comment, concerning the importance of Seperation of church and
state, well maybe I didn't "comprehend" it to well due to my moron thoughts
being a military person. but I didn't see much about your reply. Saying
Jesus was/is a progressive liberal, that Republicans are "old Testament"
Progressive's are "new Testament", I'm pretty dumb on a lot of subjects
there JamesP. but you are putting religion in politics JamesP. hasn't your
ACLU been complaining about that for decades? You are contradicting
yourself JamesP obviously to further your party's agenda, I definitly won't
fault you for that. but either keep religion outta politics, Gov, Keep the
10 commandments outta court houses. OR go along with it. you cannot
have it both ways JamesP.

[snowdog]

A little help for ya JamesP..............

I might also add, that its in the NEW Testament also! :D


http://www.holyscriptures.com/hs_4.htm


also what is the difference between Pat Roberson and his antics and
JamesP claiming that Jesus was a progressive liberal? This is not
meant to be a personal attack on you JamesP. but lets face it......

Both are pretty stupid comments.

[MAGI]

RELIGION Should NOT be "used" by OUR GOVERNMENT

Words from a REAL representative of Jesus, who READS & quotes the bible:
Pat Robertson................ :rolleyes:

Pat just LOVES humanity.............. :D

From the NY Times:

"But Mr. Robertson upset many Israelis by suggesting Mr. Sharon's devastating stroke last Wednesday was divine punishment for pulling Israel out of Gaza last summer.

"God considers this land to be his," Mr. Robertson said Thursday on his television program, "The 700 Club."
"For any prime minister of Israel who decides he will carve it up and give it away, God said, 'No, this is mine.' "

"I would say woe unto any prime minister of Israel who takes a similar course," Mr. Robertson added."

ANOTHER "religious" Christian........................Who "talks" to God AND receives "the word" ...................from God!

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/12/international/middleeast/12mideast.html?th&emc=th

[JamesP]

Snow: You're really confusing me now.

I repeat "with tongue only half-way in cheek" that, overall, the philosophies of Jesus are much more aligned with American progressives than Bush / Iraq war supporters. This is obvious, even to you, I'm sure. Of course, no one can claim Jesus as their own - it's just a point made for "dramatic illustration". Don't let the basic truth of it get your goat.

To alleviate my confusion: what is with you and the gay issue? You keep going back to it & make many conflicting statements, take different positions at different times. You seem to be waffling, "going both ways" so to speak? It's so unlike you.

What is the real deal?
Do you want them smitten or should they be able to live their lives as free citizens in a free nation with equal rights for all - even the people you don't like?

[FDRfollower]

Since this "debate" is getting a little antsy, I've decided to invite a freind from the 16th Century, Francois Rabelais, to teach you a lesson about debating. To get the full flavor, invite a friend or four, and act it out to the letter.

book 2 XIX.
How Panurge put to a nonplus the Englishman that argued by signs.
Everybody then taking heed, and hearkening with great silence, the Englishman lift up on high into the air his two hands severally, clunching in all the tops of his fingers together, after the manner which, a la Chinonnese, they call the hen's arse, and struck the one hand on the other by the nails four several times. Then he, opening them, struck the one with the flat of the other till it yielded a clashing noise, and that only once. Again, in joining them as before, he struck twice, and afterwards four times in opening them. Then did he lay them joined, and extended the one towards the other, as if he had been devoutly to send up his prayers unto God. Panurge suddenly lifted up in the air his right hand, and put the thumb thereof into the nostril of the same side, holding his four fingers straight out, and closed orderly in a parallel line to the point of his nose, shutting the left eye wholly, and making the other wink with a profound depression of the eyebrows and eyelids. Then lifted he up his left hand, with hard wringing and stretching forth his four fingers and elevating his thumb, which he held in a line directly correspondent to the situation of his right hand, with the distance of a cubit and a half between them. This done, in the same form he abased towards the ground about the one and the other hand. Lastly, he held them in the midst, as aiming right at the Englishman's nose. And if Mercury,--said the Englishman. There Panurge interrupted him, and said, You have spoken, Mask.
Then made the Englishman this sign. His left hand all open he lifted up into the air, then instantly shut into his fist the four fingers thereof, and his thumb extended at length he placed upon the gristle of his nose. Presently after, he lifted up his right hand all open, and all open abased and bent it downwards, putting the thumb thereof in the very place where the little finger of the left hand did close in the fist, and the four right-hand fingers he softly moved in the air. Then contrarily he did with the right hand what he had done with the left, and with the left what he had done with the right.
Panurge, being not a whit amazed at this, drew out into the air his trismegist codpiece with the left hand, and with his right drew forth a truncheon of a white ox-rib, and two pieces of wood of a like form, one of black ebony and the other of incarnation brasil, and put them betwixt the fingers of that hand in good symmetry; then, knocking them together, made such a noise as the lepers of Brittany use to do with their clappering clickets, yet better resounding and far more harmonious, and with his tongue contracted in his mouth did very merrily warble it, always looking fixedly upon the Englishman. The divines, physicians, and chirurgeons that were there thought that by this sign he would have inferred that the Englishman was a leper. The counsellors, lawyers, and decretalists conceived that by doing this he would have concluded some kind of mortal felicity to consist in leprosy, as the Lord maintained heretofore.

