[-V-]

Humans are just one strand in the web of life

If the earth and everything on it was intended as our birthday present, then we were inexcusably late to the party. Even Christians must accept the fossil evidence that the time humans have occupied the earth is a mere fraction of other species. If a 6 hour documentary recounted life on earth humans would appear in the last minute. It has also been pointed out that:

- if insects disappeared the earth would die in 5 years.
- if people disappeared the earth would flourish in 5 years

[Badandy]

K. Let's kill all of the people then.

[-V-]

Let's kill all of the people then.

global warming should see to that.

[-V-]

A fetus has DNA and therefore it is life. Abortion is then MURDER

Using that logic, swatting a masquito is murder also.

"Life" is not the measure of right and wrong here. Sentience (thinking/feeling) is the consideration, for it is that that gives us and all animals a quality of life and an elevated potential for suffering and anguish beyond that of a plant.

I agree that at some point in the human fetus' development it should be given more consideration than the complications it might cause for it's mother. Unfortunately we will as a society have to guess at when that is.

One thing, however, is certain. Cats, dogs, pigs, cows, chickens, etc., are sentient beings far more advanced in their development than a human embryo. Everyone who opposes all human abortions and abuses and murders animals is a hypocrite!

[-V-]

No one mentioned anything to me that I would be arrested for murder

You know we are debating ethics not law. At this point in time our laws do not make it illegal to kill animals that taste good, but as surely as our society has redefined what is and isn't legal in the past (slavery for example) our intellectual evolution will eventually lead us to the illegality of killing animals based on ethics rather than taste.

"The time will come when men such as I will look on the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men." - Leonardo Da Vinci

"I have no doubt that it is part of the destiny of the human race in it's gradual development to leave off the eating of animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other when they came into contact with the more civilized." - Thoreau

several posters mentioned that a Fetus isn't life
I believe several posters mentioned that a fetus isn't human life (a human being) but I don't care to speak for anyone else.

yet the title of this thread would seem to disqualify that......wouldn't it? every strand in the web is connected and vital to the stability of the whole web.

[-V-]

simple enough. If you are not anti-abortion you are indeed not hypocritical. You believe in killing across the board based entirely on satisfying your own desires.

Some Christians would have played the "soul" card because it is a mystical card that does not require logic, reasoning, or morality. In your case, i believe you have trouble grasping the title of this thread because you perceive yourself as the web rather than a strand in it! May the winds of life never blow hard enough through your world for you to need to test that connectivity.

[snowdog]

Touche' I see your point there. however, We all abuse things in life for our
desires. as you type upsome pretty decent views..... look around your
home or office. when it was built, how many animals were displaced? to feed
your desires? we are ALL guilty of harming nature. I am pretty confident that
I do much more in giving back that I do taking. and that includes you tin.

[-V-]

I commend you for admitting to your crimes agains nature and I do indeed share that guilt. However, I think you would agree that it would not be a valid argument for a bank robber to justify continuing his behavior because "everyone who ever dowloaded a copywrited song without paying is also a thief".

There are degrees of immorality and there are ethical limits we put on ourselves everyday in our efforts to control our selfish impules to satisfy our own desires at the expense of others. For now, the abuse and killing of thinking, feeling creatures will remain a crime punishable by human conscience rather than human law.

For now, the punishment for your crimes is up to your conscience:
Everytime you stroke your pet and your cat purrs or dog wags it's tail remember that the money you spent at McDonalds goes towards inflicting the opposite reaction in a helpless animal.

[-V-]

you say that my point is taken but you follow that up with questions that demonstrate the opposite. If you "take" the point it is that all actions are not morally equal, e.g. downloading a copywrited song vs. robbing a bank, killing sperm cells by masterbating vs. having a late term abortion, etc..

Is it wrong to kill a thousand head herd of cattle, because of "mad-cow" disease yes, but it is a necessary evil

you are charged by a 1100 lb Kodiak Grizz yes, I would kill it or you too if you were coming at me with a knife

but WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH YOU MAKING THE ETHICAL DECISION TO HAVE A DISH OF PASTA INSTEAD OF A PIECE OF ANIMAL FLESH FOR DINNER TONIGHT!

