[MAGI]

-V- would you and/or any Green please define Green Party.

If it is a party of people wanting to preserve Earth ........clean water, air, uncontaminated soil, food.............that is caring of humanity, that's my feelings..............

What am I missing to think of myself as a prospective member of The Green Party?

[haus]

Here are a couple of introductions to the Green Party:


10 Key Values of the Green Party (http://www.gp.org/tenkey.shtml)
Recent Position Statements (http://www.gp.org/position.shtml)


Here's a neat quiz that matches you against (2004?) party platforms: http://www.ontheissues.org/quizeng/xPartyMatch/quiz_main.asp?Page=1&Clear=Y

There's been a great deal of effort since 2000 to invite the Green Party into the Democratic Party to become a faction much like the "Moral Majority" became a faction of the Republican Party. It's a very, very, very messy situation. There have been successes and failures. I think the 2005 Progressive Democrats of America convention had a notable success, but I can't put my finger on the reference.

[MAGI]

Thanks haus,

Well, I'm greener than democrat............I personally would further qualify the quiz though, for a clearer view......................

So presently I'm a green liberal democrat ;)

[haus]

Welcome to the club :)

[-V-]

Magi, congrats on becoming a member of POL Congress as of your 400th post, this thread. You've earned it with your thoughtful contributions to this forum.

it is a party of people wanting to preserve Earth ........clean water, air, uncontaminated soil, food.............that is caring of humanity

yes, and they are anti-war and protective of animals as well. The Greens are left of the DNC. I voted for Gore and Kerry and campaigned for the DNC, however my heart & mind are most closely aligned with the Greens. Nader had terrific ideas but can be a hard-headed fool. Kucinich is/was the right progressive candidate for the job but is, unfortunately, ahead of his time. :D

[sweetpea]

Questions about Green beleifs #1.

1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY
Every human being deserves a say in the decisions that affect their lives and not be subject to the will of another. Therefore, we will work to increase public participation at every level of government and to ensure that our public representatives are fully accountable to the people who elect them. We will also work to create new types of political organizations which expand the process of participatory democracy by directly including citizens in the decision-making process.
Hear Hear.
Just remember though, not everyone believes as stridently in liberalism. Be careful what you ask for. The Christian Coalition is a grassroots org.

2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY
All persons should have the rights and opportunity to benefit equally from the resources afforded us by society and the environment. We must consciously confront in ourselves, our organizations, and society at large, barriers such as racism and class oppression, sexism and homophobia, ageism and disability, which act to deny fair treatment and equal justice under the law.
--Fine. But start stretching this to mean equal outomes for everyone regardless of free will decisions then you will lose all credibility.

3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM
Human societies must operate with the understanding that we are part of nature, not separate from nature. We must maintain an ecological balance and live within the ecological and resource limits of our communities and our planet. We support a sustainable society which utilizes resources in such a way that future generations will benefit and not suffer from the practices of our generation. To this end we must practice agriculture which replenishes the soil; move to an energy efficient economy; and live in ways that respect the integrity of natural systems.
Live within the ecological and resource limits of our communities? Really? Does that mean turn off worldwide, nationwide, regionwide distribution of goods and services. Think about what you are espousing. Let's say we defined a community as a 20 square mile area in the Midwest....are your green beleifs going to allow fresh fruits to be deliverd to this community?

4. NON-VIOLENCE
It is essential that we develop effective alternatives to society’s current patterns of violence. We will work to demilitarize, and eliminate weapons of mass destruction, without being naive about the intentions of other governments. We recognize the need for self-defense and the defense of others who are in helpless situations. We promote non-violent methods to oppose practices and policies with which we disagree, and will guide our actions toward lasting personal, community and global peace.
We can start by not glorifying the likes of Tookie Williams.
Who are yopu going to demilitarize first?
Sounds like you are a fan of Ronald Reagan....he eliminated WMD in USSR and the US and demilitarized the USSR to the point of being on the ash heap of history.
I take it you don't agree with peae through superior firepower. What would you do about Islamic fundamentalism and Islamic Jihad? They want you dead too.
Hint - Sweet little anecdotes about being one with the earth isn't going to change their minds.


5. DECENTRALIZATION
Centralization of wealth and power contributes to social and economic injustice, environmental destruction, and militarization. Therefore, we support a restructuring of social, political and economic institutions away from a system which is controlled by and mostly benefits the powerful few, to a democratic, less bureaucratic system. Decision-making should, as much as possible, remain at the individual and local level, while assuring that civil rights are protected for all citizens.
Sounds like you are for states rights and home rule in politics. I happen to agree. Just don't complain when a state or a town passes legislation that you disagree with and it gains a foothold nationally.....kinda like school choice.

[sweetpea]

Questions about green beliefs #2.

6. COMMUNITY-BASED ECONOMICS AND ECONOMIC JUSTICE
We recognize it is essential to create a vibrant and sustainable economic system, one that can create jobs and provide a decent standard of living for all people while maintaining a healthy ecological balance. A successful economic system will offer meaningful work with dignity, while paying a “living wage” which reflects the real value of a person’s work.
Who is going to decide what a living wage is? A centralized govt. bureacracy (see #5.), the market, you?
I am soooo waiting on your reply.

Local communities must look to economic development that assures protection of the environment and workers’ rights; broad citizen participation in planning; and enhancement of our “quality of life.” We support independently owned and operated companies which are socially responsible, as well as co-operatives and public enterprises that distribute resources and control to more people through democratic participation.
What does this mean, besides you hate Wal-Mart.
again, soooo looking forward to your reply.

7. FEMINISM AND GENDER EQUITY
We have inherited a social system based on male domination of politics and economics. We call for the replacement of the cultural ethics of domination and control with more cooperative ways of interacting that respect differences of opinion and gender. Human values such as equity between the sexes, interpersonal responsibility, and honesty must be developed with moral conscience. We should remember that the process that determines our decisions and actions is just as important as achieving the outcome we want.
More babble.
Last I checked women are just as free as men in the US.
Please.
If/when you answer don't forget the part about respecting the differences between the genders.



8. RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY
We believe it is important to value cultural, ethnic, racial, sexual, religious and spiritual diversity, and to promote the development of respectful relationships across these lines.

We believe that the many diverse elements of society should be reflected in our organizations and decision-making bodies, and we support the leadership of people who have been traditionally closed out of leadership roles. We acknowledge and encourage respect for other life forms than our own and the preservation of biodiversity.
Does this mean quotas? Yes or no.
Do ou include ( oh, I don't know) Christains, conservatives, two parent households as part of diversity?

9. PERSONAL AND GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY
We encourage individuals to act to improve their personal well-being and, at the same time, to enhance ecological balance and social harmony. We seek to join with people and organizations around the world to foster peace, economic justice, and the health of the planet.
Persaonal responsibility. Does this mean that people are responsible for their actions? i.e. commit a crime = go to jail.
Choose to drop out of high school and survive on minimum wage.
Choose to have children at 17 while unmaried and survive on welfare fro a lifetime.
Do those kinds of personal responsibility things count or just the touchy-feely ones?


10. FUTURE FOCUS AND SUSTAINABILITY
Our actions and policies should be motivated by long-term goals. We seek to protect valuable natural resources, safely disposing of or “unmaking” all waste we create, while developing a sustainable economics that does not depend on continual expansion for survival. We must counterbalance the drive for short-term profits by assuring that economic development, new technologies, and fiscal policies are responsible to future generations who will inherit the results of our actions.
ARe you espousing agrarian collectivism or not? These beleifs don't come out and say it, but there are many hints at it.
Would Social Security fall into one of these long term goals?

Ten Key Values from other state and local Greens.
There is no authoritative version of the Ten Key Values of the Greens. The Ten Key Values are guiding principles that are adapted and defined to fit each state and local chapter.

[sweetpea]

Does noone want to answer the questions?

[snowdog]

Mustard or Collard?

[sweetpea]

Mustard or Collard?

Shade of yellow I guess. Mustard.

[Jane of Arc]

Typical of right-wingers to mock people who actually DO something good for this planet, other than bomb it back to the Stone Age. The views of the Green Party would be so foreign to you ... it would be easier for you to learn Chinesse than attempt to understand, much less embrace, a holistic perspective of the world we all share.

[sweetpea]

Typical of right-wingers to mock people who actually DO something good for this planet, other than bomb it back to the Stone Age. The views of the Green Party would be so foreign to you ... it would be easier for you to learn Chinesse than attempt to understand, much less embrace, a holistic perspective of the world we all share.
----------

Typical of a liberal.