[FDRfollower]

Part 2.

The Englishman for all this was nothing daunted, but holding up his two hands in the air, kept them in such form that he closed the three master- fingers in his fist, and passing his thumbs through his indical or foremost and middle fingers, his auriculary or little fingers remained extended and stretched out, and so presented he them to Panurge. Then joined he them so that the right thumb touched the left, and the left little finger touched the right. Hereat Panurge, without speaking one word, lift up his hands and made this sign.
He put the nail of the forefinger of his left hand to the nail of the thumb of the same, making in the middle of the distance as it were a buckle, and of his right hand shut up all the fingers into his fist, except the forefinger, which he often thrust in and out through the said two others of the left hand. Then stretched he out the forefinger and middle finger or medical of his right hand, holding them asunder as much as he could, and thrusting them towards Thaumast. Then did he put the thumb of his left hand upon the corner of his left eye, stretching out all his hand like the wing of a bird or the fin of a fish, and moving it very daintily this way and that way, he did as much with his right hand upon the corner of his right eye. Thaumast began then to wax somewhat pale, and to tremble, and made him this sign.
With the middle finger of his right hand he struck against the muscle of the palm or pulp which is under the thumb. Then put he the forefinger of the right hand in the like buckle of the left, but he put it under, and not over, as Panurge did. Then Panurge knocked one hand against another, and blowed in his palm, and put again the forefinger of his right hand into the overture or mouth of the left, pulling it often in and out. Then held he out his chin, most intentively looking upon Thaumast. The people there, which understood nothing in the other signs, knew very well that therein he demanded, without speaking a word to Thaumast, What do you mean by that? In effect, Thaumast then began to sweat great drops, and seemed to all the spectators a man strangely ravished in high contemplation. Then he bethought himself, and put all the nails of his left hand against those of his right, opening his fingers as if they had been semicircles, and with this sign lift up his hands as high as he could. Whereupon Panurge presently put the thumb of his right hand under his jaws, and the little finger thereof in the mouth of the left hand, and in this posture made his teeth to sound very melodiously, the upper against the lower. With this Thaumast, with great toil and vexation of spirit, rose up, but in rising let a great baker's fart, for the bran came after, and pissing withal very strong vinegar, stunk like all the devils in hell. The company began to stop their noses; for he had conskited himself with mere anguish and perplexity. Then lifted he up his right hand, clunching it in such sort that he brought the ends of all his fingers to meet together, and his left hand he laid flat upon his breast. Whereat Panurge drew out his long codpiece with his tuff, and stretched it forth a cubit and a half, holding it in the air with his right hand, and with his left took out his orange, and, casting it up into the air seven times, at the eighth he hid it in the fist of his right hand, holding it steadily up on high, and then began to shake his fair codpiece, showing it to Thaumast.
After that, Thaumast began to puff up his two cheeks like a player on a bagpipe, and blew as if he had been to puff up a pig's bladder. Whereupon Panurge put one finger of his left hand in his nockandrow, by some called St. Patrick's hole, and with his mouth sucked in the air, in such a manner as when one eats oysters in the shell, or when we sup up our broth. This done, he opened his mouth somewhat, and struck his right hand flat upon it, making therewith a great and a deep sound, as if it came from the superficies of the midriff through the trachiartery or pipe of the lungs, and this he did for sixteen times; but Thaumast did always keep blowing like a goose. Then Panurge put the forefinger of his right hand into his mouth, pressing it very hard to the muscles thereof; then he drew it out, and withal made a great noise, as when little boys shoot pellets out of the pot-cannons made of the hollow sticks of the branch of an alder-tree, and he did it nine times.
Then Thaumast cried out, Ha, my masters, a great secret! With this he put in his hand up to the elbow, then drew out a dagger that he had, holding it by the point downwards. Whereat Panurge took his long codpiece, and shook it as hard as he could against his thighs; then put his two hands entwined in manner of a comb upon his head, laying out his tongue as far as he was able, and turning his eyes in his head like a goat that is ready to die. Ha, I understand, said Thaumast, but what? making such a sign that he put the haft of his dagger against his breast, and upon the point thereof the flat of his hand, turning in a little the ends of his fingers. Whereat Panurge held down his head on the left side, and put his middle finger into his right ear, holding up his thumb bolt upright. Then he crossed his two arms upon his breast and coughed five times, and at the fifth time he struck his right foot against the ground. Then he lift up his left arm, and closing all his fingers into his fist, held his thumb against his forehead, striking with his right hand six times against his breast. But Thaumast, as not content therewith, put the thumb of his left hand upon the top of his nose, shutting the rest of his said hand, whereupon Panurge set his two master-fingers upon each side of his mouth, drawing it as much as he was able, and widening it so that he showed all his teeth, and with his two thumbs plucked down his two eyelids very low, making therewith a very ill-favoured countenance, as it seemed to the company.

