[Illumin]

This is a wonderful article exploring Smithian Economics and how it facilitates business and politics insatiable need to accumulate more assets without ethical consequence.

http://www.g-r-e-e-d.com/GREED.htm

Has anyone ever seen the documentary called " Century of Self? Great documentary.
Here is a link for those who have time to watch it. Pay attention to who bankrolled Edward Béarnaise, Freud’s American nephew.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=8953172273825999151&q=century+of+self

I think there is more to do in America than to pick political doctrines and then treat it like a football team like I am seeing on this site. America is in serious trouble. An empire does not have a very long lifespan and America is becoming an empire and this aspiration has gained momentum since the birth of Neo-Liberalism now being utilized at the moment by Neo-Conservatives, which were right of center by the way some even leaning in a leftist direction, and Democrats the like. The Rockefellers and Rothschild’s as well as the strong family roots in England have designed and built a system for the purpose of global domination. America is doing exactly what a country that has been designed to take over the world would do. This freedom and liberty that has been bandied about is a false security and has no basis of reality. Your money means nothing if they decide it means northing, Your economic status is exactly what they, whom some call “the Illuminati” which may seem romantic at first but is a reference to their occult leanings, decides what it is going to be. The Fed apologized for the Depression years ago. They created the depression by holding back the printing of currency. They always print money before a war. Here's video about the Federal Bank Reserve that is not federal nor a reserve at all. Then talk to me about there being no such thing as the Illuminati.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-466210540567002553&q=Money%2C+Banking+and+the+Federal+Reserve

[FDRfollower]

Hi Illumin. Welcome to POL, you've noticed the bickering, huh. :D

They may be the wannabe "Gods of Olympus", but as long as the United States remains a constitutional republic, its a threat to the existance of the Oligarchy.

As Smith states himself:
The administration of the great system of the universe ... the care of the universal happiness of all rational and sensible beings, is the business of God and not of man. To man is allotted a much humbler department, but one much more suitable to the weakness of his powers, and to the narrowness of his comprehension: the care of his own happiness, of that of his family, his friends, his country.... But though we are ... endowed with a very strong desire of those ends, it has been intrusted to the slow and uncertain determinations of our reason to find out the proper means of bringing them about. Nature has directed us to the greater part of these by original and immediate instincts. Hunger, thirst, the passion which unites the two sexes, and the dread of pain, prompt us to apply those means for their own sakes, and without any consideration of their tendency to those beneficent ends which the great Director of nature intended to produce by them.

From the theory of moral sentiments, (or should that be titled "immoral sentiments")

Of course, on the other side of the coin, that which looks for the greater good for the greatest number of people is the Hamiltonian system, or American system as coined by Henry Clay and Mathew Carey. In the roots of that, you find Colbert and Leibniz, enemies of the Venetian/Anglo/Dutch financial oligarchy. Its not very mysterious, and they're not very smart.

[-V-]

Welcome Illumin and thank you for your insights and links, which I will have to explore further.

[Illumin]

Hello all and thank you for the warm reception. it is intrersting FDRFollower that you referenced the Hamltonian System which suggests speed is independant from velocity utilizing within its formula time and distance as variables. Please elaborate. It is true these families consider world control to fall under dynastic conditions. Interesting.

[MAGI]

This is a wonderful article exploring Smithian Economics and how it facilitates business and politics insatiable need to accumulate more assets without ethical consequence.

http://www.g-r-e-e-d.com/GREED.htm



Thanks Illumin for this great url. I'm not able to access the other two with my PC connection but will when I get to a source that can.
:sunny:

[FDRfollower]

Hello all and thank you for the warm reception. it is intrersting FDRFollower that you referenced the Hamltonian System which suggests speed is independant from velocity utilizing within its formula time and distance as variables. Please elaborate. It is true these families consider world control to fall under dynastic conditions. Interesting.


Hmmm. Are you trying to fit Liebnizian monads within a Cartesian straightjacket?

Now, I've read Hamiltons 3 reports to Congress on banking, credit, and industry, although, I've got to read them again they're so difficult, but I'm trying to place your mathematical formula within a dynamic system, and i'm not getting it. Who made that hypothesis?

The idea of dynastic families imposing on all else, in these times, is a disgusting idea. You can see their disgusting handiwork in genocidal policies like Henry Kissingers report NSSM200, which lays out why the "west" has to exterminate lesser races for control over "resources" :mad:

[Jane of Arc]

Excellent first post Illumin! Welcome!!! I've started reading your links ... there's a lot there indeedy. EVERYONE MUST WATCH THE FEDERAL RESERVE VIDEO. omg! :eek:

I have a question. I've read a lot on the Trilateral Commission, The Bilderbergers, The Council on Foreign Relations, etc., but I don't have a clear grasp on who and what the Illuminati are. Can you elaborate Illumin, please?