Legitamate questions posed and the response is empty. I asked a dozen or so honest and legitamate questiosn about greens and you cannot answer any of them. That says a lot about your so-called holistic perspective.

[Jane of Arc]

Here ya' go sweetpea. This should answer your questions about the "shades of yellow" people here:
http://www.gp.org/common_ground.shtml

[sweetpea]

Here ya' go sweetpea. This should answer your questions about the "shades of yellow" people here:
http://www.gp.org/common_ground.shtml

-----

Been there - Read that.

Questions still remain. I give credit for posting beleifs, but if a green cannot answer basic questions about their beleifs then what is the point of having said beliefs.

Seriously, my questiosn are not baited. They are honest.

Haus posted 10 key positiosn of the green party adn from that I have a dozen or so questions. Why cannot any of the greens on this forum answer them?

[-V-]

Haus posted 10 key positiosn of the green party adn from that I have a dozen or so questions. Why cannot any of the greens on this forum answer them?

sorry if i'm a little late to the party (pun intended -- my philosophy is green, my registered party is dem) but i've been busy outside hugging trees and inside upgrading this forum. i'd be delighted to add my own suggested answers to your dozen questions as soon as i can.

but until then, it suffices to say that the heart of the green party is in the right place and it is all of our responsibilities to begin at the heart of society's problems and work out the details from there to find real solutions.

One of the very, very, few issues where the regressive-right's heart is in the right place is abortion (though it may be more "reward in heaven" then true embyonic compassion). No one wants abortions, but sooo many considerations have to weighed before a workable solution is at hand (i.e. where do we draw the lines of compassion between the embryo and the mother/father or doctor being thrown in jail)

Why don't we start by your admitting that all ten goals/philosophies of the green party are admirable and in due time i/we will contemplate/present more specific answers to your questions.

after that we will work out the details of "the meaning of life".

[sweetpea]

Why don't we start by your admitting that all ten goals/philosophies of the green party are admirable and in due time i/we will contemplate/present more specific answers to your questions.

How about I respond one at a time.
1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY
Agreed.

2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY
Agreed.

3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM
Agreed on the surface. Getting a little twinge of eco-liberalism and agrarian collectivism here, though.

4. NON-VIOLENCE
Agreed on the surface. A lot of questions remain, though.

5. DECENTRALIZATION
Agreed on the surface. Pretty braod statement, though. Lot of questions remain.

6. COMMUNITY-BASED ECONOMICS AND ECONOMIC JUSTICE
This is hard to swallow due to the details. Too many questions remain.

7. FEMINISM AND GENDER EQUITY
Gender Equity is fine. Feminism as parcticed by the most recent group of far left .... not on your life.

8. RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY
Devil is in the details.

9. PERSONAL AND GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY
Depends. Global responsibility as defined by-V-pot dictators in the UN? Is it a two way street? ie. quit blaming the US fro all the worlds problems.

10. FUTURE FOCUS AND SUSTAINABILITY
More details. Sustainability as defined by whom?


The main point here is that just because your "heart is in the right place" doesn't mean a hill of beans when it comes time to actaully acting and implementing.

[MAGI]

Who are NOT the Greens .........might give a bit of added definition........for those seriosly seeking information about greens and other progressive minded folks ;)

"Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism"

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes.

Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

The above is a summery of the more detailed orignal article "Fascism Anyone?" first published in Spring 2003 edition of Free Inquiry"

[sweetpea]

Who are NOT the Greens .........might give a bit of added definition........for those seriosly seeking information about greens and other progressive minded folks ;)

"Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism"

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes.

Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

The above is a summery of the more detailed orignal article "Fascism Anyone?" first published in Spring 2003 edition of Free Inquiry"
---
Does this non-answer mean you cannot or will not answer the questions regarding who are the greens?

[MAGI]

MY opinion IS, YOU should attend a few Green Meetings IF YOU are REALLY INTERESTED! You may find some opinions differ ............and........you can present YOURS ..............Those meetings will welcome YOU instead of screening you and LOCKING you out!

Further I am MORE worried about OUR COUNTRY and REAL problems to bother with your divertive questions........because your past responses indicate YOU, pea, you are not OPEN to change

Who are NOT the Greens .........might give a bit of added definition........for those seriosly seeking information about greens and other progressive minded folks ;)

"Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism"

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes.

Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

The above is a summery of the more detailed orignal article "Fascism Anyone?" first published in Spring 2003 edition of Free Inquiry"[/QUOTE]

[sweetpea]

MY opinion IS, YOU should attend a few Green Meetings IF YOU are REALLY INTERESTED! You may find some opinions differ ............and........you can present YOURS ..............Those meetings will welcome YOU instead of screening you and LOCKING you out!

Further I am MORE worried about OUR COUNTRY and REAL problems to bother with your divertive questions........because your past responses indicate YOU, pea, you are not OPEN to change

Who are NOT the Greens .........might give a bit of added definition........for those seriosly seeking information about greens and other progressive minded folks ;)

"Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism"

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes.

Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

The above is a summery of the more detailed orignal article "Fascism Anyone?" first published in Spring 2003 edition of Free Inquiry"[/QUOTE]
--------

I guess i'll take this knee jerk non-answer as an indicator that you cannot answer.

Fair enough. You could have just said so.

[MAGI]

It is MY opinion I did answer

YOU just can't handle the TRUTH!

When are you going to a Green meeting pea? :p
Unlike those forums Regressive holds........YOU"LL be welcome

and get your answers from authorative Greens

[sweetpea]

It is MY opinion I did answer

YOU just can't handle the TRUTH!

When are you going to a Green meeting pea? :p
Unlike those forums Regressive holds........YOU"LL be welcome

and get your answers from authorative Greens
---

Newsflash Magi,

Having an opinion does not equate to answering questions.

Why bother going to a meeting....why don't you just answer?

[MAGI]

:D :D

It is my opinion the Greens have a GREAT CREED! I find your questions should be answered by the GREENS........which most likely will differ......... and you could see if any appreciate YOUR opinions..............

So are you REALLY interested? Call .......a Green meeting would accept you..............unlike YOUR IDOL'S closed meetings and forums.

And you'll have ALL the answers you seem to need. As for my opinion of you.....you'll NEVER accept anything....so I'll not waste any more time, but to KEEP posting YOUR Fascist creed, which we must fight, to get the USA (our country) back on track. :sunny:

[sweetpea]

:D :D

It is my opinion the Greens have a GREAT CREED! I find your questions should be answered by the GREENS........which most likely will differ......... and you could see if any appreciate YOUR opinions..............

So are you REALLY interested? Call .......a Green meeting would accept you..............unlike YOUR IDOL'S closed meetings and forums.

And you'll have ALL the answers you seem to need. As for my opinion of you.....you'll NEVER accept anything....so I'll not waste any more time, but to KEEP posting YOUR Fascist creed, which we must fight, to get the USA (our country) back on track. :sunny:

So. It's too bad. You keep tossing out ridiculous names. Refer to others idols, argue against strawmen, blah,blah, blah. But you cannot answer the honest questions posed.

I'll take it that you are one of two things: an emotional follower of a feel good, nebulus belief system that accomplishse little except making yourselves feel good OR an emotional follower of a belief system because it helps you validate your hatred of a temporary President.

Either way you not even attempting to answer some simple questions is very telling.

[MAGI]

MAGI:

MY opinion IS, YOU should attend a few Green Meetings IF YOU are REALLY INTERESTED! You may find some opinions differ ............and........you can present YOURS ..............Those meetings will welcome YOU instead of screening you and LOCKING you out!

Further I am MORE worried about OUR COUNTRY and REAL problems to bother with your divertive questions........because your past responses indicate YOU, pea/snowdog are not OPEN to change

Who are NOT the Greens .........might give a bit of added definition........for those seriosly seeking information about greens and other progressive minded folks

Contrasting the Green Characteristics to the Fascism Characteristics................MY OPINION IS.... I'll take the GREEN as it "stands" for the BEST for our country......no questions asked.......... as opposed to the fascist creed below!

Question for you.......Doesn't this look like OUR PRESENT system in
OUR U. S. of A.? Pretty much fits YOU.........

Your pretended interest is just too obviously a rethug ploy

"Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism"

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes.

Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

The above is a summery of the more detailed orignal article "Fascism Anyone?" first published in Spring 2003 edition of Free Inquiry"[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

[sweetpea]

Magi,

It's ashamed you cannot answer some honest, non-baiting questiosn about your own beleifs.

I'll just chalk up your non responses to what I stated earlier.

Have a nice day.

[MAGI]

MAGI:

MY opinion IS, YOU should attend a few Green Meetings IF YOU are REALLY INTERESTED! You may find some opinions differ ............and........you can present YOURS ..............Those meetings will welcome YOU instead of screening you and LOCKING you out!

Further I am MORE worried about OUR COUNTRY and REAL problems to bother with your divertive questions........because your past responses indicate YOU, pea are not OPEN to change

Who are NOT the Greens .........might give a bit of added definition........for those seriosly seeking information about greens and other progressive minded folks

Contrasting the Green Characteristics to the Fascism Characteristics................MY OPINION IS.... I'll take the GREEN as it "stands" for the BEST for our country......no questions asked.......... as opposed to the fascist creed below!

Question for you.......Doesn't this look like OUR PRESENT system in
OUR U. S. of A.? Pretty much fits YOU.........

Your pretended interest is just too obviously a rethug ploy

"Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism"

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes.

Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

The above is a summery of the more detailed orignal article "Fascism Anyone?" first published in Spring 2003 edition of Free Inquiry"

Where do YOU stand?

[MAGI]

I have learned that SOME people are very suspicious of people who have goodness and respect for humanity and our planet in their hearts and souls.

Contrast

"Ten Key Values of the Green Party

Originally ratified at the Green Party Convention in Denver, CO, June 2000.

1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY
Every human being deserves a say in the decisions that affect their lives and not be subject to the will of another. Therefore, we will work to increase public participation at every level of government and to ensure that our public representatives are fully accountable to the people who elect them. We will also work to create new types of political organizations which expand the process of participatory democracy by directly including citizens in the decision-making process.

2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY
All persons should have the rights and opportunity to benefit equally from the resources afforded us by society and the environment. We must consciously confront in ourselves, our organizations, and society at large, barriers such as racism and class oppression, sexism and homophobia, ageism and disability, which act to deny fair treatment and equal justice under the law.

3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM
Human societies must operate with the understanding that we are part of nature, not separate from nature. We must maintain an ecological balance and live within the ecological and resource limits of our communities and our planet. We support a sustainable society which utilizes resources in such a way that future generations will benefit and not suffer from the practices of our generation. To this end we must practice agriculture which replenishes the soil; move to an energy efficient economy; and live in ways that respect the integrity of natural systems.

4. NON-VIOLENCE
It is essential that we develop effective alternatives to society’s current patterns of violence. We will work to demilitarize, and eliminate weapons of mass destruction, without being naive about the intentions of other governments. We recognize the need for self-defense and the defense of others who are in helpless situations. We promote non-violent methods to oppose practices and policies with which we disagree, and will guide our actions toward lasting personal, community and global peace.

5. DECENTRALIZATION
Centralization of wealth and power contributes to social and economic injustice, environmental destruction, and militarization. Therefore, we support a restructuring of social, political and economic institutions away from a system which is controlled by and mostly benefits the powerful few, to a democratic, less bureaucratic system. Decision-making should, as much as possible, remain at the individual and local level, while assuring that civil rights are protected for all citizens.

6. COMMUNITY-BASED ECONOMICS AND ECONOMIC JUSTICE
We recognize it is essential to create a vibrant and sustainable economic system, one that can create jobs and provide a decent standard of living for all people while maintaining a healthy ecological balance. A successful economic system will offer meaningful work with dignity, while paying a “living wage” which reflects the real value of a person’s work.

Local communities must look to economic development that assures protection of the environment and workers’ rights; broad citizen participation in planning; and enhancement of our “quality of life.” We support independently owned and operated companies which are socially responsible, as well as co-operatives and public enterprises that distribute resources and control to more people through democratic participation.

7. FEMINISM AND GENDER EQUITY
We have inherited a social system based on male domination of politics and economics. We call for the replacement of the cultural ethics of domination and control with more cooperative ways of interacting that respect differences of opinion and gender. Human values such as equity between the sexes, interpersonal responsibility, and honesty must be developed with moral conscience. We should remember that the process that determines our decisions and actions is just as important as achieving the outcome we want.

8. RESPECT FOR DIVERSITY
We believe it is important to value cultural, ethnic, racial, sexual, religious and spiritual diversity, and to promote the development of respectful relationships across these lines.

We believe that the many diverse elements of society should be reflected in our organizations and decision-making bodies, and we support the leadership of people who have been traditionally closed out of leadership roles. We acknowledge and encourage respect for other life forms than our own and the preservation of biodiversity.

9. PERSONAL AND GLOBAL RESPONSIBILITY
We encourage individuals to act to improve their personal well-being and, at the same time, to enhance ecological balance and social harmony. We seek to join with people and organizations around the world to foster peace, economic justice, and the health of the planet.

10. FUTURE FOCUS AND SUSTAINABILITY
Our actions and policies should be motivated by long-term goals. We seek to protect valuable natural resources, safely disposing of or “unmaking” all waste we create, while developing a sustainable economics that does not depend on continual expansion for survival. We must counterbalance the drive for short-term profits by assuring that economic development, new technologies, and fiscal policies are responsible to future generations who will inherit the results of our actions."

NOTE the paragraph below.........join and have your say..........

Ten Key Values from other state and local Greens.
There is no authoritative version of the Ten Key Values of the Greens. The Ten Key Values are guiding principles that are adapted and defined to fit each state and local chapter.

To:

[kyindy]

I think the main difference of the Green Party is that we look at a very long timeline in dealing with actions and consequences. Regardless of what is being decided, we have to look at the long term ramifications. And the Green Party has no problem saying hey this isn't working lets re-evaluate and see what needs to change.

A great case in point is Oil. At the beginning oil was cheap, abundant, didn't cause any big problems as far as we knew. Let's use it. But after the American Oil Crisis of the 70's I believe the Greens would have said, lets start looking for alternatives. We can not have another country or group of countrys(OPEC) have any control over our Economy or our power(electric or political). Then when the Exxon Valdez crashed that would have been the beginning of the end of oil as a means for mass production.

Another example of the long-term thinking the Green Party is akin to is the corp. obsession with Quarterly gains and how this has cause ramped corruption. Workers are paid less, less benefits are given to employees to fatten the bottom line. Resulting in a squeezing of the middle class on taxes. Long term gains and over all better worker treatment; begat better quality, more loyal customers, and better long term gains.

These are just some economic examples of Green Party thinking. But you can see how this type of thinking is very problem solving in nature. Explore as many options as you can before deciding on a course of action. This may take a little bit longer, but the changes that do happen are well thought out and well planned.

And as the saying goes, "Real change happens in small increments." (Don't know who said this but it is a good saying.)

[sweetpea]

Let's see if MAgi has had time to compile thoughts and have a debate/answer questions.
-----------------

Questions about Green beleifs #1.


Quote:
1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY
Every human being deserves a say in the decisions that affect their lives and not be subject to the will of another. Therefore, we will work to increase public participation at every level of government and to ensure that our public representatives are fully accountable to the people who elect them. We will also work to create new types of political organizations which expand the process of participatory democracy by directly including citizens in the decision-making process.

Hear Hear.
Just remember though, not everyone believes as stridently in liberalism. Be careful what you ask for. The Christian Coalition is a grassroots org.


Quote:
2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY
All persons should have the rights and opportunity to benefit equally from the resources afforded us by society and the environment. We must consciously confront in ourselves, our organizations, and society at large, barriers such as racism and class oppression, sexism and homophobia, ageism and disability, which act to deny fair treatment and equal justice under the law.

--Fine. But start stretching this to mean equal outomes for everyone regardless of free will decisions then you will lose all credibility.


Quote:
3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM
Human societies must operate with the understanding that we are part of nature, not separate from nature. We must maintain an ecological balance and live within the ecological and resource limits of our communities and our planet. We support a sustainable society which utilizes resources in such a way that future generations will benefit and not suffer from the practices of our generation. To this end we must practice agriculture which replenishes the soil; move to an energy efficient economy; and live in ways that respect the integrity of natural systems.

Live within the ecological and resource limits of our communities? Really? Does that mean turn off worldwide, nationwide, regionwide distribution of goods and services. Think about what you are espousing. Let's say we defined a community as a 20 square mile area in the Midwest....are your green beleifs going to allow fresh fruits to be deliverd to this community?