[snowdog]

Snow: You're really confusing me now.

I repeat "with tongue only half-way in cheek" that, overall, the philosophies of Jesus are much more aligned with American progressives than Bush / Iraq war supporters. This is obvious, even to you, I'm sure. Of course, no one can claim Jesus as their own - it's just a point made for "dramatic illustration". Don't let the basic truth of it get your goat.

To alleviate my confusion: what is with you and the gay issue? You keep going back to it & make many conflicting statements, take different positions at different times. You seem to be waffling, "going both ways" so to speak? It's so unlike you.

What is the real deal?
Do you want them smitten or should they be able to live their lives as free citizens in a free nation with equal rights for all - even the people you don't like?

War is bad. Period. From what I know Jesus
does not condone war.......but He wouldn't condone abortion, and he wouldn't
and Doesn't condone homosexuality. there is no Gray area. You know that,
your pride won't let you say it. perhaps the bible is not "politically correct"
for liberals in the year 2006. but thats the way it is.


JamesP, there is no contradiction in what I am saying..... I say that I have no
Problems with Gays....(except gay Marriage) I made it abundantly clear I thought
I am only saying that Jesus or his father does not accept homosexuality, I have
shown you from the bible ( New and Old Testament) It is considered an
abomination. My point has only been, that to claim Jesus was a liberal.....I
pointed out two pretty big reasons why that is absurd. To say that Jesus
would except homosexuality is well, according to the bible is a stupid statement.
That is a fact JamesP. You can hold the opinion that Jesus would tolerate the
gay lifestyle.....but that doesn't make you right.

Oh and MAGI. Pat Roberson is no representative of Jesus... No more than the
POPE is. The Pope does not "represent" Jesus.

[Jane of Arc]

Okey dokey snowdog~
War is bad. Period. From what I know Jesus
does not condone warNew Testament: Revelation: Chapter 13: Verse 10: "10": He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

He wouldn't condone abortion,Jesus said nothing on the subject. You will say, "it's murder", which He definitely didn't like. But you must realize that in the beginning of a pregnancy it's not only part of the woman's body and no one elses ... it's just a group of cells and hardly a "person to murder". and he wouldn't
and Doesn't condone homosexuality. Sorry ... Jesus says nothing against homosexuality. He does say, "to love thy brothers as thyselves". And in the New Testament there are endless passages where God will stike down people who take other people's lives and says "blessed are the peacemakers for they shall inherit the Earth." there is no Gray area.
The Bible is an ancient text written in an ancient language by human beings not Jesus. Most of it was written centuries after the death of Christ based on passed down stories. Some of the Bible was buried and lost. Heads of states had it politicized from Constantine to the King James version. It's been translated to death with so many "versions" it's ridiculous. It's loaded with allegories and metaphors to the point the Bible contradicts itself. The best we can do is get a general energy from the stories about Christ. And that energy is love, peace and understanding. He wasn't called the Prince of Peace for nothing!

[MAGI]

RELIGION Should NOT be "used" by OUR GOVERNMENT

Words from a REAL representative of Jesus, who READS & quotes the bible:
Pat Robertson................ :rolleyes:

Pat just LOVES humanity.............. :D

From the NY Times:

"But Mr. Robertson upset many Israelis by suggesting Mr. Sharon's devastating stroke last Wednesday was divine punishment for pulling Israel out of Gaza last summer.

"God considers this land to be his," Mr. Robertson said Thursday on his television program, "The 700 Club."
"For any prime minister of Israel who decides he will carve it up and give it away, God said, 'No, this is mine.' "

"I would say woe unto any prime minister of Israel who takes a similar course," Mr. Robertson added."

ANOTHER "religious" Christian........................Who "talks" to God AND receives "the word" ...................from God!

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/12/international/middleeast/12mideast.html?th&emc=th

Definitions:
Representative:

Definition of representative (noun forms plural: representatives)
delegate; agent; person who acts on behalf of another person or organization

Christianity: Definitions of christian on the Web:

relating to or characteristic of Christianity; "Christian rites"
following the teachings or manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus Christ
a religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ and who is a member of a Christian denomination
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Pat Robertson:
CBN.com - The Christian Broadcasting Network - The 700 Club with ...American Center for Law & Justice • Pat Robertson · Regent Center For Missions • Regent University · CBN Africa • CBN Asia • CBN China • CBN Europe ...
www.cbn.com/ - 41k - Cached - Similar pages


Pope:
Pope - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaVicar of Christ is more appropriate to the Pope, as he takes the place of Jesus as ... In canon law, the Catholic Pope is referred to as the Roman Pontiff ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope - 80k - Cached - Similar pages

[snowdog]

thank you Joan of Arc. for helping me to prove my point..........