[JamesP]

I think there is more to do in America than to pick political doctrines and then treat it like a football team like I am seeing on this site.


A bit of elaboration, as well, on "more to do" would be "illuminating".

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Welcome Illumin! It's wondeful to have you here. YEAH! Hi, -V-, Jane, MAJI, FDRFollower, and James.

The link below is one of the best links I have come across about who the Illumunati are and how they are organized.

http://www.whale.to/b/300.html

I have and recommend John Coleman's book, "The Story of the Committee of 300." John Coleman is way right wing. He's done his homework on the illuminati.

James, you asked about what can be done. The illuminati are well heeled owning not only banks, but the financial reserve systems of the world. They are well organized having their own political structure that functions outside of legitimate governments. Like mafia chieftains, they don't do dirty work. They engage people like Henry Kissinger to do that for them, and they persistantly practice occult black arts. Their object is to achieve one world government under satanic control. Some of the illuminati are involved with the drug and sex trades and mass mind control to furthur their satanic purposes. With that, what would you suggest We, the people do for an antidote? I have ideas. I'd like to hear yours.

[Jane of Arc]

Jennifer~

I was reading the list of 'targets' (goals) of the Illuminati by Dr. Coleman provided in your link below, but when I read the following a red flag was thrown down on the racetrack of my mind and all my speeding thoughts came to an abrupt stop. My brain said, "Huh?":

"12. To introduce new cults and continue to boost those already functioning which include rock music gangsters such as the Rolling Stones (a gangster group much favored by European Black Nobility), and all of the Tavistock-created rock groups which began with the Beatles."

Huh?

I'm sorry but if there's anything in this world that's pure, divine and unsatanic ... it's the Beatles.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Hi, Jane.

People's background work into the illuminati and the illuminati's goals is not 100%. Unless people researching the illuminati were the illuminati themselves, how would they know all there is to know about them and with 100% accuracy?

As for the Beatles, I have an ax to grind with them. I was heavily involved with the folk music and the social political movements of the 60's. Folk music was very powerful and very effective in helping to lead our social political movements forward. I was Extremely upset when the Beatles became NOT big, but HUGE in America really over night completely displacing folk music and all that folk music had been doing progressively in America. Following the Beatles there were the Monkeys, Jefferson Airplane, etc., etc., etc. who ultimately got the United States to where music is today.

I pointed out that John Coleman is way right wing, but that he had done his illuminati homework. Tracking down numerous liniages, not ones own, requires very detailed and time consuming work. Doing that work does NOT mean that the researchers looking into the background of the illumiunati have it all 100% correct. It does mean they are trying to uncover truth about an extremely powerful force in our world, that they are working very hard at it, and that they are able to support as well as possible, considering bias thrown in for good measure (like religious bias), the who, what, where, how and why of the illuminati. The link I provided about the illuminati provides the support of many other sources other than just a singular or very limited point of view. That alone is rare and extraordinary. I truly do appreciate their efforts doing that very important work whoever they are who does it. Most of the illuminati research is being done by traditional Christians though David Icke who is not at all one of those has done a tremendous job researching the illuminati. Unfortunately, David's work is not so comprehensively available for free on the internet. People have to buy David's books and videos and pay to go to his lectures to really get David's work. I have most of what David Icke has produced and that I was easily able to afford with the savings I achieved by unplugging from television cable in 1992 and that I have not paid for since that time at, SAY, savings of $30.00 per month X 12 months = $360.00 per year X 14 years = $5,040.00 in savings.

Well, Jane, I hope that helps explain the situation in relation to that concern you have.

[Jane of Arc]

Hi Jennifer~

The reason the Beatles hit the world like a musical tidal wave was because of their 'tonal divineness.' They used chord changes, harmonies and melodies like no one had ever done before. These tones rang deep into people's souls. "All you need is love." Then came the endless words of love, peace and hope. "And in the end, the love you make is equal to the love you take." After the initial, wonderful pop songs came years of powerful social messages that started a cultural revolution around the world. "Give peace a chance."

Although I can't prove it ... I think John Lennon was assassinated. He came out of retirement to do more music and he was silenced before he could start any more 'trouble.' He was a threat to "evil", not satanic as Coleman wrongfully portrays. John Lennon was a man of peace.