Quote:
4. NON-VIOLENCE
It is essential that we develop effective alternatives to society’s current patterns of violence. We will work to demilitarize, and eliminate weapons of mass destruction, without being naive about the intentions of other governments. We recognize the need for self-defense and the defense of others who are in helpless situations. We promote non-violent methods to oppose practices and policies with which we disagree, and will guide our actions toward lasting personal, community and global peace.

We can start by not glorifying the likes of Tookie Williams.
Who are yopu going to demilitarize first?
Sounds like you are a fan of Ronald Reagan....he eliminated WMD in USSR and the US and demilitarized the USSR to the point of being on the ash heap of history.
I take it you don't agree with peae through superior firepower. What would you do about Islamic fundamentalism and Islamic Jihad? They want you dead too.
Hint - Sweet little anecdotes about being one with the earth isn't going to change their minds.



Quote:
5. DECENTRALIZATION
Centralization of wealth and power contributes to social and economic injustice, environmental destruction, and militarization. Therefore, we support a restructuring of social, political and economic institutions away from a system which is controlled by and mostly benefits the powerful few, to a democratic, less bureaucratic system. Decision-making should, as much as possible, remain at the individual and local level, while assuring that civil rights are protected for all citizens.

Sounds like you are for states rights and home rule in politics. I happen to agree. Just don't complain when a state or a town passes legislation that you disagree with and it gains a foothold nationally.....kinda like school choice.

[sweetpea]

Questions about Green beleifs #1.


Quote:
1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY
Every human being deserves a say in the decisions that affect their lives and not be subject to the will of another. Therefore, we will work to increase public participation at every level of government and to ensure that our public representatives are fully accountable to the people who elect them. We will also work to create new types of political organizations which expand the process of participatory democracy by directly including citizens in the decision-making process.

Hear Hear.
Just remember though, not everyone believes as stridently in liberalism. Be careful what you ask for. The Christian Coalition is a grassroots org.


Quote:
2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY
All persons should have the rights and opportunity to benefit equally from the resources afforded us by society and the environment. We must consciously confront in ourselves, our organizations, and society at large, barriers such as racism and class oppression, sexism and homophobia, ageism and disability, which act to deny fair treatment and equal justice under the law.

--Fine. But start stretching this to mean equal outomes for everyone regardless of free will decisions then you will lose all credibility.


Quote:
3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM
Human societies must operate with the understanding that we are part of nature, not separate from nature. We must maintain an ecological balance and live within the ecological and resource limits of our communities and our planet. We support a sustainable society which utilizes resources in such a way that future generations will benefit and not suffer from the practices of our generation. To this end we must practice agriculture which replenishes the soil; move to an energy efficient economy; and live in ways that respect the integrity of natural systems.

Live within the ecological and resource limits of our communities? Really? Does that mean turn off worldwide, nationwide, regionwide distribution of goods and services. Think about what you are espousing. Let's say we defined a community as a 20 square mile area in the Midwest....are your green beleifs going to allow fresh fruits to be deliverd to this community?


Quote:
4. NON-VIOLENCE
It is essential that we develop effective alternatives to society’s current patterns of violence. We will work to demilitarize, and eliminate weapons of mass destruction, without being naive about the intentions of other governments. We recognize the need for self-defense and the defense of others who are in helpless situations. We promote non-violent methods to oppose practices and policies with which we disagree, and will guide our actions toward lasting personal, community and global peace.

We can start by not glorifying the likes of Tookie Williams.
Who are yopu going to demilitarize first?
Sounds like you are a fan of Ronald Reagan....he eliminated WMD in USSR and the US and demilitarized the USSR to the point of being on the ash heap of history.
I take it you don't agree with peae through superior firepower. What would you do about Islamic fundamentalism and Islamic Jihad? They want you dead too.
Hint - Sweet little anecdotes about being one with the earth isn't going to change their minds.



Quote:
5. DECENTRALIZATION
Centralization of wealth and power contributes to social and economic injustice, environmental destruction, and militarization. Therefore, we support a restructuring of social, political and economic institutions away from a system which is controlled by and mostly benefits the powerful few, to a democratic, less bureaucratic system. Decision-making should, as much as possible, remain at the individual and local level, while assuring that civil rights are protected for all citizens.

Sounds like you are for states rights and home rule in politics. I happen to agree. Just don't complain when a state or a town passes legislation that you disagree with and it gains a foothold nationally.....kinda like school choice.

[MAGI]

Sweetpea,
As I told you already........ This thread is here because I inquired about the Greens. If you start at the beginning you will find this to be true. I suggested you go to some Green meetings and present your questions there. I see you prefer NOT to do it! I cannot answer for the Green Party,as I am NOT a member! Reading their "creed", I am NOT troubled at all by it! I find it extremely commendable!

You are welcome to your thoughts.

So you want to know mine?.......here they are................

1. All Christians are NOT Right Wing Nuts!

2. The one comment I have about #2. is "Hear Hear!

3. I need no further qualification and find your comments...........silly

4. I believe I would begin by dismissing "Josh" Bolten as our representative to the U.N........The U.N. then could work out the issues. I would ask our former president Jimmy Carter to be our representative since he is a VERY wise humanitarian. Yes, your take is correct.......... I WOULD NOT HAVE INVADED IRAQ OR ANY COUNTRY THAT IS NOT A THREAT TO OUR COUNTRY! I WOULD USE DIPLOMACY TO THE N'TH DEGREE TO RESOLVE PROBLEMS...........
I HAPPEN TO THINK EACH COUNTRY SHOULD SOLVE THEIR OWN PROBLEMS. THEN, IF NECESSARY, TAKE IT TO THE U.N.!
I ALSO BELIEVE WE ARE NO LONGER THE MORAL NATION WE ONCE WERE AND HAVE LITTLE CREDIBILITY WORLDWIDE, AT THIS PLACE IN TIME. AND WE DAMN WELL BETTER GET OUT OF IRAQ AND "GUARD THE GATES" AT HOME, BECAUSE IT IS IGNORANT TO NOT BELIEVE THAT OUR GREATEST THREAT IS IN OUR OWN COUNTRY................ BECAUSE WE HAVE CAUSED SO MANY TO HATE US! .......and............OUR BORDERS ARE NOT PROTECTED.....................

5. Yes, I am for States Rights. CT. does so much better than the Federal Gov't.... and I will, as I do, peacefully (complain) protest if something is NOT to my liking

If you disagree with what I feel ........that is you "RIGHT" and ya know, I really am NOT interested.

If only we lived by the Green Creed, What a wonderfull world this would be................................................ ....................
:sunny: :thumbup:

[MAGI]

Reading about the budget today, I realized "Josh" is NOT a nickname for John...

[greenmansgruv]

Just want to get on the board as a newbie, the Greens (of which I am a member of NY Greens) are the party possessing not the biggest presence or influence in the political centers of power, but the party possessing the message for this hour. What keeps Greens and other 3rd parties outside the system, (though locally New Patz, NY has a mayor who is a Green) is the rigging of the political process by the Republicrats. Want to do us all a favor, register Green and get 5 others to do so also. Greens also need to become more united, its about getting our house in order.

[FDRfollower]

Hello greenmansgruv. Welcome to POL. :)

Greens also need to become more united, its about getting our house in order.

More power to you! Good luck in your mass organizing.

Don't be afraid of the mean conservatives, they don't bite. Wander around some. Check out some topics. Do have fun.

[Jane of Arc]

Welcome greenmansgruv! I am presently without a political party ... please tell me more about the Greens and why you are one? :sunny:

[halg]

Let's see if MAgi has had time to compile thoughts and have a debate/answer questions.

I will try. I just joined Greens a few months ago after deciding over a period of several years. These are only my own thoughts, not necessarily those of other Greens.


Questions about Green beleifs #1.


Quote:
1. GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY
Every human being deserves a say in the decisions that affect their lives and not be subject to the will of another. Therefore, we will work to increase public participation at every level of government and to ensure that our public representatives are fully accountable to the people who elect them. We will also work to create new types of political organizations which expand the process of participatory democracy by directly including citizens in the decision-making process.

Hear Hear.
Just remember though, not everyone believes as stridently in liberalism. Be careful what you ask for. The Christian Coalition is a grassroots org.


True, there are varying beliefs out there. One of our county Green Party officials says that we (Greens) should be open to many points of view, including some traditionally "conservative" positions, such as balanced budget.