Meat eating has nothing to do with necessity, protection, or survival. I was never more healthy than when I stopped eating animals.

And by the way, the solution regarding "mad cow" is US NOT INFECTING THEM to begin with (with our filthy, nasty, immoral, and inhuman animal farming practices).

ANY PETA idiot that stands there and tells me that I am "bad" is a hyporcyte.

you are "bad". I may be bad at times. But it sounds like you are badder.

[Lionhearted]

Just to put my two cents in here then I will leave you guys be to continue your discussion.
First, from reading tin's ealier posts, I doubt he would be on a fishing trip. :D
Second, though it is physically impossible for a human to outrun a grizzly, you actually would not need to. You would just need to outrun whoever was with you. :D
Sorry fellas, I couldn't resist, carry on gents.

[-V-]

indeed, I have discontinued sticking hooks through small fish in order to catch bigger fish. I used to enjoy crabbing too. I would discard the seaweed in the trap and keep the crab. Now if I pulled up a crab net I would keep the seaweed and throw back the crab.

[-V-]

Could you kindly direct me to the book on ethics that says its unethical to eat a steak

Ethics are not facts you find in an encyclopedia or in a book of law (at one time, those books would have told you that it is illegal for women to vote). Ethics are philosophical truths that you can reference by seeking out the writings of some of the greatest minds our world has known or by simply by conducting a careful exploration of your own heart.

"The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated" - Mohandas Gandhi

"Teaching a child not to step on a caterpillar is as valuable to the child as it is to the caterpillar"
- Bradley Miller

"Man has an infinite capacity to rationalize his behavior, especially when it comes to something he wants to eat . . ." - Cleveland Amory

"They pity, and they eat the objects of their compassion." - Oliver Goldsmith

"Animals are my friends . . . and I Don't eat my friends." - George Bernard Shaw

"We ourselves are the living graves of murdered beasts . . ." - George Bernard Shaw

"I have no doubt that it is part of the destiny of the human race in it's gradual development to leave off the eating of animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other when they came into contact with the more civilized." - Thoreau

"The time will come when men such as I will look on the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men." - Leonardo Da Vinci

"We must never permit the voice of humanity within us to be silenced. It is man's sympathy with all creatures that first makes him truly a man." - Albert Schweitzer

[-V-]

thanks for asking about where bird flu and mad cow come from:

"The bird flu epidemic raging through Asia is symptomatic of a sick, unsustainable process by which we produce our food," stresses Dr. Meriel Watts, coordinator of PAN Aotearoa/New Zealand. "Cramming tens of thousands of birds into cramped sheds is not only cruel and inhumane, it is a human health disaster in waiting. Because of the stressful and unhygienic way in which these birds are kept, they have to be force fed antibiotics to manage the diseases that can so easily run rampant. The result is lowered levels of disease resistance, and increased risk to human health through resistance to antibiotics."

Popularly known as ‘factory farming’, the intensive methods used in industrial poultry farming are largely to be blamed for the recent avian flu outbreak. Chickens are often crammed in comparably smaller coops and cages, or long sheds that can house thousands of birds, and outbreaks of infections can easily spread. The accumulated decaying feces leave the chicken breathing ammoniac fumes day in and day out. Such rearing methods keep the birds in a constant state of misery and stress that weakens their natural immune system, making them highly susceptible to diseases. As a means of solving this problem, intensive farming methods use high doses of antibiotics in chicken feed, and growth hormones are used to increase the speed of the chickens’ growth. As noted by the World Watch 2003 report, chickens often cannot walk properly because they have been pumped full of growth-promoting antibiotics. Farmers often do not use these drugs due to illness in the animals but because drug companies and extension agencies have convinced them that the antibiotics will ensure the health of their birds and increase their weight. Since the chickens are kept in close contact with each other 24 hours a day in their cramped coops, this facilitates the easy spread of diseases.

The first article that Lion quoted mainly points out the obvious fact that the disease spreads if your animals roam loose rather than being confined. But I didn't need to do any research before I made my point. Common sense is that free, healthy animals are more likely to be disease free.

Snowdog, if your parents raised you in a cage where you sat in the dark in your own urine and feces and they fed you garbage and brains because it is cheap and chemicals to make you grow faster do you think you might be prone to health issues? You think???