" The Bible is an ancient text written in an ancient language by human beings not Jesus. Most of it was written centuries after the death of Christ based on passed down stories. Some of the Bible was buried and lost. Heads of states had it politicized from Constantine to the King James version. It's been translated to death with so many "versions" it's ridiculous. It's loaded with allegories and metaphors to the point the Bible contradicts itself. The best we can do is get a general energy from the stories about Christ. And that energy is love, peace and understanding. He wasn't called the Prince of Peace for nothing!"


So, quoting you.........when JamesP and others try to use Jesus's teachings
It boils down to OPINIONS.........because the bible has been translated down
so many times with the many versions.........SO, as you said. "the best we
can do is get a general energy from the stories about Christ" And that
Joan, would be an OPINION. to which it is an incorrect statement to say
that Jesus was a progressive liberal. that is no more factually true than
for me to say that Jesus was a staunch conservative. which I have never
said. to even think that Jesus would not support Pro-life is ludicrist. That is
a fact. Thank You for proving my point Joan! :D

[Jane of Arc]

Oh snowdog ~ snowdog ~ snowdog!

What am I going to do with you?! Have you ever heard of irony, snowdog? Of course you have. I was being ironic.

OF COURSE IT'S "LUDICRIST" (or ludicrous ... I insist on helping you with your spelling!) to politically label Jesus. He loved all people. His deeds ... not Him ... were much more aligned with liberals ... peace, feeding the hungry, helping the poor, etc. BUT ... for liberals to claim Jesus to promote their political goals would be creepy, vile and wrong. If they called themselves the "Religious Left" and used Christ to wield their political hammer, how disgusting that would be!

THAT is exactly why I posted this to show what the "religious right" been doing to everyone who doesn't agree with them! They have politicized Christ! They've USED Christ. They've CLAIMED Christ as their own. And it's ludicrous! As MAGI has so often said in this thread ... don't mix religion and politics. Keep separation between Church and State because it's WRONG!

So thank you for helping me prove my point snowdog! You've been an enormous help and a pleasure to work with. :D


Jane of Arc
(the artist formerly known as What?)

(It's Jane, not Joan. Can't stand the name Joan. So don't be messing with my name.)

[snowdog]

well Jane, I take it that your actually WHAT? ? what ever, but if I helped
to prove any point you were trying to make... I don't mind. BUT with what you
said. It is then an incorrect statement to say by you or JamesP, that Jesus
was/is a progressive liberal. and if you were to go back into this thread.
You would see that is what I have been saying all along. as for my spelling,
You were a bit wrong I was being a bit sarcastic and using the rap singer
Ludicrist. apparently it went a bit over on you though so I apologize.

[Jane of Arc]

snowdog~

Yes,-V-changed my name at my request because it was too confusing. I didn't know if people were addressing me or saying "What?".

Very clever ... Ludicrist ... you got me on that one ... you dog, you!

[littlebigman]

Christ was a peace radical

Happy New Year LBM!

You say, "what?, do u understand that jeezUS iz all beliefs..?" Well, I don't agree LBM. When you say ALL beliefs ... Jesus didn't believe in war ... military attacks ... the bombing and killing of thousands of innocent people. Jesus was The Prince of Peace. But, I know what you're trying to say.

But, hear what I say to you. I am sick and tired of war-mongers trying to justify this disgusting, aggressive, illegal, amoral war by hiding behind the American flag and calling themselves "patriots". I'm sick and tired of right-wing, pro-war "Taliban Christians" perverting Jesus's life of peace.


I am neither a Democrat or a Republican. But, the Republicans are trying to claim Jesus as "theirs" with all their "gay bashing" and "family values". But if you look at the life of Christ ... helping the poor, healing the sick, feeding the hungry, thou shall not kill ... HE is on the side of progressive liberals in "values".

I try to get a long with all people. And I love all people. But, I can love them and disagree. I refuse to suck up when people support and promote war, lies and greed. Remember when Christ tipped over the tables of the money lenders in the public square? HE expressed anger and outrage because the poor were made to suffer. Christ was a "peace radical" who challenged the militaristic Roman Empire and was crucified for it. I am not afraid to be devisive. I am not afraid to stand up.

and when u do janewhat? i and jeezUS will b right and left by ur side... itz time 2 ride... letz roll :eek: :D

good heavenz jw i luvu u so... know that wherever u go and whatever u do 4 luv, we will b there with and 4 u :)

[Jane of Arc]

and when u do janewhat? i and jeezUS will b right and left by ur side... itz time 2 ride... letz roll
good heavenz jw i luvu u so... know that wherever u go and whatever u do 4 luv, we will b there with and 4 u :)
Oh, I'm standing LBM! I've even started taking some baby steps. Thanks for the support from u and jeezUS. Letz roll indeed. :)

[snowdog]

snowdog~

Yes,-V-changed my name at my request because it was too confusing. I didn't know if people were addressing me or saying "What?".

Very clever ... Ludicrist ... you got me on that one ... you dog, you!