OTOH, if we include those who lean way, then we must also include the voices of socialists, libertarians, and yes ... even ... communists. Unless the positions somehow oppose our ten key values, there shouldn't be any reason to refuse anybody a place at the political table.

Quote:
2. SOCIAL JUSTICE AND EQUAL OPPORTUNITY
All persons should have the rights and opportunity to benefit equally from the resources afforded us by society and the environment. We must consciously confront in ourselves, our organizations, and society at large, barriers such as racism and class oppression, sexism and homophobia, ageism and disability, which act to deny fair treatment and equal justice under the law.

--Fine. But start stretching this to mean equal outomes for everyone regardless of free will decisions then you will lose all credibility.


Hmmm. Maybe they should have used the term "equitably" or something similar. I think they might have meant (but were not clear, perhaps) that everyone should get some kind of benefit. Greens are not necessarily anti-capitalism, from what I have observed so far, but there are certainly a few amongst us who see widespread failure of the system to provide even basic life requirements to many people.

"Equal outcomes for everyone ..." sounds more like Marxist rhetoric and less like the mainstream Green thinking. I try to keep an open mind, but it is hard at times, with so many varying opinions within the party.

Maybe it is the case that Greens would like to modify the capitalist system so that people will not go hungry, homeless, or sick simply because they are unable to keep up with the system: Unbridled corporate violence against the public at large, and against the environment, is what I am hearing needs reform.

Is that a position you could live with?

[halg]

Quote:
3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM
Human societies must operate with the understanding that we are part of nature, not separate from nature. We must maintain an ecological balance and live within the ecological and resource limits of our communities and our planet. We support a sustainable society which utilizes resources in such a way that future generations will benefit and not suffer from the practices of our generation. To this end we must practice agriculture which replenishes the soil; move to an energy efficient economy; and live in ways that respect the integrity of natural systems.

Live within the ecological and resource limits of our communities? Really? Does that mean turn off worldwide, nationwide, regionwide distribution of goods and services.


No, quite the opposite! Actually, if you read our platform carefully, it mentions things like failure of the distribution system, homelessness, hunger, poverty, etc. It is impossible -- not to mention undesirable -- to cut off distribution, and I have never heard any Green in favor of that.

As far as living within the ecological and resource limits of local communities, I think this means to live within means. A resource could be money, which might be used to trade with other communities, etc. Just not overspending, or overtilling, or purposely or foolishly raping resources to the benefit of a few privileged persons, or perhaps none at all in the end.

Think about what you are espousing. Let's say we defined a community as a 20 square mile area in the Midwest....are your green beleifs going to allow fresh fruits to be deliverd to this community?

Again, see my last comment.


Quote:
4. NON-VIOLENCE
It is essential that we develop effective alternatives to society’s current patterns of violence. We will work to demilitarize, and eliminate weapons of mass destruction, without being naive about the intentions of other governments. We recognize the need for self-defense and the defense of others who are in helpless situations. We promote non-violent methods to oppose practices and policies with which we disagree, and will guide our actions toward lasting personal, community and global peace.

We can start by not glorifying the likes of Tookie Williams.
Who are yopu going to demilitarize first?
Sounds like you are a fan of Ronald Reagan....he eliminated WMD in USSR and the US and demilitarized the USSR to the point of being on the ash heap of history.
I take it you don't agree with peae through superior firepower. What would you do about Islamic fundamentalism and Islamic Jihad? They want you dead too.
Hint - Sweet little anecdotes about being one with the earth isn't going to change their minds.



Tookie Williams; it's been awhile. [Hal consulting wikipedia, then, moments later ...] Aha! Well, I cannot speak for that case, because the short account I just reviewed would not provide me with any defense.

Personally, I believe in non-violence, and that includes domestic and personal as well. OTOH, I also think that people should be allowed to atone for their wrongdoings. I have in fact been the victim of many violent incidents by absolutely no fault of my own, other than living in a very violent society that ignores the conditions that foment and breed violence. Hatred begets violence, more violence begets more hatred; you know the story.

I don't know about him. Only a jury and a fair trial could make that determination. Unfortunately, fair juries and fair trials are hard to find. Which is another thing that needs to be reformed, and Greens are on that, too.

Now, about that Ronald Reagan fella. True, he got rid of the Wall without firing a shot, but didn't he also (with the help of Oliver North) set up the Iran-Contra deal? Or do I need another trip to wikipedia?

True that speaking sweet little anecdotes, Sweetpea, cannot change the world. But action can. And, admittedly, it is the ACTIVE Greens who are being a stand for change, not the ones who just register Green (but we welcome them too). That's why I will encourage participation in events in my own Green local.
[

[halg]

Quote:
5. DECENTRALIZATION
Centralization of wealth and power contributes to social and economic injustice, environmental destruction, and militarization. Therefore, we support a restructuring of social, political and economic institutions away from a system which is controlled by and mostly benefits the powerful few, to a democratic, less bureaucratic system. Decision-making should, as much as possible, remain at the individual and local level, while assuring that civil rights are protected for all citizens.

Sounds like you are for states rights and home rule in politics. I happen to agree. Just don't complain when a state or a town passes legislation that you disagree with and it gains a foothold nationally.....kinda like school choice.

I happen to agree, too. For one thing, the federal system was supposed to be a sharing of power (read: Money, Resources, etc) between the national and state governments, which has been abrogated in just about every way possible. We can leave out the list of blame here. For another thing, the reality is that the federal government has done just a horrible job of delivering services to our country's many people. I believe that states, with far fewer citizens to govern, could do a much better job.

School choice is fine, so long as it does not exclude anyone -- especially the poorest children -- from a decent education. For instance, I think the charter schools are largely farcical, since better education in those schools seems to come at the expense of the public schools, merely due to shifting the better teachers and administrators to the charter schools.

If that were not the case, then why bother having this artificial partitioning of public school funds at all? Some investors/owners make money at taxpayer expense, while parents of those whose children cannot attend the charter school for one reason or another still have to pay into the common pot that pays for them.

[halg]

I hope you will not mind that I omitted the original key values text. I think at this point we all know the 10 key values. (Not to mention the 14 warning signs of fascism :rolleyes:
Questions about green beliefs #2.


Who is going to decide what a living wage is? A centralized govt. bureacracy (see #5.), the market, you?
I am soooo waiting on your reply.


Who gets to decide wages now? Great purveyors of progressive thinking? Individuals who care more that their workers get paid enough to live and retire?

I don't know exactly what the formula will be, or who will write the formula. It is necessary, however, that this be done.


What does this mean, besides you hate Wal-Mart.
again, soooo looking forward to your reply.


I love Wal-Mart. They never overpay their workers. They value every worker, regardless of how little money they are making. They give back to their community in the form of gifts and donations to local causes rather than waste it on additional benefits for their workers. Wal-Mart believes in a strong social support system by our government, since the system is so essential to making up the shortfall between their make-believe paychecks and the reality of the world.


More babble.
Last I checked women are just as free as men in the US.
Please.
If/when you answer don't forget the part about respecting the differences between the genders.



On paper, they might be. But there are still a lot of inequities. How free is a single mother whose ex is not paying support and has to work 3 jobs to feed their kids? Compared to a single guy who is getting off with impunity thanks to a lax system of enforcement (again, the male-dominated society in charge of rules)?

The only differences between the genders is that women make the babies, and men just help. What I mean is that women have an inherently more difficult role in life than men. So, yes, you are right; we must respect the differences between the genders!



Does this mean quotas? Yes or no.
Do ou include ( oh, I don't know) Christains, conservatives, two parent households as part of diversity?


I am not thrilled about quotas, no. Maybe a better solution is to change the real estate industry so that people of different walks of life live with each other, go to the same schools, work in the same community, etc. Then we won't need quotas.

The real estate industry encourages segregation by its prejudiced culture. By changing this mindset, we can change the demographics and hence our society.


Persaonal responsibility. Does this mean that people are responsible for their actions? i.e. commit a crime = go to jail.
Choose to drop out of high school and survive on minimum wage.
Choose to have children at 17 while unmaried and survive on welfare fro a lifetime.
Do those kinds of personal responsibility things count or just the touchy-feely ones?



I hear some discomfort with the notion of compassion for other human beings.

1. Commit a crime == go to jail. Do you really believe that our commercialized prison system reforms criminals? What about all those insanity defenses -- isn't that evidence of widespread mental illness? Maybe psychiatric hospitals would be a better choice.