[-V-]

1. No, I don't believe the "US is behind the Bird-flu virus in order to control the Populations of other countries"

2. I believe the Bible is the word of man, not God and it is embarrassing what some people will take literally from it, especially from the Old Testament. I do, however, have the utmost admiration for the kindness, wisdom, humility, compassion, and love found in the stories of Jesus Christ and I believe we should all strive to be more like that (especially the religious right). Whether, the Bible says Jesus caught or ate fish in that place and time is irrelevant. If you know anything about the teachings of Jesus you would know without asking that if he walked the earth today he would not support the needless, soulless abuse of any of God's beautiful, thinking, feeling creatures. He'd walk through those factory farms and turn over those filthy, disease ridden cages. And perhaps God herself would smote the land with a great plague (birdflu, mad cow) as punishment for the people's blatant disregard for life.

p.s. You'll note that my reference to Bible quotes in the other animal rights thread begins with "if you follow the Bible you might want to read these passages".

Peace be with you brother.

[definitive]

So forget ethics for a moment, Snowdog and let's talk about empathy. Have you ever thought about the pain that these poor souls go through so that you can eat you steak that you've justified by reading scripture? Have you thought about spending your entire life with 4 or 5 others in a cage so tiny that you can't turn around and your nose (beak) gets cut off with no anesthesia so that you don't peck the living daylights out of the guy next to you?

How about spending your entire life in a cage and then getting your anus stuffed with a probe and electrocuted so that your skin can be worn by rich women as fashion statements?

How about being taken from your mother at birth and then spending your entire 6 months of life in a stall, shiting all over yourself and then being too weak to walk so that someone has to carry you to slaughter?

Does any of this mean anything to you? Have you seen animals who have died in snare traps? There are reasons why they call those animals "jellyheads."

Please view this short video and then go ahead and talk to me about ethics...

http://www.meetyourmeat.com

[snowdog]

Snowdog: Please just watch the video.

Meet your Meat (http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=mym2002)


how bout you answer MY questions.... Do you drive a vehicle? Do you live
in a house that displaced birds, or other animals. Do you use the roads that
are the infrastucture of this country that wiped out thousands of miles of
habitat for animals? Well, hell I will now watch the video, and You still
haven't answered my questions.


MY GOD.... I am at a loss of words did you see that turkey Farmer disgard
that Turkey? what a waste of good meat. :D
Alec Baldwin narrates it.... Umm isn't he the one who proclaimed that If GWB
were elected president that he would leave the country and live elseware.
Yea. He has a lot of credibility don't he. Ya know I have to admit, about
3 months ago The wife and I went to a Church picnic. The Pastor's wife made
about the best Fried chicken I can ever remember eating! You take your
peta "ethics" and Shove them up yer A$$. as you people are about the biggest
hypocrites on the face of the planet. You idiots tell thousands of people in
AFRICA about how wrong it is to eat meat. LOL, bout 12 years ago my
wife son and daughter were in line wating to watch the B & B circus.... My son
at the time was about 6. a "PETA" person (He He wearing leather shoes) grabbed
my kid and told him how "bad" he was to watch and support the animal
cruelty of the circus. I hit the bastard twice for grabbing my son... cops came
and the peta bastard was arrested for assault on my son. Me... I had several
dozen witnesses tell the investigators of what happened. several approached
me and told me they would of done the Same thing. You wanna rile me... bring
up your F%^ed -UP PETA views and I'll tell you what I think about it. You
bunch of idiots! How many people have you threatened this past week? Now,
please excuse me while I finish cleaning my gun for the upcoming bear hunt.
the wife made some really good DEER sausage this morning for breakfast. they
really go great with the eggs and milk! You wanna live on bean sprouts fine,
thats your business but never even consider putting your views or opinion on
this subject to me. I ain't buying it. and at least get a creditible narrator.
LONG LIVE TED NUGENT! TOM SELLECK, etc lets not forget the memory
of the Colonel, or Mr. Ray Croc !!! remember peta freak ya gotta kill it befoe
you grill it!