And the Beatles aren't responsible for where music is today. On the contrary ... the mass social and political uprisings of the 60's and the 70's scared the hell out of the 'powers that be' and large corporations started buying up and monopolizing all the labels, as well as the radio stations. The great social music from the folk artists and rock artists has mostly been silenced by corporate control.

Thanks Jennifer for bringing your reseach and insights to this forum about things that are unusual. Your perspective is truly appreciated. I'll keep checking out the info on the Illiminati with my "Eyes Wide Open." :thumbup:

[FDRfollower]

I'm afraid that Jennifer is correct on this one Jane D'arc. The Beatles were not a force for positive change, and there are ties to satanic movements, which come in during the murder of Lennon.

Maybe you have to look at the broader historical context of what was happening, instead of what you experienced.

I find that this tends to frazzle baby boomers a LOT, the IDEA that The Beatles :eek: were part of an operation by establishment psychological warfare units like Tavistock.

http://www.superunicorn.com/erik/uploaded_images/beatlemania-783942.jpg

Does this look like a scene of rationality?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39444000/jpg/_39444740_beatlemania300ok.jpg

To me, this looks like people under severe pyschological breakdown. This was taking place immediately after the assassination of president Kennedy, don't forget.

One of the members of Tavistock, William Sargent, wrote a book "The Battle For The Mind", which discusses various methods of mass social control, like voodoo rituals, snake handling churchs, and yes, beatlemania. Read it yourself. There are others too, who were involved in government sponsored "cultural warfare" projects. Allen Dulles and the CIA were running operations like MK-Ultra (remember, the mass distribution of drugs through the rock culture), and the Congress For Cultural Freedom. People like Theadore Adorno ran operations like "the Radio Project" in the 30-40's studying methods of inducing mass infantilism in line with British establishment figures like HG Wells, Aldous Huxley and Bertrand Russell who were writing on how to induce people to be slaves and enjoy their slavery. There's more, but I'm out of time. Lets continue though, this looks like a fun avenue to delve into.

[haus]

This thread is just weird.

Weird is fine. I'm an ardent supporter of weirdness. But as an ardent supporter of weirdness (on my last trip I wrote a prayer to Eris in the Discordian Hand on a post-it note to cheer myself up) I'm getting a vibe that a lot of stuff is being misrepresented here.

With the caveat to please not mistake brevity for dismissiveness, here are some random notes:

1) Modern Satanism, with all its warts, was concieved for two reasons. One, to deprogram christian guilt/mores by lampooning the trappings of the church (the "black mass"). And two, to make Anton LaVey (born Anthony Levey?) some cash.

The Satanism of the Elizabethan age was concieved to make for fun parties. Google "Ben Franklin Hellfire Club." It's interesting reading.

2) "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley is a cautionary tale about government mind-control, it's not a technical manual. It's a useful prism to view society through. I read it twice last year to try to clear the mind.

3) Saying the Beatles music is a force of evil is like saying a pizza is bad. It depends how you use them. There is a good argument that it induces infantilism as used by Huxley. The interesting argument, from my point of view, is whether it's a bad thing. I'd say that the desire for instant gratification fostered in the '60's is directly linked to the two most lasting gifts of the generation: a legacy of protest, and the sexual revolution.

There are standard arguments about mass media that can and do fill volumes. There are standard arguments which focus specifically on non-interactive media. But if there's anything that distinguishes the Beatles from, say Faranelli and Paganini, I'd like to see it. I had a reaction like that to mass media today: while watching CSPAN-2.

4) The Illuminati argument requires a lot more structure to make sense. The first question I'd ask is "Which Illuminati?" The Bavarian Illuminati were a aetheist offshoot of German Freemasons in the, er, early Renaissance. As an aetheist and a Freemason, I have a hard time imagining Bush as a member of this type of organization.

I know all about the "Skull and Bones" boys, and am sure that there is a parent organization. I buy 100% that there's a Trilateral Commission link. But if these bozos call themselves Illuminati, they deserve to be kicked in the balls. It's kind of insulting.

I'll throw out one more item on this: there's a really good reason the original Illuminati were a secret society. The same reason that the Freemasons were. That is this: the Vatican had a hit out on them from 12 -- boy, I used to know this -- 1231, I think, to the Vatican II Council's Closure in 1965.

5) It's 40-ish days until election day. Remember, remember the 7th of November.

[Jane of Arc]

You're right haus, this thread is WAY weird. But, that's fine.

I just spent hours reading up on this subject.

I don't think anyone in this room could really know the truth or fiction about the Illuminati, Tavistock, Satanists or whether they successfully brainwashed millions of teenagers around the world using the Beatles to prepare them for the New World Order or not. And if you were part of this secret elite with first-hand knowledge, please share.