2. "Choose" to drop out of high school. You mean because the school was extremely dangerous, unlike our relatively calm suburban ones? Because the student was scared of being beaten or losing their life? Or do you mean due to selfishness, like having to support the family because of a flood that didn't need to happen? Or is there some other bunch of losers you are referring to?

3. Choose to have children while underage. It sounds like you think they really should have to pay for this mistake for the rest of their lives. Well, why don't they just get rid of the kid and let the state or some other caring person look after the child so this child can complete high school. Unless funding for such state programs has been cut, or they were unfortunate enough to have given birth to a black or latino baby, or a baby with birth defects, that maybe other people don't want. Why should people like you have to pay for the mistakes of others? It is as if we are all in this together, helping to create the conditions that led these idiots to have children too young, or sumthin.


ARe you espousing agrarian collectivism or not? These beleifs don't come out and say it, but there are many hints at it.
Would Social Security fall into one of these long term goals?

If you haven't figured it out by now, we are really just a bunch of commies waiting for the 2nd coming of Marx. Yes we are espousing agrarian collectivism. We are also espousing laying around all day while the former capitalists toil all day long as punishment for their crimes under the old system. We are going to give back all the land to the people we stole it from centuries ago and resign ourselves to living in the lower tip of Manhattan, the one part we did pay for. Of course we are, and I am sorry if that was not clear from my earlier responses.

Social Security? Don't even worry about that. Bush needs money to run his many wars. So the program will be gone soon anyway, and maybe us too.

[MAGI]

Halg,
I appreciate what you are saying. I apologize for sounding crazy but sweetpea (was/is) just here to antagonise. Said he/she would be back in November to say "told ya so".

If someone was able to answer a so called question, pea diverted to something/anything else to harass. We have a tool on this forum that allows participants to block people such as sweetpea. I found it necessary to resort to do so.

We now have a better system. :sunny:

[halg]

Uh-oh, MAGI. I am not sure if I agree with your position. I think she was frustrated; I don't think her original intent was to antagonize. Any such behavior might be explained from the lack of an honest, direct response.

I am brand new here, obviously, but I am on a few other debating boards as well, so I have some experience with flaming, being flamed, and regretting something I wrote. But I did read this ENTIRE thread from beginning to end before posting my comments. And I noticed a pattern: Every time she asked her questions, she was getting an answer that did not directly address her question. This is unfair in any conversation, regardless of who the participants are or their respective conditions.

Admittedly, I did give some flack, because I feel her position is so insensitive and uncompassionate. But I did meet her head on, I think you will agree. What that other fellow kept doing is pasting the 14 signs of political mental illness known as fascism. But that is like asking for someone to pass the butter and being handed the margarine, and when you complain that you don't care for margarine, they tell you that this is not like the other margarines out there and this is reason enough to eat it.

Sure, everyone agrees that fascism is a bad thing, but that in no way addresses the question of who the Greens are. Two unrelated bads don't make a good.

But I still appreciate your response. Thank you for the complement.

Oh, one other thing. Personally, I don't block anyone. I think it is important to hear all sides, because I can always be errant in my logic or short in my knowledge of a topic.

[MAGI]

Hi halg,
This thread came to be because I asked about the Greens.
haus presented their 10 points. -V-, who is this forum's originator, is a Green and presented information.

I think I took a test & didn't prove to be a pure Green but admire their beliefs.

As sweetpea kept asking his/her questions, fascism was being discussed on other threads. I came upon the "14 points of fascism" and felt they were about the most contrasting of political beliefs compared to my conception of the Greens, so I posted them saying that.

I again stated I was not a member of the Green Party so I could not answer sweetpea's questions and at first suggested sweetpea attend a meeting and ask his/her questions at the meeting.
If I had control, I'd go back & erase much of what I wrote. Unfortunately, I don't have that power.

After a few go-rounds at this point, I decided to post my opinions on what I believed the Green creed meant to me, again stating I was not speaking as a Green.

At the same time sweetpea was dumping on many threads and it simply was easier to disregard what he had to say after awhile.
There comes a time to accept what you (I) cannot change and I decided the day had come to walk away.

[halg]

Hi halg,
This thread came to be because I asked about the Greens.
haus presented their 10 points. -V-, who is this forum's originator, is a Green and presented information.

I think I took a test & didn't prove to be a pure Green but admire their beliefs.


What "test?"

I have only been a Green for a short time, but I chat with other Greens via email and one of them, who has been with the party since before its inception 10 years ago, provides a simple means by which to determine whether or not one is Green: Simply ask oneself if they agree with the key values of whatever Green organization they are interested in.

You may notice that the exact key values that are included may vary somewhat from one Green group to another, but they are always in the same spirit. For instance, many groups say that the first 4 values are the "pillars" of the Green movement.

Any way you look at it, there is room at the Green table for anyone who concurs with the key values and the spirit of those principals, and that is all that is needed. There is no "acid" test, really, other than this agreement, perhaps.

As is how I have come to understand it.

MAGI, what about you and the key values? Maybe you fit in better than you think.

[MAGI]

Hi halg,
I began by asking about the Greens official concept:



If it is a party of people wanting to preserve Earth ........clean water, air, uncontaminated soil, food.............that is caring of humanity, that's my feelings..............

What am I missing to think of myself as a prospective member of The Green Party?
haus provided their creed and a quiz which might place a person in a particular "party". It's back on page 3, #2.

The quiz proved me more "Green" and less liberal than I thought I was. :confused:

I thought, though, the quiz could be more qualified and know we would have a beautifull world if everyone was Green.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
haus provided this on #2:

Re: MAIN Forum Structure & Guidelines
Here are a couple of introductions to the Green Party:

10 Key Values of the Green Party
Recent Position Statements

Here's a neat quiz that matches you against (2004?) party platforms: http://www.ontheissues.org/quizeng/x...Page=1&Clear=Y

There's been a great deal of effort since 2000 to invite the Green Party into the Democratic Party to become a faction much like the "Moral Majority" became a faction of the Republican Party. It's a very, very, very messy situation. There have been successes and failures. I think the 2005 Progressive Democrats of America convention had a notable success, but I can't put my finger on the reference.
_______________________
What would Robin Hood do?

[halg]

Hi halg,
I began by asking about the Greens official concept:


haus provided their creed and a quiz which might place a person in a particular "party". It's back on page 3, #2.

The quiz proved me more "Green" and less liberal than I thought I was. :confused:


I don't have an answer to that, unfortunately. At this early stage in my Green understanding, it appears that the Green party tends to attract very progressive-thinking folks like myself; on the other hand, the Green party invites people from many different schools of thought, and so to some extent, I get the impression that the Party is trying to position itself as more "moderate." Again, this is based on observation, not necessarily the official party platform or direction, and not necessarily reflective of my own beliefs.


I thought, though, the quiz could be more qualified and know we would have a beautifull world if everyone was Green.

I don't know about this quiz -- I haven't looked at it. Generally, I don't like such quizzes because they try to generalize people; no two persons think exactly alike. But, on the other hand, they may think similarly. It is this similarity in thinking that brings people together, not labels.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
haus provided this on #2:

Re: MAIN Forum Structure & Guidelines
Here are a couple of introductions to the Green Party:

10 Key Values of the Green Party
Recent Position Statements

Here's a neat quiz that matches you against (2004?) party platforms: http://www.ontheissues.org/quizeng/x...Page=1&Clear=Y

There's been a great deal of effort since 2000 to invite the Green Party into the Democratic Party to become a faction much like the "Moral Majority" became a faction of the Republican Party. It's a very, very, very messy situation. There have been successes and failures. I think the 2005 Progressive Democrats of America convention had a notable success, but I can't put my finger on the reference.
_______________________
What would Robin Hood do?


Admittedly, Greens want many of the same social and ecological goals that the Dems want. But a key difference is that Greens are working toward government that is free of powerful corporate influence and control: This is the primary difference between Greens and Blues. Thus, Greens support clean elections, IRV, pro-rep, etc., not big cash campaigns steered by the goals of the wealthy.

The Green Party would have to transform itself into something that looks more like the Democratic party -- that is to say, become indistinguishable -- before they would be able to merge. And, again, from what I have observed so far, it doesn't look likely.

So the Dems can stop dreaming. A more constructive approach would be to support Greens, as well as other smaller parties, and form powerful coalitions.
IMHO. :D

[MAGI]

If only we could establish IRV with EVERY vote, the GREEN vote would really count! Nader would have had my vote in 2000 if I didn't fear what happened in FL.