[-V-]

while that is your quote....how come the above verses were taken from the old testament by you? just curious
I don't have to believe in Aesop's Fairy Tales either but I can suggest to someone else that if they do believe in them they should make sure to read the Tortoise And The Hare. Besides, I told you I'm through answering your circlular questions (which I already answered in #2 of my last post).

You say you're curious but that's bull because if you were you would contemplate what's already written in response to what you keep repeating.

You wanna rile me... bring up your F%^ed -UP PETA views and I'll tell you what I think about it. You bunch of idiots!
I take a day off and you took a dump in the middle of this beautiful thread with your nasty hate rant. You're hereby "excused" from this topic. This here's PETA territory cowboy. Mosey on down to another thread and make an effort not to stink that up too.

please excuse me while I finish cleaning my gun for the upcoming bear hunt. the wife made some really good DEER sausage this morning for breakfast. they really go great with the eggs and milk!
If there is justice in this universe, creatures will visit from another planet who are as "superior" to us as we are to pigs and they'll have a really good snowdog sausage for breakfast. They will really go great with your balls over easy and your wife's milk.

You wanna live on bean sprouts fine, thats your business but never even consider putting your views or opinion on this subject to me.
Right now even John Ashcroft and George Bush make it their business and will put you in jail if you tried to abuse and eat a dog or a cat. The same will be true for a pig and a cow one day.

[-V-]

Natural

What is a "natural" diet for any animal simply means what was available/attainable for them over time. Eat what you can find or catch and if it doesn't make you sick your ancestors will adapt and eventually thrive on that source. This "natural selection" evolves into the physical attributes to support that diet (canines, leaf cutters, etc..)

Originally, gathering/foraging was the "natural" diet for our human ancestors. As they acquired intellect and tool/weapon making abilitites they became enabled to kill for food. However, a vegetarian diet is still the most "natural" for our digestive system and overall health.

"Our ancestors probably turned to eating other animals about 25 million years ago, when the earth began drying out and the herbs and nuts on which most primates feed became less plentiful. The meat habit stuck. . ." Mark Gold
The true nature of the "food chain" is diet by default not diet by design. We acquire a desire for eating animal flesh because our parents raise us that way (you weren't born with a desire to drink coffee every morning either), but as of yet, the human animal hasn't developed an instinct for it.
"You put a baby in a crib with an apple and a rabbit. If it eats the rabbit and plays with the apple, I'll buy you a new car." - Harvey Diamond
It is, however, still part of our "nature" to compete and kill even other humans, for men to spread their seed indiscriminently, etc. but we resist because of ethical considerations.

Indeed, this thread and this forum is dedicated to the application of progressive thought rather than regressive clinging to the basic and crude survival instincts of Neanderthall Man (known as Republicanism in modern society).

It is interesting and helpful to explore our origins but in regards to all of our behavior the key question is what is "right". What is "natural" is simply relative to physical evolution. The survival of our species and planet now depends more on ntellectual evolution.

[Lionhearted]

Well quite frankly after tin's posting I do not feel that I have anything left to say. The only point I was trying to make in this thread that I feel humans are omnivores, wasn't trying to justify it, just attempting to explain why I feel this way.
I would also never, ever attempt to show that either of you (tin or definitive) are in any way wrong in your beliefs, nor would I try to show that I am correct as far as eating seared animal flesh goes.
I love animals, in fact prefer them to most people that I know, however I also enjoy all they provide (food, clothing) and (for reasons far too many to list here) I do what I can to support the individual farmer and rancher. This is part of the hypocracy in my life. Another part is that while I no longer partake of intentionally killing animals, I apparently have no problem allowing others to do it for me. I still have trouble coming to grips with the fact that I will never be perfect. On the brighter side, I have never had any children so I will not be passing on my carnivorous behavior to the next generation. Perhaps, dinosaurs like myself dying off, may be what is required for the world to evolve into a better place for all concerned.
I want to thank you two for your patience and politeness with this old unrepentant meat-eater. I look forward to conversing with you on other threads.

At the risk of appearing condescending, I am curious, I feel fairly comfortable in assuming that neither of you wear leather but how do you feel about things like wool, cheese, eggs, or milk? I know a couple of vegetarians, one uses the animal byproducts like the ones I mentioned, the other has nothing to do with any animal byproducts (I guess this is what is known as vegan?). I may be what I am, but I am also curious.