Oh I see, actually I kinda thought what? was kinda clever. :)

[snowdog]

RELIGION Should NOT be "used" by OUR GOVERNMENT

Words from a REAL representative of Jesus, who READS & quotes the bible:
Pat Robertson................ :rolleyes:

Pat just LOVES humanity.............. :D

From the NY Times:

"But Mr. Robertson upset many Israelis by suggesting Mr. Sharon's devastating stroke last Wednesday was divine punishment for pulling Israel out of Gaza last summer.

"God considers this land to be his," Mr. Robertson said Thursday on his television program, "The 700 Club."
"For any prime minister of Israel who decides he will carve it up and give it away, God said, 'No, this is mine.' "

"I would say woe unto any prime minister of Israel who takes a similar course," Mr. Robertson added."


ANOTHER "religious" Christian........................Who "talks" to God AND receives "the word" ...................from God!

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/12/international/middleeast/12mideast.html?th&emc=th

and then there is The Mayor of New Orleans, with his "god's wrath thing.
but thats OK right cause you agree with it!

[MAGI]

WHO'S "YOU"?

I believe hurricanes are more forcefull because of "GLOBAL WARMING"

[littlebigman]

sd,
iv noticed that u now ignore me :confused:

u still havent responded 2 my last couple of notes 2 u and
u seem 2 stay way clear of anythin i hav recently posted...

now im sure ur pat response will b that u havent the time 2 respond 2 my giberish, but u and i both know how far from truth that statement would really b dont we sd...

i know my insite n2 the reality u hide from frightens u but there s nutn 2 fear here sd, im here 2 sok u up wit da unconditional luv that
s inherent n all of us wether we choose it or not...

jeezUS luvz u sd, i hav an inside source dat tellz me that even though u will perrish from this life from ur false reality, ur spark s eternal and will hav 4ever 2 cum bak and get it right...

god could never b whole witout the peace' of the puzzle that s ur spark...

when u cum 2 understand what? i hav told u here, u will finaly b free n the oneness that u naturaly r with everythin and n there u will find me, jeezUS...and i can wait 4 eternaty if need b, what? the hell' else hav i gotz 2 do ;) :p

[snowdog]

Ummm no, LBM. I am not ignoring you, I told you that If you want to make
a comment to me negative or positive........that I would only read it and/or
respond when you use English. not the gibberish that you think is cool.
When I attempt to read it I waste time trying to figure out what hell your
saying. That may work good in your circle of friends. And your of course,
free to butcher the English language anytime you want. But don't expect
me to respond to it. I hope again, that clears that up.

[littlebigman]

Ummm no, LBM. I am not ignoring you, I told you that If you want to make
a comment to me negative or positive........that I would only read it and/or
respond when you use English. not the gibberish that you think is cool.
When I attempt to read it I waste time trying to figure out what hell your
saying. That may work good in your circle of friends. And your of course,
free to butcher the English language anytime you want. But don't expect
me to respond to it. I hope again, that clears that up.

sweeti if u dont hav time 4 me then u dont hav time 4 luv and n so hav proven the truth n the post that u respond 2 with the quote above...

do u still not know me sd? just try and guess who'
(No time left for you) On my way to better things
(No time left for you) I found myself some wings
(No time left for you) Distant roads are callin' me
(No time left for you) Da-un-da-un-da-un-da-un-da

No time for a summer friend
No time for the love you send
Seasons change and so did I
You need not wonder why
You need not wonder why
There's no time left for you
No time left for you

(No time left for you) On my way to better things
(No time left for you) I found myself some wings
(No time left for you) Distant roads are callin' me
(No time left for you) Day-un-day-un-day-un-day-un-day

No time for a gentle rain
No time for my watch and chain
No time for revolving doors
No time for the killin' floor
No time for the killin' floor
There's no time left for you
No time left for you

No time for a summer friend
No time for the love you send
Seasons change and so did I
You need not wonder why
You need not wonder why
There's no time left for you
No time left for you

No time, no time, no time, no time
No time, no time, no time, no time
I got, got, got, got no time
I got, got, got, got no time
I got, got, got, got no time
No-no-no, no-no-no, no time
No-no-no, no-no-no, no time
I got, got, got, got no time
No-no-no, no-no-no, no-no-no,
no-no-no, no-no-no, no-no-no, no time
I got no time, got no time, got no time, got no time, got no time

:eek:

[snowdog]

ummm so I guess, Jesus wouldn't like Canada right about now? :)

[Jane of Arc]

ummm so I guess, Jesus wouldn't like Canada right about now? :)He defintely would. Canada is a peaceful nation that doesn't declare war on unarmed nations killing thousands - Canada takes care of the sick with national health care - women have the respect of the government which doesn't interfere with her personal rights - and gay people can get married! Oh Canada!!!

[snowdog]

He defintely would. Canada is a peaceful nation that doesn't declare war on unarmed nations killing thousands - Canada takes care of the sick with national health care - women have the respect of the government which doesn't interfere with her personal rights - and gay people can get married! Oh Canada!!!


Please Jane, help me with that one, what unarmed nation did we (the US) declare War on?

