[Jane of Arc]

Please forgive me for the repetition, but this issue really, really, really bothers me.

I often wonder why Republicans simply don't care that 100,000 Iraqi civilians - half of them women and children - have died in Iraq since the invasion, mostly as a result of airstrikes by US forces. And that's not even counting the thousands we killed in Afghanistan.

When you bring it up they change the subject ... "ah what about the Twin Towers" (Iraqi people had nothing to do with that) ... "ah what about the Cole!" (Iraqi people had nothing to do with that) ... "ah what about Saddam, he killed and tortured his own people!" (not like this he didn't) "ah what about the troops ... don't you care they're being killed by insurgents!" (?) And then there's the "ahhh ... of course I care but that's the cost of freedom!"

No that's the cost of an imperial, amoral, illegal war by a group of NeoCon thugs and their supporters.

I lie awake at night and think of these poor people and I think of the poor soldiers and I say for what George Bush? For what!

And the Republicans just don't seem to care. They simply don't seem to care.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1338749,00.html

[snowdog]

Yea it sucks lets not forget that just Yesterday 70 more Iraqi civilians
were blown apart by a suicide Bomber! Seems to me the voter turnout
was pretty good. and that there were millions that voted, Doesn't that
say something to you all that the Iraq's want a democracy?

Turn your anger towards the SOB's that are killing our troops and the
innocent Iraqi civilians.

[Jane of Arc]

Yea it sucks lets not forget that just Yesterday 70 more Iraqi civilians
were blown apart by a suicide Bomber! Seems to me the voter turnout
was pretty good. and that there were millions that voted, Doesn't that
say something to you all that the Iraq's want a democracy?

Turn your anger towards the SOB's that are killing our troops and the
innocent Iraqi civilians.

Snowdog~ I know, I know ... all the death sucks! But listen ... please go to my post "A Question on Oil for Thinking People to Debate" and you'll understand better what all this death and fighting and terrorism is all related to ... oil. When you put oil into the equation everything makes sense.

Get a cup of coffee and get comfortable. You'll have to have a free 34 min. to listen to an interview with a scientist who was commissioned to do a study on peak oil by The U.S. Dept. of Energy for the Bush Administration. You'll love it ... he's a conservative. (As I am on this issue.) (Still a liberal progresssive when it comes to peace.)

Thanks snowdog ... and you will thank me too! :)

[snowdog]

I haven't read all of the story, but your trying to tell me that our need of
oil, is the reason a person of the muslim faith, is blowing up other muslims
because of the US's greed for oil?

[Jane of Arc]

I haven't read all of the story, but your trying to tell me that our need of
oil, is the reason a person of the muslim faith, is blowing up other muslims
because of the US's greed for oil?

snowdog~ please, please, please listen to this. Click "listen now" at the bottom of the page:

http://globalpublicmedia.com/interviews/615

[Jane of Arc]

A Formula for Slaughter: The American Rules of Engagement from the Air
By Michael Schwartz
TomDispatch.com

Tuesday 10 January 2006

A little over a year ago, a group of Johns Hopkins researchers reported that about 100,000 Iraqi civilians had died as a result of the Iraq war during its first 14 months, with about 60,000 of the deaths directly attributable to military violence by the U.S. and its allies. The study, published in The Lancet, the highly respected British medical journal, applied the same rigorous, scientifically validated methods that the Hopkins researchers had used in estimating that 1.7 million people had died in the Congo in 2000. Though the Congo study had won the praise of the Bush and Blair administrations and had become the foundation for UN Security Council and State Department actions, this study was quickly declared invalid by the U.S. government and by supporters of the war.

This dismissal was hardly surprising, but after a brief flurry of protest, even the antiwar movement (with a number of notable exceptions) has largely ignored the ongoing carnage that the study identified.

Read the rest of the article here ... looks like we are going to increase the slaughter:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/011106K.shtml

[FDRfollower]

Hey Jane D'arc, according to how many people are going through the morgues in Iraq, the number of deaths are up to 300,000, roughly :mad:

[Jane of Arc]

That seems steep? Where do you get 300,000 from?

[FDRfollower]

Jane of Arc That seems steep? Where do you get 300,000 from?