[-V-]

I have family members who eat animals. All that I can ask is that they understand the issue, like you do Lion. If recreational drugs were legal I couldn't stop them from indulging in those either. (actually, drug abuse is less objectionable because one abuses themselves and it does not necessitate abusing others)

The people I distance myself from are those who try to justify their behaviors with self serving logic instead of admitting to their weaknesses.

I eat eggs from cage-free hens but I should cut that out too since they are still part of an abusive egg production system that includes the male chics being tossed in a grinder.

[-V-]

because hunting is perceived as brutal and vaguely psychopathic

the editorial got that part right.

[-V-]

You know V, I'm an atheist, but I do like some quotes from the bible, my particular favorite: "Judge not, lest ye be judged".

I think you're very passionate about your beliefs, and I respect that. But your words drip of self-righteousness, unsubstanciated by the way because unless you grow your own organic vegetables, every time you eat, you contributed to the slaughter of animals. That pasta plate did not only come from what used to be wildlife habitat, it implies the death of whatever animal got in the way of the combine that harvested that wheat field.

In short, judging others harshly (as murderers, etc) based on your own personal ethos (which you have NO RIGHT TO IMPOSE ON ANYONE) makes you little better than christian fundamentalists.

you're an interesting case Waffle. You often mix good logic with bad.

Indirect "combine accidents" have no place in a discussion of judging those who directly abuse animals. Even if it did, it would not make the pig, cow, chicken, etc. factory farmer any less immoral or you any less immoral for paying them to do their dirty deeds for your culinary pleasure.

You know full well that there are acts in which we all should JUDGE and prepare to BE JUDGED. Otherwise Blacks would still be slaves, women would not be able to vote and, in case you choose to dismiss human analogies, no one in the U.S. would be punished for torturing cats and dogs, etc..

[-V-]

in reply:

I have written thousands of words here on "animal rights" but none of them imply that they are the same rights as should be alloted to humans. All the pig needs is the basic right to "life and the pursuit of happiness". Nor did I ever imply they are "the same ethically". Animals don't have ethics. Only humans have ethics, and are obligated to apply them to all things, including their treatment animals.

=======
Even if my "piety" is based on killing LESS animals, I still lay claim to it with pride. I also share the guilt of using a gas-driven car but am partially comforted with the fact that it is a Geo Metro. The difference between us, is that instead of me trying to bring a motorcycle rider down to my level of guilt, i applaud them for trying harder than me. If someone wants a medal for using less energy or killing less animals I'll give it them, though we all owe them much more.

And I fully accept the blame and personal weakness for buying non-animal products that may inadvertently be connected to animal deaths. I hadn't considered the "collateral damage" of combines and I thank you for bringing that to my attention. Yet, I will not try to justify my consumption of "combine" harvested vegetables. I promise to begin my campaign for more responsible "combining" immediately after I help put an end to intentional exploitation and abuse of animals. Now that you brought it up, can I count on your support?

=======
No, I won't "agree to disagree" on animal abuse, no more than I would agree to disagree with slavers if this forum existed 200 years ago. I know egos are sensitive when it comes to this "inconvenient truth" but I am not shy about stepping on a few human toes if it may lead to less pickled pig's feet.

This topic is sacred to me. This sub-forum is hallowed ground. If animals can't be protected without compromise here in this virtual world what hope do they have in the real one?

At the same time I know that you and all of the people who participate in either side of this debate, or just read these threads have an above average concern for animal welfare or they wouldn't waste their time here at all. I appreciate that. And if you want a medal for that, my reply is, again, "silver or gold?"

[-V-]

Under your logic, the way I understand it, killing animals is murder
the "murder" of animals is not the real debate. If you were stranded on an island with no other source of food except for a wild pig even PETA would not brand you a "murderer".

Also, combine killings is not the issue here considering that the animals are free and most have the chance to get out of the way.

You'll never get my support to take away my chicken wings

"Chicken wings" however, is precisely the animal issue of our lifetime, but there aren't two sides to every issue and this is one of them. Again, like human slavery, there is only right on one side, wrong on the other. Our laws support your dirty little addiction to the wings of abused baby birds for now, but though it will take many more lifetimes, human laws will eventually require that even non-human animals who don't make good pets are treated humanely, regardless of how they taste in hot sauce.