Just because people say things, claim things, write their opinions in books, stick ideas on the internet ... it doesn't make them whole facts. In my reading on this topic I found it highly subjective with tons of contradictions and enormous amounts of hearsay. And wouldn't it make sense that a secret group hell-bent on controlling world events with mind control would spew out endless, contradicting misinformation? Yes, it would.

If there was a mind control experiment "zapping" the youth of America ... well, it backfired. If LSD was spread to make people lose control, well in small doses it more than likely liberated the people instead. Otherwise, they would still be pushing it on the masses. The Native Americans used psychedelics to gain entryway into spiritual realms.

FDR, you say the Beatles were not a force for positive change? I disagree. The Beatles and other musical groups gave a voice to the peace movement, helped to end a war, helped to expand civil rights, gay rights, and women's rights.

And on a musical level ... I come from a family of classically trained musicians ... and trust me the Beatles music alone was positive change. My sister is a college professor who teaches classical music and plays in a well-known symphony. They perform Bach & Beethoven right next to the Beatles.

And on a spiritual level ... the Beatles music makes people feels good. It's brilliant. It's enjoyable. It's beautiful. It's exciting. It's peaceful. It's magical.


To continue the metaphor ... if it looks like pizza, smells like pizza, tastes like pizza ... it's probably pizza. Beautiful music will endure as simply beautiful music. And that will always be positive.

[-V-]

Jane is all over the Beatle thing. Their music was inspiring poetry put to melodic, memorable music and it influenced a generation and beyond in profound ways.

During the battle of election 2000 I started corresponding with an old friend in my hometown who had surprisingly turned into a Bushy. When I reminded him that he was a big Beatles/Lennon fan when we were growing up and what they sung about it did seem to snap him out of the darkness back into the light. I don't know how long the antidote lasted but America could sure use more Beatles and less gangsta rap on the airwaves today.

(more on the decline of left leaning pop culture in this thread
http://progressivesonline.com/showthread.php?t=65&highlight=culture)

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Hi, haus.



1) Modern Satanism, with all its warts, was concieved for two reasons. One, to deprogram christian guilt/mores by lampooning the trappings of the church (the "black mass"). And two, to make Anton LaVey (born Anthony Levey?) some cash.

The Satanism of the Elizabethan age was concieved to make for fun parties. Google "Ben Franklin Hellfire Club." It's interesting reading.

2) "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley is a cautionary tale about government mind-control, it's not a technical manual. It's a useful prism to view society through. I read it twice last year to try to clear the mind.

3) Saying the Beatles music is a force of evil is like saying a pizza is bad. It depends how you use them. There is a good argument that it induces infantilism as used by Huxley. The interesting argument, from my point of view, is whether it's a bad thing. I'd say that the desire for instant gratification fostered in the '60's is directly linked to the two most lasting gifts of the generation: a legacy of protest, and the sexual revolution.

There are standard arguments about mass media that can and do fill volumes. There are standard arguments which focus specifically on non-interactive media. But if there's anything that distinguishes the Beatles from, say Faranelli and Paganini, I'd like to see it. I had a reaction like that to mass media today: while watching CSPAN-2.

4) The Illuminati argument requires a lot more structure to make sense. The first question I'd ask is "Which Illuminati?" The Bavarian Illuminati were a aetheist offshoot of German Freemasons in the, er, early Renaissance. As an aetheist and a Freemason, I have a hard time imagining Bush as a member of this type of organization.

I know all about the "Skull and Bones" boys, and am sure that there is a parent organization. I buy 100% that there's a Trilateral Commission link. But if these bozos call themselves Illuminati, they deserve to be kicked in the balls. It's kind of insulting. ...

Satanism practiced by Illuminati who are Adepts is real, not any kind of Christian spoof. See below the free, fast connection, internet video interview of Arizona Wilder, one time mind controlled satanic high priestess of the Illuminati by David Icke:

http://www.whale.to/b/wilder.html

Anyone interested in learning Strega ritual witchcraft (equally powerful white, rather black magic to confront and even reverse black magicians' evil perpetrations in our world) may go to the following website:

http://www.mysticalblend.com/shopping_cart/index.htm

Mind control written about my Aldus Huxley in "Brave New World" is palid in the light of the real and true experiences of Cathy O'Brian and Mark Phillips in their book, "Trance-Formation of America," first self published in 1995, now in its' 13TH printing and licensed internationally in many languages that exposes torturous U.S. government CIA mind control committed against otherwise "free" U.S. citizens without their permission or consent. Companion to that book is "Access Denied For Reasons of National Security." "Trance-Formation of America" is now also available in video form. Please see Cathy and Mark's website below for more information about mind control in America and to order their materials:

http://www.trance-formation.com/

As for the Illuminati, David Icke's work is most impressive to me. I have not found anyone in my research about the Illuminati who has gone into more depth about the Illuminati than David, and his work is simply superb. In addition, I found him to be uncommonly, intellectually open and honest and, I would say, David was spiritually led to knowledge worldwide he has attained and that he was also spiritually facilitated in his teaching of what he has learned. David Icke's website is below:

http://www.davidickebooks.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=30