The number is just the amount counted from the number of bodies going through morgues in Iraq, not the "official" number given by the US. If I look, I can find out who did the research. Are you actually surprised by the number?

[sdboreel]

First of all we will never know the truth of how many casulaties were caused by US airstrikes. I believe just like in Lebanon, care was taken to warn people and to not hit civilian targets. Remember 9/11 and this latest plane terror plot? It is not like they try to avoid hurting civilians. Second, once again you blame the US for the casualties, but you don't blame or condemn the insurgent terrorists who use the civilians as human shields. We have to take out the enemy and their weapons. What are we supposed to do when they put them in schools, hospitals, mosques and the like?

By the way Jane, yes oil has a lot to do with it. We can either defend Iraq and give them an economy and a way to rebuild through their oil production, or we can cut and run like the left wants us to do and let Iran come in and control it. What would you like to happen?

P.S. Wasn't Jane of Arc psychotic?

[FDRfollower]

First of all we will never know the truth of how many casulaties were caused by US airstrikes. I believe just like in Lebanon, care was taken to warn people and to not hit civilian targets. Remember 9/11 and this latest plane terror plot? It is not like they try to avoid hurting civilians. Second, once again you blame the US for the casualties, but you don't blame or condemn the insurgent terrorists who use the civilians as human shields. We have to take out the enemy and their weapons. What are we supposed to do when they put them in schools, hospitals, mosques and the like?

By the way Jane, yes oil has a lot to do with it. We can either defend Iraq and give them an economy and a way to rebuild through their oil production, or we can cut and run like the left wants us to do and let Iran come in and control it. What would you like to happen?

P.S. Wasn't Jane of Arc psychotic?

No, Jane D'arc is not psychotic. She's reacting like a normal human should, when an out of control government decides to commit unspeakable acts against a people who have done no harm to us.

Yes, let Iran go in and stabilize the situation, along with Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and any of the neighboring countries that want to help prevent the civil war from spreading all over the region. But for god sake, get the US troops OUT!
We sure don't have the capability to defend them anyway, and if the administration can't rebuild New Orleans, it sure hasn't rebuilt Iraq.

Yes, 9/11. Our Reichtag Fire. This new "attempted terrorist act" ha! Propaganda to distract everyone. :bs:

[JamesP]

First of all we will never know the truth of how many casulaties were caused by US airstrikes.

Over and over again, defenders of the Bush administration try to justify the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians.
Sometimes they use expressions like "we will never know the truth of how many casualties were caused by US air strikes". As though the fact that the US policy in Iraq is not to count casualties makes it all too fuzzy for them to understand.

Then, they say things like:
It is not like they try to avoid hurting civilians. Second, once again you blame the US for the casualties, but you don't blame or condemn the insurgent terrorists who use the civilians as human shields.

Basically, "the terrorists do it too" is the cry of the Bush apologists.

Of course, we (progressives) blame the insurgents & terrorists for their hideous acts. They are indefensible. But we don't rationalize away the heinous acts undertaken on our behalf by the Bush administration either.
We are not terrorists. We do not sanction violence against civilians. We are not at peace with the idea that we are now like them. We believe in accountability and justice and reject blind tribalism that justifies everything our side does. And we know that every wrong committed by our side feeds the world's hatred of us and makes us less safe.

or we can cut and run like the left wants us to do and let Iran come in and control it. What would you like to happen?

Iran has been the beneficiary to-date of all of the blunders of the Bush administration. They now have more influence in Iraq and the the middle-east than ever before and their support in the Arab world grows as hatred for us increases.

Our continued presence in Iraq simply wastes American lives and dollars.
The lives are those of the lower & middle class.
The dollars go into the pockets of the richest of the rich "friends of the Bush administration".
and oil prices and oil company profits are at record highs.
Must be just a coincidence that most of the Bush administration are from the oil industry.
Fool me once.....

[FDRfollower]

Story in the British Medical Journal "The Lancet"

Study estimates 655 000 excess Iraqi deaths since start of war
An estimated 655 000 more Iraqis have died as a consequence of the March 2003 military invasion of Iraq than would have been expected in a non-conflict situation, according to an Article. There is also an accompanying Comment by Richard Horton

Linky (http://www.thelancet.com/)

What a sad day for the Iraqi people and the troops who have to participate in the destruction of an age-old society for a bunch of old fascists. :(

[-V-]

the range was reported at 400 to 900 thousand, with 655 being the most likely figure.

Thanks for taking the time to find the prior thread on the topic instead of starting a new one FDR.:thumbup:

[jrw71470]

I wonder what the Bush Adm. has to say about 'the culture of life' now. That is just sickening to realize so many men, women, and children have died because of a war that did not have to happen. What kind of future do the children in Iraq have? How many more human beings are going to die before this human tragity ends? I also worry about not only the physical toll on the 18, 19 20 year olds we are sending to Iraq, but also the mental toll on them as well. I am just sick about this whole thing.

[JamesP]

The numbers with respect to casualties have been completely unreal up to now. We dropped over a quarter million 2 tons bombs in the early days of Bush's invasion of Iraq. The devestation, casualties and unspeakable suffering have continued unabated.

Who knows if this new number is accurate. It's a pretty good clue that there is something dreadful going on when the administration decides it "doesn't count casualties" (the policy declared in Iraq shortly after the invasion).

I recognized it early as the "Hiroshima & Nagasaki" of our era. So much blood on the hands of those who supported the Bush administration - even after the lies and misdeeds of the 1st term were known. They'll need to open up a new wing in hell to make room for all of the "good christians" in America who made this possible....

There is only some tiny and awful consolation in that Iraq will go down in history as one of the largest foreign policy debacles in American history and a dark stain on America and all humanity.

As such, maybe it will never happen again and America can return to goodness again in time.... a benevolent people governed wisely and morally. We can only hope.

[MAGI]

The numbers with respect to casualties have been completely unreal up to now. We dropped over a quarter million 2 tons bombs in the early days of Bush's invasion of Iraq. The devestation, casualties and unspeakable suffering have continued unabated.

Who knows if this new number is accurate. It's a pretty good clue that there is something dreadful going on when the administration decides it "doesn't count casualties" (the policy declared in Iraq shortly after the invasion).

I recognized it early as the "Hiroshima & Nagasaki" of our era. So much blood on the hands of those who supported the Bush administration - even after the lies and misdeeds of the 1st term were known. They'll need to open up a new wing in hell to make room for all of the "good christians" in America who made this possible....

There is only some tiny and awful consolation in that Iraq will go down in history as one of the largest foreign policy debacles in American history and a dark stain on America and all humanity.

As such, maybe it will never happen again and America can return to goodness again in time.... a benevolent people governed wisely and morally. We can only hope.



emphasis mine.

:toast:

[Lionhearted]

According to the British Medical Journal "The Lancet" a recent study estimates that if Iraq had not been invaded, some 650,000 humans would still be alive.

Summary
Background An excess mortality of nearly 100 000 deaths was reported in Iraq for the period March, 2003–September,
2004, attributed to the invasion of Iraq. Our aim was to update this estimate.
Methods Between May and July, 2006, we did a national cross-sectional cluster sample survey of mortality in Iraq.
50 clusters were randomly selected from 16 Governorates, with every cluster consisting of 40 households. Information
on deaths from these households was gathered.
Findings Three misattributed clusters were excluded from the final analysis; data from 1849 households that contained
12 801 individuals in 47 clusters was gathered. 1474 births and 629 deaths were reported during the observation
period. Pre-invasion mortality rates were 5·5 per 1000 people per year (95% CI 4·3–7·1), compared with 13·3 per
1000 people per year (10·9–16·1) in the 40 months post-invasion. We estimate that as of July, 2006, there have been
654 965 (392 979–942 636) excess Iraqi deaths as a consequence of the war, which corresponds to 2·5% of the
population in the study area. Of post-invasion deaths, 601 027 (426 369–793 663) were due to violence, the most
common cause being gunfire.
Interpretation The number of people dying in Iraq has continued to escalate. The proportion of deaths ascribed to
coalition forces has diminished in 2006, although the actual numbers have increased every year. Gunfire remains the
most common cause of death, although deaths from car bombing have increased.

Read the entire report here (http://www.thelancet.com/webfiles/images/journals/lancet/s0140673606694919.pdf)

[Lionhearted]

I am an idiot. I did not realize the Lancet report had already been posted and I started a new thread. My apologies.