Ever heard the expression "You can catch more flies with honey"?
unfortunately, a kinder, gentler me or PETA is simply more easily ignored. Besides, honey is an exploitation of bees ;)

[Jennifer_SFBA]

I share a special affinity with animals, both wild and domestic. In the way of native American Indian spiritual hunting practices - a spiritually acknowledged offering, and only out of need for food, clothing, etc. would I personally take any animal's life. Fruits and nuts and grains would be my first choice of foods for sustenace. I could very happily live from fruits alone, sooooo good!

Maybe its' people who are over populated. The New World Order is convinced of it and do they ever have plans for us!

[Lionhearted]

WP,

Manbeef indeed! No call to be flippant! (geez I wish there was a sarcastic font) We progressives (or liberals if you prefer) are extremely tolerant of others beliefs. At least in your case, being young there is likely "hope" for you. Me? I'm gonna have myself a burger. :twisted: :D
Afterwards, a cigarette or two.

[-V-]

Are you saying we might see human mcnuggets soon Jen?

Manbeef indeed!...Me? I'm gonna have myself a burger.

if the earth is visited by a species that is as "advanced" over us as we currently are to chickens, and they share your ethical positions on what constitutes food, the only other question will be...

"would you like a side order of LionHeart with
your WafflePudding, Mr. Plutonian?"
:eek:

[-V-]

Then what is your debate?

the following 3 questions speak to the heart of this debate. Can you answer them?

1. why do you pay someone to abuse an animal their whole life then slaughter them for your meal when you don't need their flesh and it is healthier for you to not eat their flesh? (and there are plenty of healthy foods that do not directly or indirectly kill animals)

2. since dogs and cats are also not sapient (wise) would you pay someone to abuse them their whole life and slaughter them also?

3. if yes, would you abuse a cat or dog their whole life and slaughter them yourself if no one would do it for you?

I won't ask if you have a cat or dog and if you would abuse and eat your own because we all know people would never treat their own pets that way, just like war hawks would never send their own kids to war.

[Wafflepudding]

1.- Because I like eating meat and there's no place where I can buy meat from animals treated humanely. I pay them to provide me with meat (which is already dead and will only spoil on the shelf if not bought by someone else), not to stuff the animal in a small cage and feed him parts of other animals. As I said before, if I could ensure the animal had a nicer life at the exchange of a higher price I'd pay it. It's also damn impractical to eat only vegan.

2.- I already said my part on the abuse bit. Yeah, sure, I'd buy cat McNuggets or hot dogs if they had good taste.

3.- Again, abuse, already explained. Yeah.

And last but not least, between the possible guilt I could feel or having to eat only vegetables and plant matter day, after day, after day, hell I choose whatever guilt you want to toss on me to make yourself feel nobler.

[-V-]

thank you for answering #1 and #2 honestly Wafflepudding.

[Jane of Arc]

Let's go back to the idea of an alien race on Earth that consumes humans. (Ever wonder where all those millions of missing people go?) I can guarantee both Lion and Pudding would beg for their lives profusely as they were herded into a room of humans. I can guarantee they would watch in horror as person after person got a meat hook in the eye and was lifted up by a chain. I'm sure they would let out terrifying screams as they saw their family members begging for mercy as they were skinned alive and loaded onto a conveyor belt that fed them into a giant meat grinder. (Ever go to a slaughter house/ meat processing plant?)

Would Lion and Pudding want their lives to be respected? Would they want this species to view them as something other than a food source? Would they want this species to treat them with compassion? You bet your sweet bippy they would.

I use to eat meat. I use to make fun of vegetarians. I use to get into playing head games with them. I didn't have a clue. I was an arrogant, yuppy bitch. It wasn't until I was put in the position of selecting a living pig to roast on a spit who begged, I meaned screamed for his life, that I woke the hell up. I defended the pig. Nobody ate pig on the beach that night in the Caribbean. Now, I'm a vegetarian and I'm still an arrogant, yuppy bitch, but with a bit more understanding, compassion and respect for those beings amongst us who can't defend themselves. These living beings you eat really want to live their lives and not be your dinner.