Below is a behind the scenes documentary video that includes symbolism of Freemasons in Washington D.C. beginning with money and also quotes highest level Freemasons historically.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-10746448892778329

The point about the Beatles is being missed. The Beatles were not satanic. The Illuminati are satanic (reptilian aliens are at their head, and it is they who they serve), have an agenda for a one world governement/New World Order and have tentacles everywhere that certainly include ones for mass mind control for the purpose, in part, of neutralizing political action that could lead to political, social and spiritual progress that go beyond knowledge of human 5 senses reality and that are not in line with the Illuminati's objectives.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

haus, I was a social activist beginning in the 60's. Your summary portrayal of the 60's does not give people of the 60's their due, "I'd say that the desire for instant gratification fostered in the '60's is directly linked to the two most lasting gifts of the generation: a legacy of protest, and the sexual revolution"

In the 60's, it was common for people who were activists to live communally. I lived in a 1 bedroom cottage with 8 other people who were spiritual and social activists. Some worked days, some swing shift and others worked graveyard. Several of my roomates were scuba divers who caught food we ate, one was mechanically gifted who built a vehicle transmission that reached 50 miles per hour at idle speed, I was a folk musician and song writer and the cook. We all worked on the cleaning and laundry. Two main social issues were our focus, ending the war in Vietnam and the widening of that war in southeast Asia and equal civil rights for African Americans. Unlike today, we certainly did protest; by the millions. We put ourselves in harm's way in both struggles. People who were activists of the 60's died protesting that war at Kent State University (Please see the link below).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

People who were activists of the 60's died registering African Americans to vote and protesting for African Americans' right to be free and equal in all respects to white people in American society. Both causes were moral and spritual in nature, and we pursued them that way with great passion. The "sexual revolution" and drugs were there in the 60's during the time of those anti-war Vietnam and civil rights struggles. They went along with the idea of freedom and the right of people to make their own choices (Please see the Timothy Leary link below):

http://deoxy.org/leary.htm



January 7, 2005

First Murder Charge in '64 Civil Rights Killings of 3

By ROBERT D. McFADDEN

The most infamous unresolved case from America's civil rights struggle four decades ago - the 1964 abduction and killing of three voter-registration volunteers by nightriders on a lonely rural road in Mississippi - was revived last night with the arrest of a longtime leader of the Ku Klux Klan, the authorities announced.

The suspect, Edgar Ray Killen, a 79-year-old preacher who, investigators say, organized and led two carloads of Klansmen on the night of the killings, was arrested at his home in Philadelphia, Miss., and charged with the murders of Michael Schwerner, Andrew Goodman and James Chaney, Sheriff Larry Myers of Neshoba County said.

The sheriff said there would be more arrests in the notorious case, which helped to cement Mississippi's image as a haven of hatred and violence in the 1960's, when black churches, homes and businesses were firebombed and civil rights volunteers were beaten by white mobs. The case was the subject of several books and was dramatized in the 1988 movie "Mississippi Burning."

The murders provoked an outpouring of national support for the civil rights movement, and in the ensuing investigations federal officials gathered enough evidence to prosecute 18 Klansmen in 1967 on charges of violating the civil rights of the three slain men.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Continued:



Seven Klansmen were convicted and sentenced to prison terms ranging from 3 years to 10 years, although none served more than 6 years. Mr. Killen was released after there was a deadlock by an all-white jury.

But the state never brought murder charges in the case, and it was not until 1999 that the state's attorney general reopened the matter, after The Clarion-Ledger of Jackson, Miss., published exposés, including excerpts from a secret interview given to a state archivist by Sam Bowers, the onetime imperial wizard of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, America's most violent white supremacist group in the 1960's.

In the interview, Mr. Bowers, who was serving a life sentence for ordering the 1966 firebombing in Hattiesburg, Miss., that killed Vernon Dahmer, a prominent civil rights leader, said he had thwarted justice in the killings of Mr. Schwerner, Mr. Goodman and Mr. Chaney.

Mr. Bowers also said in the interview that he did not mind going to jail because a fellow Klansman had gotten away with murder.