Do you have IRV in your town? I see it is happening in different towns throughout the country. Vermont in particular. An easy explanation of IRV:
http://www.fairvote.org/?page=1668

Needless to say, voting machines must be tamper proof & verifiable..............

[halg]

If only we could establish IRV with EVERY vote, the GREEN vote would really count! Nader would have had my vote in 2000 if I didn't fear what happened in FL.

How would IRV impacted the fraudulent elections in FL 2000 and OH 2004? I think these are 2 different issues. IRV allows 3rd parties a chance to participate in the democratic process, while still ensuring that the winning candidate gets at least 51% of the popular vote. The other issue has to do with how votes were counted between the parties that did participate. It is very hard to imagine that the Green vote would make any difference being that the entire FL and OH elections were completely rigged in the first place. A few thousand more Green voters voting Democratic would have been offset by an even greater amount of election fraud, I would imagine. Hence, no difference.

Do you have IRV in your town? I see it is happening in different towns throughout the country. Vermont in particular.

Yes, I know and that is why the Vermont Progressive party (link: http://progressives.org) has had such huge success in VT.

And, as you know, AZ compatriot, we do not have IRV here.

An easy explanation of IRV:
http://www.fairvote.org/?page=1668

And wikipedia has a very nice explanation too, along with too many variations. The variations, in my opinion, do not increase "fairness" over the basic IRV enough to warrant the additional complexity and confusion. Besides, these more elaborate methods can actually result in a hung election, due to mathematical complications introduced by these "condorcet rules". Basic vanilla IRV does not have that problem; there is always a clear winner.

I want IRV, but I want SIMPLE IRV.

Needless to say, voting machines must be tamper proof & verifiable.

[halg]

Needless to say, voting machines must be tamper proof & verifiable..............
I would go one step farther and say that voting machines must either be non-existent or incorporated into a publicly-verifiable system as I outline below. There is no way to guarantee a fair vote with machines (I have been in I.T. for 15+ years and I know that bits of electronic information can be modified without a trace). Likewise, votes run on paper ballots can be tampered with as well, but it has a very tangible audit trail.

An appropriate use for computers -- and I think the best use for them -- in elections would be to post everyone's votes anonymously on thousands of websites such as news media, universities, gateway servers, etc. By "anonymous" I mean that each voter would be identified by a unique ballot number in each election. Every voter could verify their vote online to ensure it was not tampered with, and websites possessing a copy of the complete vote could crosscheck each other to ensure that every copy of the vote was consistent and not compromised in any way. Then every citizen or organization could use the data for whatever purpose they wanted.

If a conflict arose, at least we would know for certain, and an appropriate investigation into the mess could be commenced. The publicly-recorded votes could be verified against the paper ballots, along with any voter complaints. Once the criminals and/or incompetents were revealed, the votes could be corrected on a case by case basis. I recommend a fine of $100,000 per error charged to each individual and/or organization found to be complicit plus 20 years imprisonment for each offender. This is fair since our vote is our most precious right in a democracy.

But using voting machines to collect and count votes as a "solution" by itself is a terrible mistake. They must be eliminated or coupled with a publicly-verifiable system like I mentioned above.

[halg]

There's been a great deal of effort since 2000 to invite the Green Party into the Democratic Party to become a faction much like the "Moral Majority" became a faction of the Republican Party. It's a very, very, very messy situation. There have been successes and failures.

I wrote a similar response to this issue on another forum.

I assert that it is ridiculous to even consider the possibility of Greens becoming part of the Democratic Party. That is because there is a lot of ignorance about the differences between being a Green and being a member of one of the duopoly parties. The Green Party does not accept corporate contributions, whereas the Dems (and Repubs) do.

Green Party politics does not even look like Dem politics. I attended the national convention this year in Tucson. What I observed are honest, sincere individuals running for offices all over the country (we were in several hundred races, btw). I did not see well-moneyed candidates strutting about the convention floor showing off in expensive suits and seeking photo ops. The press was there, but a lot of people just showed up as they were with no speech prepared.

Greens care about real health care, real environmental reform, and real living wages, to name just a few. Democrats have held office since 1979 when buying power of hard-earned income began to decrease, yet they did little or nothing to reverse that. They have demonstrated repeatedly how much they believe in healthcare reform, but they rarely talk of genuine universal health coverage for EVERYONE, not just those who can afford to join the club.

Greens attract the far left, including oddballs like me, who would not mind seeing capitalism taken off steroids and given a balanced diet of socialism along with REAL competition (meaning everyone can play this time). Democrats fear this, because they do not want to be associated with the "failed communist systems" blah blah blah. That argument is always backed up by the fall of the USSR, which never really achieved communism at all (thanks to the leadership of Stalin and his ilk), but rather a form of privately controlled despotism and fascism. Moreover, Democrats fear this because they don't want to lose the corporate bucks that continue to fund their political careers. Most Greens are not career politicians by contrast.

If the Dems really want to be green, and not just pretend they are, they are going to have to get off those corporate supports. I for one will never become a member of either of these big political parties so long as they continue their corrupt and evil practices.

So, until then, such efforts will be largely unsuccessful I believe.


I think the 2005 Progressive Democrats of America convention had a notable success, but I can't put my finger on the reference.


The only success I have observed by the PDA, DFA, and other similar groups is that they have succeeded in splintering the Democratic Party into a zillion little factions. Now, if they could just do that in the Republican Party, politics in this country could be on a level playing field.

-Hal

[Jennifer_SFBA]

If there is to be Federal government reform, the Green Party MUST outlaw secret society members from the Green Party to include past secret society membership UNLESS, beyond the legal standard of a reasonable doubt, there is evidence of a person's conviction that they have, in fact, forever, forsaken secret societies out of their experience and conviction against them!

[halg]

If there is to be Federal government reform, the Green Party MUST outlaw secret society members from the Green Party to include past secret society membership UNLESS, beyond the legal standard of a reasonable doubt, there is evidence of a person's conviction that they have, in fact, forever, forsaken secret societies out of their experience and conviction against them!

In principle, of course I must agree that secret societies must be banned from the GP, just as corporate donations are. However, I do not personally know -- having been in the GP only a year or so -- of any such goings on, which is not to deny these may exist.

Since I felt short of info on this issue, I thought it would be wise to do some research before replying to your post, which I assume was directed to me since I was the last poster (almost a year ago!). I managed to google up a number of articles, but none of them seemed to tie the Green Party to a specific secret society.

The only intimation of such a connection was on the illuminati conspiracy web page (very interesting in and of itself, by the way) where the UK Green Party leader Icke has been lecturing to audiences in Europe and North America about possible connections between the GP and certain Jewish individuals. Icke contends strongly that he is not an anti-semite, but at the surface, his arguments do hollowly echo the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It is only for that reason I am a bit suspicious of his reasoning. But I have not made up my mind on this yet.

Maybe you can point me (and other interested individuals) to web pages and other sources connecting these dots. This would help me to form an intelligent opinion about this issue. It certainly is important enough to me as a Green, as well as a Jew (though I am non-practicing).

Thank you as always for your contributions here, Jennifer.

-Hal

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Hi, hlag. Welcome back. One thread down from this one I posted alot about secret societies' involvement with government going back to the late 1700s with President George Washington being warned about the Illuminatti at work in America at that time, post 20 in that thread. Post 19 is the bottom line, the other posts are background establishing secret societies' direct involvement in government affairs that have lead We, the people where we are today and what they, the Illuminatti, are perpetrating in the Middle East on their way to consuming the WHOLE WORLD by way of trauma based, Marionette Programming! A background book that is must read is "The TranceFormation of America" by Cathy O'Brian and Mark Phillips wherein Dick Chaney is a major figure and player in mind control, Oz Programming, exposed in the book among others around Cheney's level and above in government, Reagan is exposed:

~ Dirty, Rotten, No Good Democrats ~

[Jennifer_SFBA]

David Icke exposes Jewish Illuminatti elite (apostates); some of the Goldman Sachs family, some of the Rothschild family, some of the Lehman Brothers as well as Illuminatti who are not Jewish identity; David Rockefellar, some the Carnegie family, some of the Mellon family, etc. Think of what those familes control and what they are able to do and are doing. Think of the corporations whose logos are Illuminatti symbols. Exxon, Shell, CBS, etc.