[littlebigman]

He defintely would. Canada is a peaceful nation that doesn't declare war on unarmed nations killing thousands - Canada takes care of the sick with national health care - women have the respect of the government which doesn't interfere with her personal rights - and gay people can get married! Oh Canada!!!
and more importantly jw, i thin ohcanada also gave us burton cummings which
led 2 all the great somz of peace by guess who?
ohsd what? was ur big point wit dat anyhoot?
my point iz that jeezus would not b do'n a preacher show on tv ask'n 4 the meen green$ and he would b less unhappy wit da ohcanada than da ohshiteheadz n da usa :protest:
eternaly urz:jumpjoy: ,
lbm
:toast:

[Jane of Arc]

Please Jane, help me with that one, what unarmed nation did we (the US) declare War on?The largest, most technologically advanced, most powerful military the world has ever known attacked and crushed an unarmed nation called Iraq. It was called "Shock and Awe". They couldn't fight back. They couldn't defend themselves. Their standing army was a joke. Their 'weapons' were a joke. Years of US sanctions had crippled their economy. It was pathetic. A travesty. And thousands of innocent people died.

And to make matters worse ... Iraq never, never, never was a threat to this country! Iraq never, never, never attacked this country! And thousands of their people died???? Why????

And Osama Bin Laden is free? Why? Please tell me why?




It's the oil, stupid.:rolleyes:

[JamesP]

Over 1 quarter million 2-ton bombs were dropped on Iraqi cities in the initial campaign.

A quarter million... 250,000 bombs, each weighing 2000 lbs.

No bombs were dropped on American cities. Gratefully, we lost just a handful of American soldiers in the invasion.

Iraqi losses, including civilians: Not available. We changed our official policy to: "we don't count casualties" after the invasion.
The number, though, will be in the vicinity of 100,000 when the truth is finally told to Americans (most of the rest of the world already knows).

Was it a "war"?
If a grown man beats a 7 year old to death, is it a "fight"?

We should be proud of our military and deeply, deeply ashamed of our leaders and of ourselves.

[snowdog]

The largest, most technologically advanced, most powerful military the world has ever known attacked and crushed an unarmed nation called Iraq. It was called "Shock and Awe". They couldn't fight back. They couldn't defend themselves. Their standing army was a joke. Their 'weapons' were a joke. Years of US sanctions had crippled their economy. It was pathetic. A travesty. And thousands of innocent people died.

And to make matters worse ... Iraq never, never, never was a threat to this country! Iraq never, never, never attacked this country! And thousands of their people died???? Why????

And Osama Bin Laden is free? Why? Please tell me why?


It's the oil, stupid.:rolleyes:

again I will ask you Jane. please tell me what unarmed country did we Declare war on? I think 2,238 dead military family members would beg to
differ about Iraq being unarmed. I don't think the thousands dead, and the 10's of thousands wounded, were the result of Slingshots, or Spears.

I kinda get the feeling that the WMD issue isn't quite over yet. who is that former Iraqi general that is now talking about Saddam sending WMD's over to
Syria? just before the UN (idiots) showed up? did ya hear about that?
took the innards outta passenger planes, sent the WMDs under the guise that
Iraq was sending Syria relief supplies. I know I know it doesn't fit in what
you have been programmed to believe by the Dems. but what if its true?
LOL, the Democrats are gonna have splaining to do. GWB would have made
fools of the Dems .....AGAIN.

[Jane of Arc]

Why the US is Justified to Fight the Iraq War

I remember the onimous, black day that the terrifyingly powerful military of Iraq attacked the United States. Bush had been warned repeatedly to disarm his weapons of mass destruction ... but he said, "No, these are MY bombs!" And even though the whole world protested, "No this is illegal! This is not in the Geneva Convention! This is not sanctioned by the UN! This is unjustifiable aggression!" the mighty Iraq said the United States had run out of time and they attacked. And they bombed us with brutal and relentless authority for days as the world stood by and watched in helpless horror. It is now known that over 100,000 Americans were killed. Their mighty stealth bombers destroyed American city after American city. They attacked Washington in a Blitzkrieg that turned night into day. And Iraq's enormous warships were parked in our harbors ready to invade and take over America. Yes, the majority of Americans wanted to get rid of Bush, but not like this!

After that we had no choice but to go to war with Iraq. The United States had to protect itself and it's people.

[littlebigman]

Over 1 quarter million 2-ton bombs were dropped on Iraqi cities in the initial campaign.

A quarter million... 250,000 bombs, each weighing 2000 lbs.

No bombs were dropped on American cities. Gratefully, we lost just a handful of American soldiers in the invasion.

Iraqi losses, including civilians: Not available. We changed our official policy to: "we don't count casualties" after the invasion.
The number, though, will be in the vicinity of 100,000 when the truth is finally told to Americans (most of the rest of the world already knows).

Was it a "war"?
If a grown man beats a 7 year old to death, is it a "fight"?

We should be proud of our military and deeply, deeply ashamed of our leaders and of ourselves.