A grand jury last year found sufficient evidence after 40 years to go ahead with the case, and its indictments led to Mr. Killen's arrest.

The slain civil rights workers - Mr. Chaney, 21, a black man from Meridian, Miss., and two white New Yorkers, Mr. Schwerner, 24, a Cornell graduate, and Mr. Goodman, 20, who had attended Queens College - were participating in what became known as Freedom Summer, the climax of an intensive voter-registration drive in the South.

Mr. Goodman's mother, Dr. Carolyn Goodman, said in a telephone interview from her apartment on the Upper West Side, "This was something that had to happen - there was no question."

Dr. Goodman, 89, has been actively involved in civil rights work since her son's death and has just completed a documentary about the killings, "Freedom Now." She said that her two other sons were out of the country and that she had not yet spoken with them about the arrest.

Dr. Goodman spoke from the apartment where, one day in 1964, Andrew told her that he was going to the South to do civil rights work.

"He said, 'Mom, you know, I was raised in an era of terrible things that have happened in my lifetime, so I have to go,' " she recalled.

She added: "It wasn't easy for us. But we couldn't talk out of both sides of our mouths. So I had to let him go."

Reached by phone at her home in Willingboro, N.J., Mr. Chaney's mother, Fannie Lee Chaney, said, "Mighty long time." Of those who took part in the killings, Mrs. Chaney said, "Most of them dead about now."

The victims were working with the Congress of Racial Equality at a community center in Meridian. Mr. Chaney had been a volunteer there for months. Mr. Schwerner had gone to Mississippi with his wife, Rita, in January 1964, having been hired as a CORE field worker. Mr. Goodman, a graduate of the Walden School on Manhattan's Upper West Side, arrived in Mississippi only a day before he was killed.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Continued:



On June 21, 1964, the three men set out together in a Ford station wagon to inspect the ruins of a black church near Philadelphia, Miss., that had been firebombed by the Klan. Mr. Chaney was driving. In the afternoon, they were arrested for "speeding" by a Neshoba County deputy sheriff, Cecil Price. They were held at the sheriff's office in Philadelphia for several hours.

During those hours, according to testimony at the federal trial, Deputy Price sent out word that the three in custody included a man who had been designated Goatee - the Klan's code for Mr. Schwerner, who had a goatee and had been marked for death by Mr. Bowers. Mr. Schwerner had infuriated the Klan by organizing a boycott of a white-owned variety store until it hired a black, and by his intensive work to register black voters.

According to testimony in the federal trial, Deputy Price held the men long enough for Mr. Killen to round up a group of Klansmen. The civil rights workers were released from jail and were never seen again, although their subsequent movements were later established.

Leaving the jail that night, they drove down Route 19, tailed by Deputy Price and two carloads of Klansmen. After a frantic chase, they were caught and taken to an isolated spot on Rock Cut Road, where they were killed: Mr. Schwerner on Mr. Bowers's orders, and Mr. Chaney and Mr. Goodman because they were witnesses.

Mr. Chaney was beaten to death, while Mr. Schwerner and Mr. Goodman were each shot once in the chest. Their station wagon was set ablaze, and the bodies were buried under an earthen dam on the farm of a prominent Philadelphian, Olen Burrage.

Six weeks later, after one of the largest searches ever undertaken by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, helped by 200 American sailors, the bodies were discovered. In the ensuing federal investigation, 19 men were arrested on charges of violating the victims' civil rights, and 18 were eventually brought to trial three years after the killings. Mr. Bowers, Mr. Price and five others were convicted; three others were released because the jury found itself deadlocked. The rest were acquitted.

Mr. Killen, the man charged last night, is one of eight suspects still alive. He was identified during the 1967 trial as the Klan leader who had received the orders from Mr. Bowers to kill Mr. Schwerner, and as the man who had coordinated the Klansmen's activities on the night of the killings. But he was released with the jury deadlocked 11 to 1 in favor of conviction. The lone holdout insisted she could never convict a preacher.

Mr. Killen's arrest followed grand jury testimony that reportedly included accounts of people who had direct knowledge of the killings. Sheriff Myers declined to comment on the proceedings, but said Mr. Killen had been arrested first because he was prominent in the case and available.

"We went ahead and got him because he was high profile and we knew where he was," the sheriff said.

Mr. Killen has always denied any involvement in the slayings. In an interview with The Clarion-Ledger last year, he spoke about the killers of the civil rights workers. "I'm not going to say they were wrong," he declared. "I believe in self-defense."

Jerry G. Killen, the suspect's brother, told The Associated Press that he had no knowledge of the arrest but was quoted as saying he thought it was "pitiful." He said his brother never mentioned the slayings. "He won't talk about it," Jerry Killen said. "I don't know if he did it or not."