There is the free amature, bright, video below that says alot about it all:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=844493245933202727

[Jennifer_SFBA]

The Freeman Perspective With Michael Tsarian:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=844493245933202727

Michael Tsarian's website videos:

http://www.taroscopes.com/webstream/tourvideos/tourvideos.html

Michael Tsarian Text Tour:

http://www.taroscopes.com/taroscopestour/introduction.html

[halg]

Hi, hlag. Welcome back. One thread down from this one I posted alot about secret societies' involvement with government going back to the late 1700s with President George Washington being warned about the Illuminatti at work in America at that time...


Sorry, Jennifer. I may have read too much into your post. I thought your concern was with existing secret society links within the Green Party (and I assume you mean for these purposes the US GP).

Oh, of course, I am all too aware of the illuminati -- Jewish or otherwise -- who control everything we breath, touch, smell, or eat. One good example is the Bilderberg clan, perhaps one of the most secretive, with protesters never being permitted to get anywhere close to their meeting sites. Kind of like Seattle and the WTO meeting in 1999.

I just thought you were referring to specific and real operations within the GP. If you know of those, please post them. Saying that "THEY ARE EVERYWHERE" is a bit 1950's commie scare hollywood for me. I prefer specific examples. If they exist, I promise to examine them.

Your friend
Hal

[Jennifer_SFBA]

The Green Party is no part of the Global Elite cabal and will not be with the application of the uttmost of vigilance against it.

Vote Green Party - Preserve your conscience by doing the right thing for all the right reasons for universal peace.

Billery and O'bama recently visited the Bilderburg group at an official Bilderberg meeting held in the US state of Virginia.

http://www.infowars.com/?p=2560

AND

Who Is James A. Johnson?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_A._Johnson_%28businessman%29

Hillary & Obama In Secret Bilderberg Rendezvous

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet
Friday, June 6, 2008

According to news reports, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton went out of their way to hold their long-awaited private meeting in a very specific location - not at Hillary’s mansion in Washington - but in Northern Virginia, which also just happens to be the scene of the 2008 Bilderberg meeting.




Both Hillary and Obama have deep rooted connections to the Bilderberg elitists.

Obama’s spokesman Robert Gibbs told the media that Obama and Clinton held a private meeting last night but he refused to disclose where it had taken place, except that it was not at Clinton’s home in Washington, as had been widely reported. Hillary campaign managers also refused to disclose the location of the rendezvous.

"Reporters traveling with Obama sensed something might be happening between the pair when they arrived at Dulles International Airport after an event in Northern Virginia and Obama was not aboard the airplane," reports the Associated Press.

Dulles just happens to be walking distance from the Westfields Marriott hotel in Chantilly where Henry Kissinger, David Rockefeller and the rest of the Bilderberg globalists are convening.

"Asked at the time about the Illinois senator’s whereabouts, Gibbs smiled and declined to comment," the reports adds.

What is the only political "event" taking place in Northern Virginia at the moment? The Bilderberg Group meeting of course. Rather than taking the easier option of meeting at Clinton’s Washington mansion, Obama and Hillary went out of their way to grace the Bilderberg elitists with their presence.

The neo-liberal website Wonkette, which had previously ridiculed "conspiracy theorists" for ascribing power to Bilderberg, seemed to take a somewhat different tone when it made the connection between Obama and Hillary’s meeting and the Bilderberg Group.

"Guess who had a very private talky-talk in (maybe) romantic Northern Virginia tonight, probably at the Bilderberg Group meeting in Chantilly? Your Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton!," states the blog. "They really met and talked, in private, Thursday night. And really, it sounds like they did this at that creepy Bilderberg Group meeting, which is happening now, and which is so secret that nobody will admit they’re going, even though everybody who is anybody goes to Bilderberg."

To have the potential future President and Vice-President of America attend a conference that debunkers have dismissed as a mere talking shop for old white men once again underscores the real influence that Bilderberg enjoys.




Not one U.S. corporate media outlet has made the connection between the location of the Bilderberg Group conference this year and Obama and Hillary’s decision to venture out to Chantilly for their confidential "tet a tet".

Not one U.S. corporate media outlet has yet uttered one word about 125 of the world’s most influential power brokers meeting behind closed doors to discuss the future of the planet on U.S. soil - while being met by the probable future President of the United States.

Both Hillary and Obama have deep rooted connections to the Bilderberg elitists.

Bill Clinton attended the 1991 meeting in Germany shortly before becoming President and he attended again in 1999 when the conference was held in Sintra, Portugal (despite Clinton’s lie that he had not attended in 15 years).

Hillary herself was rumored to have attended the 2006 meeting in Ottawa, Canada.

As we reported last month, Bilderberg luminary and top corporate elitist James A. Johnson will select Democratic candidate Barack Obama’s running mate for the 2008 election and in turn potentially act as kingmaker for America’s future President.

Johnson also selected John Kerry’s running mate John Edwards in 2004 after Edwards had impressed Bilderberg elitists Henry Kissinger and David Rockefeller with a speech he gave at the globalist confab in Italy that year.

Johnson, who attended last year’s Bilderberg meeting in Turkey, is a representative for Friends of Bilderberg, an offshoot group that organizes Bilderberg’s annual meeting.

Hillary and Obama’s attendance of the 2008 Bilderberg meeting, and the complete failure of the mainstream media to report on the fact, once again betrays the super-secretive nature and influential reputation that the 54-year-old organization still maintains.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Green_Party_(United_States)

http://www.greens.org/s-r/14/14-03.html

History of the Green Party (United States)

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Part of the Politics series on Green politics

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Global Greens
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Politics Portal · v • d • e

Main article: Green Party (United States)

The Green Party is a political party which was first established in Tasmania in 1972, with organizing in the United States begun in 1984, inspired by the success of European Green parties, notably that of the German Green party. In 2007, it became the third modern party with a Federal Elections Commission-recognized Congressional Campaign Committee (in this case, for the Senate).[1] The Green Committees of Correspondence were the first Green political organization in the United States, forming in 1984 and eventually becoming known as the Greens/Green Party USA. This organization still exists. The first candidates to run on the Green Party ticket in the United States were Wes Hare (NC), Joel Schecter (CT), and Richard Wolff (CT), who ran for local offices in 1985.[2] Official ballot access was not achieved, however, until Jim Sykes' run for governor in Alaska in 1990.

Contents
]
1 Green Committees of Correspondence
2 Greening the West
3 The Greens/GPUSA
4 Green Party of the United States
5 Campus Greens
6 Greens for Democracy and Independence
7 See also
8 Sources and further reading
9 References



Green Committees of Correspondence

In May 1984 at the first North American Bioregional Congress, a small group met to discuss the need for a green movement in the U.S. From this initial gathering, a larger meeting was planned for August. That fall approximately 60 people met at Macalaster College in St. Paul, Minnesota and founded the Committees of Correspondence (so named after the Committees of Correspondence of the American Revolutionary War).[3] The Committees were formed to organize local Green groups, provide an information clearinghouse, publish a newsletter, and work toward creating a Green political organization in the U.S.[4] The group adopted the Green Ten Key Values as their guiding principles. Charlene Spretnak of California, professor and author of several books on Green philosophy and spirituality, was one of the attendees. The Committees continued to meet until 1991, until the rise of the Greens/Green Party USA.


Greening the West

Greening the West gatherings were the next large-scale meetings of Greens in the U.S. The first was held in 1987, near Monterey, California, and drew more than 1,000 people. Greening the West was next held in San Mateo County, California, from Sept. 30 - Oct. 2, 1988. Again, more than 1,000 people attended the event. Speakers included many important philosophers and scientists. Among the speakers were David Brower, Ernest Callenbach, Fritjof Capra, Bill Devall (co-author of Deep Ecology), Patricia Ellsberg, Harold Gilliam, Susan Griffin, Joanna Macy, Jerry Mander, Charlene Spretnak, Starhawk, and Brian Swimme.

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The Greens/GPUSA

This group arose in 1991, and became the first Green political party in the United States. It eventually became, after the split with the GPUS, a nonprofit organization rather than a political party.


Green Party of the United States

The GPUS was formed before 1996 as the Association of State Green Parties (ASGP). This organization was focused on electing candidates to office as well as issue activism and nonelectoral politics. In 1995, the ASGP nominated and ran Ralph Nader and Winona LaDuke for US president and vice-president; after the campaign, the ASGP reorganized its structure, expanded its affiliate state parties a