"We should be proud of our military"

eh this iz sarcasm right?

if not then i must whole heartedly disagree!

every1 has choises... yes i am ashamed of myself and of u and of our 'leaders', but i can say without a doubt that i am most ashamed of our troops, the 1s who it all counts on 2 carry out the atrocities... i will never understand how good pps cant c that the troops r the worst of all... they r more 2 blame then us or our leaders...
bak n the nam they had a name 4 these sellouts 2 hate, it was BABYKILLERS!!! remember sd..?
yes all r the victims of war, even the troops, but dont please dont feed us this popular politicaly correct bull shite that r troops r a thing 2 b proud of...it truly makes me puke...
and dont try 2 tell me that i dont know any troopz... my god, i know proly more of them personaly than u do or ever will...
god ur post pisses me off real bad babykiller luvr! :confused:

[littlebigman]

james i can giv u endless giant peach examples of y what u say bout da troopz iz sooooooooooooooo wrong, but here iz an old and verified 1 that even sd must step n his own poop over...

"On the morning of March 16, 1968, army warrant officer Hugh Thompson, began what he thought would be another routine mission in Vietnam. He buzzed his scout helicopter low over the jungle in search of Viet Cong soldiers. It was a clear day, and all was quiet. But when Thompson swung his chopper over the tiny village of My Lai, he saw US soldiers savagely beating and firing on Vietnamese civilians. Thompson and his two-man crew watched in disbelief as soldiers murdered women and children who had been pushed into an irrigation ditch. Other GIs set huts ablaze with hand grenades and Zippo lighters. There wasn't an enemy soldier in sight."

'pride' cumz b4 the fall jp... itz a deadly sin jp... i thought every1 knew that..?
i thin we can 4 a moment feel a lilgood bout hugh and his hughy crew and the very few good men like'm...
whatya thin sd..?
r u 'proud' of ur boyz and girlz out explorin all the deepest places of hate and fear making on an open chek signed by u..?
do u smile with 'pride' when they torcher and kill 4 u..?
jeezus dona play like dat sd, and jeezus aint'a 'proud' of nut'n, least of all any1s troopz...
infact u all make me cry,
b u on the right or on the left, u make jeezus cum bak 2 die... agin... my friendz...

[littlebigman]

im sory jp but uv really got my sore spotz bleed'n 2day...
did i ever tell ya bout the time those troopz burried my heart at wounded knee jp..?
it was nut'n 2 b proud of sweeti, it should hav never happend agin, yet it happend agin and agin and agin, y, bcuz it happend b4 the bloody knee time and timez b4 and it was ok 2 b 'proud' and superior...
they got me agin dat time n my lai, burried my heart agin jp...
3/4 of the missionz u pay 4 burry my heart jp...
did u watch as ur $ paid 4 ur 'proud' boyz 2 burry me n fallujah..?
how can u b 'proud' of troopz jp..?

[snowdog]

Umm Jane..... for the third time. will please tell me what "unarmed" country
did the US attack?

17 UN Violations, Saddamn threatened on several occasions to us more WMDs

John Kerry
Billiary Clinton
Rep Murtha
The Germans
The French
dozens of Democrats

did they not say that Saddamn was a threat to Us Security. again.... for the
Dems to keep saying that GWB "fooled" them is quite old now adays.

Now lets talk about the Oil for Food scandels within the Un and Iraq.

How bout a former Iraqi Air Force leader, telling us that Sadamn had his
WMDs flown to Syria just prior to the inspectors arrival? Now... I realize
that that is "all conservative propaganda" in YOUR OPINION. but...what
if in actuality it is FACT? wow your whole arguement is diminished.

[Jane of Arc]

I will answer your question for the last time snowdog. This is getting tedious. But then I want you to answer a question for me. We attacked the small, unarmed, pathetically weak country called Iraq.

News Bulletin: We found NO weapons of mass destruction. Bush acknowledged that we found NO weapons of mass destruction.

That means we killed 100,000 innocent Iraqi citizens for no valid reason. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1338749,00.html



Do you care that 100,000 innocent Iraqi people are dead for no reason at all?

[littlebigman]

Umm Jane..... for the third time. will please tell me what "unarmed" country
did the US attack?



eh ok dik head... howz about those scary grenadians the 'great chimpanzee comunicator' bonzo took care of...
big time resistance there 4 sure u dik head... learn sum history b4 u start piss'n on urself next time...:rolleyes: :p

[FDRfollower]

Theology

There is a heaven, for ever, day by day,
The upward longing of my soul doth tell me so.
There is a hell, I'm quite as sure; for pray,
If there were not, where would my neighbors go?

Paul L. Dunbar :sunny:

[Jane of Arc]

Don't ever leave this forum, ya' hear FDR!!! :) I enthusiastically look forward to your gems on a daily basis. :thumbup:

[snowdog]

Jane, you don't think that the US troops were fired upon back in Mar 02?
or today. You haven't heard of the cache of missiles found hidden through
out Iraq! several of them.