Mississippi has reopened some old civil rights murder cases. In 1994, Byron de la Beckwith was convicted of the 1963 assassination of Medgar Evers, a field secretary for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.

A critical piece of evidence in the murder of the civil rights workers has been the 3,000-page transcript of the 1967 federal trial. Under the court rules in Mississippi, even the testimony of witnesses who have died or are unavailable can be put before a grand jury. Indeed, such testimony was used to convict Mr. de la Beckwith, who died in prison in 2001.

While the killings of the civil rights workers have remained in the public eye over the years, there was little progress in the case until it was reopened by Attorney General Jim Hood. Last month, an anonymous donor posted a $100,000 reward for information leading to murder charges.

Outside the grand jury room yesterday, Billy Wayne Posey, one of the men convicted in the federal trial, leaned on a cane and complained about being subpoenaed.

"After 40 years to come back and do something like this is ridiculous, like a nightmare," Mr. Posey said. He refused to talk about what he expected to be asked by the grand jury.

Efforts to bring about a trial for the murder of civil rights workers in Mississippi have been enhanced in recent years by the opening of the long-secret files of the State Sovereignty Commission, which was founded in 1956 to defend the state from "encroachment" by federal authorities. Before it was abolished in 1977, the commission monitored anyone suspected of promoting racial integration. Containing 87,000 names, the files detail a series of Klan killings in the 1960's, including those of Mr. Evers and Mr. Dahmer, as well as those of Mr. Schwerner, Mr. Chaney and Mr. Goodman.

They also detail the profound hatred that many white Mississippians held for civil rights workers. In 1964, a wave of thousands of civil rights activists, many of them white college students from the North, went to Mississippi and other states in the South as part of a broad coalition to end the political disenfranchisement of black people.





.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Continued:



Within a month of the murders, President Lyndon B. Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Jerry Mitchell contributed reporting from Mississippi for this article, and Michelle O'Donnell from New York.

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

[FDRfollower]

Jane is all over the Beatle thing. Their music was inspiring poetry put to melodic, memorable music and it influenced a generation and beyond in profound ways.


Is that true? Indulge me a minute. I know it might be difficult, but let me quote the lyrics of a few songs. I hope that you will be able to force yourself to read it through out loud, like you would with any poetry, and not sing it.

(Lennon/McCartney)

I wanna be your lover baby
I wanna be your man
I wanna be your lover baby
I wanna be your man
Love you like no other baby
Like no other can
Love you like no other baby
Like no other can

I wanna be your man, I wanna be your man
I wanna be your man, I wanna be your man

Tell me that you love me baby
Let me understand
Tell me that you love me baby
I wanna be your man
I wanna be your lover baby
I wanna be your man
I wanna be your lover baby
I wanna be your man

I wanna be your man, I wanna be your man
I wanna be your man, I wanna be your man

I wanna be your lover baby
I wanna be your man
I wanna be your lover baby
I wanna be your man
Love you like no other baby
Like no other can
Love you like no other baby
Like no other can

I wanna be your man, I wanna be your man
I wanna be your man, I wanna be your man
I wanna be your man, I wanna be your man

(Lennon/McCartney)

He's a real nowhere man
Sitting in his nowhere land
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody

Doesn't have a point of view
Knows not where he's going to
Isn't he a bit like you and me?

Nowhere Man, please listen
You don't know what you're missing
Nowhere Man, the world is at your command

He's as blind as he can be
Just sees what he wants to see
Nowhere Man can you see me at all?

Nowhere Man, don't worry
Take your time, don't hurry
Leave it all till somebody else lends you a hand

Doesn't have a point of view
Knows not where he's going to
Isn't he a bit like you and me?

Nowhere Man, please listen
You don't know what you're missing
Nowhere Man, the world is at your command

He's a real Nowhere Man
Sitting in his nowhere land
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody


(Lennon/McCartney)

Why don't we do it in the road? Mm
Why don't we do it in the road? Ah
Why don't we do it in the road? Mm
Why don't we do it in the road? Mm
No one will be watching us
Why don't we do it in the road?

Why don't we do it in the road?
Why don't we do it in the road?
Why don't we do it in the road?
Why don't we do it in the road?
No one will be watching us
Why don't we do it in the road?

Ooh

Why don't we do it in the road?
Why don't we do it in the road?
Why don't we do it, do it in the road?
Why don't we do it in the road?
No one will be watching us
Why don't we do it in the road?

Now, from what I can tell, just by reading these, is its pretty banal stuff, and rather existentialist. :confused:

[Jane of Arc]

Hi FDR ~

You KNOW I think you're the BoMB ... well, if you don't ... it's true. You are! I think you're smart, incredibly insightful, well-educated, brave, noble and one bad-ass historian ... and I make sure to read every thing you have to say ...

BUT

when it comes to this issue ... well ... you're wrong.


I am a musician from a family of musicians. I'm classically trained, as is everyone in my family. I've taught music. I'm a published composer. I've recorded music. I've been on the radio endless times. I've produced music ... etc. etc. etc. I understand all music upside down and back again.

1. Popular lyrics that are designed to be sung and are not meant to be spoken or recited. Rap or even Bob Dylan and others use spoken words for a certain effect. But when the voice starts to sing to a beat the repetition takes on another property. Words are repeated intentionally, just as the same chords are repeated intentionally.

2. I could list you millions and millions and millions of song lyrics from all over the world in every language and from every culture that would read like mindless dribble when recited or read by using speech. Yet songs like "Why Don't We Do It In The Road?" (which is OBVIOUSLY tongue in cheek)(great SONG, by the way) has given people a good time, something to dance to, OR other songs are something to get romantic to, something to soothe them to sleep, something to cry and share to, something to make love to, something to encourage bravery, something to exercise to, something to inspire or build one up, something to just make you feel better.

3. Popular music goes back to the times of cave men beating repetitive rhythms on animal skins and singing the same sounds which all had meanings to their life situation. It's as old as time.

4. Have you ever heard of a mantra? Trust the sounds of the soul. Trust the repetition of the drum. Trust the repetition of the sounds. Trust the repetition of the words. Trust the fact that it brings people together much more than it takes people to war. Trust the fact that the shared community created by "lyrically banal" music enhances life and is a more positive power than any attempts of using popular music for mass control.

5. Mass control is much better acheived through television. ;)

6. You need to go out dancing. I'll pick you up at 6:00. LOL

[FDRfollower]

Don't hurt me!! :eek: :D

Now, my purpose was not to rag on the Beatles, it was just a convenient post to quickly get the lyrics and list them in a short time. In and of themselves, the Beatles have mearly been a few of the many witting and unwitting players in a larger "game" aimed at the ending the role of our nation to be a force for good in the world, by degrading the culture to the level that the population would accept a fascist dictatorship without strugle. Long before John, Paul, Ringo, and whatshisname were conceived, forms of music were being promoted to counter the effects of pro-republican movements around which composers like Mozart, Beethoven, and Brahms were supported. Weimar culture would give a pretty close aproximation of such a destructive cultural degredation that would pave the way for Hitler to be put in power without a fight from the "left".

2. I could list you millions and millions and millions of song lyrics from all over the world in every language and from every culture that would read like mindless dribble when recited or read by using speech.

True, BUT, if you're classically trained (and thats pretty neat, we gotta hang out some day, I think you'd love my bel canto trained Baritone voice) then you should be well aware of German Leider, which is true poetry written by real poets, set to music as a way of enhancing or improving upon the idea of what the poet intended. Mozarts setting of "Das Veilchen" by Goethe is a great example of music that really improves on a poem. Schuberts setting of “Die beiden Grenadier” by Heine also, much improving on a poem that already is a terrific attack on the stupid fanaticism of the French in going along with the destruction wrought by Napoleon. And the ultimate, of course, is Beethovens setting of Schillers "Ode to Joy". I think that's a good example of secular music.

In the area of religion, what do you think of how Bach set his Mass in B minor? What happens to the Biblical text, when Bach has the crowd calling "crucify him" in beautiful 4 part polyphony. Or how Brahms uses biblical text in his 4 Serious Songs? Or Mozarts Requiem or Handels Messiah? If performed correctly, does it not bring tears to your eyes? Does it not profoundly effect you in a positive way?

In our time, the Civil Rights movement used the Negro Spiritual as a weapon of beauty against the ugly Jim Crow culture, and that came out of a collaboration of Dvorack and Harry Burleigh, in particular, to deal with the racist stereotyping that was preventing blacks from participating in higher culture.

Or on a smaller level, think of John Jacob Niles' effort in uplifting simplistic mountain music and recomposing them up to a sort of 'white spiritual'.

In any case, we should continue. I'm very tired now and hope this didn't come out too incoherantly, at least I hope you don't think I'm some sort of musical Taliban type. :)

[Jane of Arc]

Imagine

~ John Lennon


Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isn't hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possessions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of men,
imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer,
but I'm not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one..

[MAGI]

:sunny:
Oh how we miss you, John!
Thanks Jane!