Just food for thought. :)

[Lionhearted]

Let's go back to the idea of an alien race on Earth that consumes humans. (Ever wonder where all those millions of missing people go?) I can guarantee both Lion and Pudding would beg for their lives profusely as they were herded into a room of humans. I can guarantee they would watch in horror as person after person got a meat hook in the eye and was lifted up by a chain. I'm sure they would let out terrifying screams as they saw their family members begging for mercy as they were skinned alive and loaded onto a conveyor belt that fed them into a giant meat grinder. (Ever go to a slaughter house/ meat processing plant?)

I can practically guarantee that I would not. In order to beg for one's life, one must care, and quite frankly I am beyond caring about anything any more. And for the record, I worked on the killfloor at a slaughterhouse one summer, (though I did not actually kill) if that did not turn me into a vegan, nothing will.

[-V-]

thank you both for your testimonials. both add clarity to this issue and both are chilling

[Jane of Arc]

The issue of eating "lower" life forms touches the core of our humanity. And I usually don't preach my position. God knows I was a big time meat-eater myself for much of my life. And I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable. But, at the same time animals can't defend themselves and I feel the need to stand up for them.

Jen ~ You are my soul sister. Someone I have great respect for. You have a developed consciousness I admire.

Lion ~ I also think highly of you. You're an incredibly sensitive, thoughtful man. Your post was sad. Almost depressed. And I wonder why you've stopped caring? My heart goes out to you.

Puddin' ~ You're new and we're just getting to know you. But you're really growing on me. I think you're smart beyond your years. What I was asking you to do in my last post was to not rationalize the experience, but rather search your own humanity. And Puddin' ... it's Jane, not Joan. :sunny:

And ~V~ You're simply the best. Always. Thank you once again for providing this service for us all. None of us should forget the wonderful work you do everyday.

[Michael DeM]

I wish I had gotten here sooner. I've been especially busy in the last few weeks. I want to address the combine issue for a minute. Just based on what I've heard from people who live on farms, incidents of animals getting killed by combines are indeed pretty rare. Even if I were to go along with the idea that animals get killed by combines on a regular basis, the ethics of the situation would be somewhat similar to the ethics of driving a car. I'm not sure what the exact statistic is, but a great many people die each year from car accidents. Yet, we still drive our cars knowing that sooner or later someone is going to get killed or seriously injured. It may not necessarily be you or me, but someone is going to get hurt with all the cars out there on the road. Every time we get in our cars, we take a risk with somebody's life, whether it's ourselves, the passengers, the other drivers, or pedestrians. Does that make us unethical? Not necessarily. Cars have become a regular part of civilization and our way of life. Humans would probably be a lot worse off without them (leaving out the emissions factor). By all means, precautions should be taken to ensure safety, but there is always a little risk involved. The same could be said of using combines or any other form of large equipment for that matter.

Likewise, growing organics in your backyard could be compared to riding a bicycle to work.

[Hokon Cazalet]

The issue of eating animals is difficult, but it seems increasing more difficult to justify.

Utilitarianism (produce the greatest pleasure possible)
Clearly the pleasure of eating food is far less than the pleasure that the animal could have had in its life (remember pleasure from food is of the lowest quality, so it can be easily overruled by even the lowest forms of animals).

Kantian Deontology (Act always under universal laws)
This is more difficult, on one hand it seems quite clear, animals cannot even think of duty, so morality seems totally out of place to them. Yet when one reads eariler works of Kant, rationality seems distinctly something animals can do (animals can understand things at a very basic level). So morality might extend to animals (although probably not insects, I doubt they understand much of anything at all).

However to state "if we don't include animals, might humans get excluded?" is a gross simplification of the issue. The issue with aliens also can be easily avoided. Human beings can have abstract rational thoughts, which seems to be where "ought" does indeed come from (if it exists objectively at all). However there may indeed be a very human way to include animals.

David Hume mentioned that morality was merely "sentiment", if morality is simply our feelings of affection for another, many animals do the same, so they rightly should be included in this ethic of sentiment (this is to the moral subjectivists out there).

[seekingaction]

They are for human use, not to be abused.

[-V-]

They are for human use, not to be abused.

well, at least you're half right.

[KRITER]

Animals arent here for us to use.