Does it bother me that 100,000 Iraqi citizens are dead. Hell yea it does
I hate to see suicide bombers blow them selves up taking out 3-50 innocent
Iraqi'S. two to three times a week .It angered me when I was over there that the "brave Iraqi" soldiers
would take residence in a persons home and shoot at us. Did that happen
to you when you were over there?

[Jane of Arc]

Hi snowdog ... how is my furry friend? We haven't debated in quite a while ... I know, I know you've been busy defending Regressive policy in many posts here. Progressives On Line is growing fast, so hopefully, you'll have some more Regressives on board to help you out. So, I'll make this very simple for you because I know you're a busy man. It just requires a simple yes or no answer.

Did Iraq ever attack the United States of America?

[Jane of Arc]

Come on snowdog ... put those paws up .... come on ... come on ... you can do it ... just answer one little teeny-weeny question 'yes' or 'no':

Did Iraq ever attack the United States of America?

[snowdog]

Hi Jane.

been busy with ill health in hospital. please read the new thread I just
put out. what are we doing in IRAQ? I honestly don't know anymore.
but yes, we need to get the hell out as soon as possible! the world is
hating the US because of a failed, poor agenda of our current administration.

[wimzkl]

There can be no doubt that love is one of the human kind’s basic instincts, and Jesus taught us it should transcend all other values. Too often in our adulthood, we are caught up in ideas that we regard as the absolute truth. We learn from predecessors their beliefs and become prejudiced in those beliefs. Such prejudiced knowledge gets in the way of our instinct to love and can impugn our liberties. Prejudiced knowledge is that, regardless of the subject, believed to be the absolute truth. Unfortunately, prejudiced knowledge blocks out opposing arguments.

This is not the real America and this is not a war on terror. Wars are openly fought. Nor can there be a war on terror since terror is no more than a word describing a heightened fear. The expression “war on terror” is a slogan, a political device meant to keep the populace in an excited fear.

Adolph Hitler used such slogans effectively: “you must harp on these slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand by your slogan.” Our conservative administration uses the slogan “war on terror” to maintain their control. Past administrations have used “war on drugs” and “war on crime” in the same way.

Terror as an extreme political tool is pervasive in history. The First World War was precipitated when Gavrilo Princip assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand. About 30 years ago, the Baader-Meinhof Gang in Germany and the Red Brigades of Italy terrorized those nations. We had our Oklahoma City bombing and the Olympics bombing in Atlanta. There is no known effective way to combat terrorists other than the way the Italians and Germans dealt with their terrorists. They hunted them down and brought them to justice.

Hitler used an act of terrorism to justify suspension of civil liberties and fomented a hysterical hatred of Jews and communists. His rhetoric was not aimed at Germany’s enemies. It was aimed at his own people to solidify his political position. In the event of a terrorist atomic attack on an American city, is it possible that Marshall Law could be declared? Could Bush use the “war on terror” slogan to justify ending our individual liberties? Would our populace welcome it as the Germans welcomed Hitler?

Terrorism will last as long as there is prejudiced knowledge and significant inequities in the world. If you would fight a war on terror, these must be your targets and your weapons must be education and opportunity. Any traditions, religions, institutions and social classes that impede education and opportunity jeopardize the Separation of Powers and individual liberty.

Many must have a troubled feeling that we acted too quickly in Iraq based on incomplete and misleading information. Many have a further feeling that if we had expended those resources and that manpower to successfully chase down Bin Laden and his gang, we would have not sacrificed our prominence in the eyes of the world. Saddam would have continued his brutal ways, but the Iraqis probably would have incurred far fewer casualties and the area would not be so unstable. Perhaps we would not have lost so many of our own finest youth.

Most important, still, the world would know that we will not tolerate terrorism; that we will go to any lengths to punish the terrorists. We will lunch our fastest fleet, brave any storm and hunt them down. Once they know there is no safe haven, they will think more than twice about attacking us. Isn’t that really what we need to accomplish?

There is no doubt in my mind that we should get out of Iraq and go get Bin Ladin.

[jrw71470]

As I remember it, Jesus actually feed the poor, he didn't say 'get a job'
As I remember it, Jesus asked the rich to give away there riches and follow him, he didn't say "rob from the poor and get what you can.'
As I remember it, Jesus showed tolerance to the Sameritans (hey, don't they teach people how to spell in school any more?) and other hated minorities, and God forbid, he actually included tax collectors in his circle.
I think that the religious right is in bed so much with there rich republican buddies that they have forgotten that Jesus actually advocated social responsiblity and tolerance.
And as for african americans leaving the democratic party, as on black minister put it 'Gay marriage is the last thing that runs through my mind when I am in the polling booth.' Thats Because the religious right is morally (if not financially) bankrupt, much like the ruling and religious leaders in anchent Palistine. Until the religious right stops alligning with the party that has waged war against the poor and middle class for the last 20 years(the people Jesus reached out to ) then they will never have the african american vote. And yes, for his time, Jesus was a libreal.

[FDRfollower]

Not too bad an observation JRW. All you have to do now, is find 12 followers and start converting all these pretend "christians". :angel: