The right to bear arms: Only for conservatives?

[Wafflepudding]

While the second ammendment is usually considered a conservative cause, I happen to know quite a few anarchists, democrats, libertarians and others that support it, even those who do not own firearms personally. Some of the arguments that I've heard from them (I do not agree with some of these but I think they're worth mentioning anyway):

- A government with a monopoly on the use of deadly force is potentially dangerous. Especially OUR government.

- It is an extension of the basic human right to self-defense.

- The militia, referring to common armed citizens, was part of the checks and balances system. Eroding it is therefore fundamentally counterproductive to the system.

- Your personal safety is in your hands alone, delegating this responsability to others is unsound, partly because of the bystander effect (a few have mentioned the Kitty Genovese case).

- Concealed carry makes muggings more risky for criminals, thereby acting as a deterrent.

- It's the only difference between the moderate, hidden fascism of Dubya and open repression.

- Iraq has showed us that our army is not invincible and that an armed populace is a populace hard to occupy and conquer.

- By banning firearms instead of taking the mistique out of them for the young, we're increasing their allure (the forbidden fruit effect).

Certainly we must not echo the usual nonsense advocated by the NRA, or their opposite twins the Brady people, but some compromise points, like gun safety courses, better (not prohibitive) gun controls, more extensive background checks, etc. are worth some serious thought and discussion IMO.

[KRITER]

Im no republican.I do beleev in the 2nd amendment.I dont beleev that bs about Obama taking my guns.I heard the same about Clinton.I still hav a shot gun,and a single shot 22 rifle handed down from my Greatgrandaddy.Im a backwoods vegan.I dont hunt.Im not scared enuff to cary a gun wen Im off my property.But Iv come to hav use of my shot gun a few times, not much.Had to shoot a rabin polcat, didnt like doing it but I felt my critters was thretened.And theres no help for critters having rabies.I scared off a few hunters too.Apairently they not use to wildlife being armed.

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Now those are a few responsible uses of firearms, Kriter, so long as you didn't shoot at, or toward the hunters!

[KRITER]

No,didnt shoot at no hunters.Shot gun empty.They just take me alot more serius .Its kind of silly.

[jr2007sc]

Kriter,

You don't believe that Obama will try to take our guns? The Jews in 1930s Germany didn't believe Hitler either before the cattle cars arrived. Do you know what he did first? He passed a law making it illegal for Jews to own weapons.

I'm not comparing Obama to Hitler. But the 2nd Ammendmant is the ONLY thing that makes our other rights possible. Believe that. And Obama has made it crystal clear that he will fight to restrict the ownership of firearms.

[-V-]

Originally Posted by jr2007sc

Kriter,

You don't believe that Obama will try to take our guns? The Jews in 1930s Germany didn't believe Hitler either before the cattle cars arrived. Do you know what he did first? He passed a law making it illegal for Jews to own weapons.

I'm not comparing Obama to Hitler. But the 2nd Ammendmant is the ONLY thing that makes our other rights possible. Believe that. And Obama has made it crystal clear that he will fight to restrict the ownership of firearms.

jr, don't play dumb or the Hitler card. You know Obama, like the vast majority of liberals, would only seek to outlaw certain weapons. Conservatives already except that, in the sense that you don't complain that it is illegal for you to own a bazooka. Trust me. You'll always be capable of putting a bullet between the eyes of a burgler or a raging liberal if you feel you need to.

Gun restrictions will not lead to the demise of guns, just as Gay marriage will not lead to the demise of children.

You are displaying typical, fearful, right-wing paranoia.

If the religious right was pushing to raise the age of consent by 1 year you might disagree but you wouldn't theorize that their next move is to call for chastity belts.

[jr2007sc]

V,
How come whenever a conservative expresses any opinion, it is dismissed as "typical, fearful, right wing paranoia"? That's not an arguement. It's a punt. Wouldn't all the yelling and screaming from the left about the erosion of civil liberties by W for the past 8yrs be the "typical, fearful LEFT-wing paranoia"? Think about it.

[gentx]

The ability to protect oneself is a basic right which no one should be able to take away.

[-V-]

you got it gent. no one is trying to take away your ability to protect yourself.

[Johnny Ringo]

I carry a Glock 17, in my pick up I have a .357 with 3 Speedloaders, at home I have an 18!/2"" double barreled 12 GA, with enough pattern to take out the Chicago Bear line, so home invasions would be very UNWISE! I also have my Deer rifles and my big rifle, when I go to Canada or Alaska! All of these except my carry and vehicle gun, as well as the "sawed" are at the ready, as I have no one to be responsible to, but me!

[grammasanity]

Question, Johnny, what are you so scared of?

[grammasanity]

I am not a gun person. I have for sure shot one bullet out of a pistol, giving me the idea that if I really tried, I might learn to hit my target. I have attempted to pot pigeons with a pellet gun, because they eat my chicken feed.
My housemate has a .22, and at one time, when a sex-crazed man-mountain was stalking me, I was glad he did.
But really, at most, any of us probably only needs a varmint gun for personal use.
The catch is 'a well-regulated militia'. If we want guns for defense, we have to have a militia organized so we point them at the enemy instead of each other. And if we think we can defend ourselves with a militia against the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines, we are absolutely deluded.
The military is too big, too subservient to the big money interests, too brainwashed against the common people, too regimented, too everything. But they are the instrument of American policy.
THEREFORE: we must change American Policy. The New American Party calls for reducing military expenditure by 5% per year for ten years, before reevaluating.
The New American Party calls for an end to the export of weapons.
See the Speakeasy section at Alternet.org. Grammasanity has 3 posts there on The New American Party, including platform and suggested candidates.

[Johnny Ringo]

Originally Posted by grammasanity

Question, Johnny, what are you so scared of?

A pack of Liberals all looking like Al Franken?? Henry Waxman selling Bow Ties & Hillary on the female equivalent of SEE ALICE?

[Johnny Ringo]

Originally Posted by grammasanity

I am not a gun person. I have for sure shot one bullet out of a pistol, giving me the idea that if I really tried, I might learn to hit my target. I have attempted to pot pigeons with a pellet gun, because they eat my chicken feed.
My housemate has a .22, and at one time, when a sex-crazed man-mountain was stalking me, I was glad he did.
But really, at most, any of us probably only needs a varmint gun for personal use.
The catch is 'a well-regulated militia'. If we want guns for defense, we have to have a militia organized so we point them at the enemy instead of each other. And if we think we can defend ourselves with a militia against the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines, we are absolutely deluded.
The military is too big, too subservient to the big money interests, too brainwashed against the common people, too regimented, too everything. But they are the instrument of American policy.
THEREFORE: we must change American Policy. The New American Party calls for reducing military expenditure by 5% per year for ten years, before reevaluating.
The New American Party calls for an end to the export of weapons.
See the Speakeasy section at Alternet.org. Grammasanity has 3 posts there on The New American Party, including platform and suggested candidates.

I don't fear the Military, as the Military defends FREEDOMS, except for the ones that participated under CLARK at WACO! Its that style Govt, the one that will KILL an innocent woman holding a Baby, because the husband doesn't fit the mold of an ALL inclusive! Then you have Rambo Reno and murdering Bill Clinton, who already had 18 bodies to his credit, as they go in and torch innocent women & children!!

I talked to people in the Waco area and Koresh was in town two or three times weekly for supplies, and could have easily picked him up, but THEY wanted to show a message about subversion and the price you pay!!!

P.S. You have another WACO style POTUS in DC right now, BEWARE!!

[grammasanity]

Yeah, but why is that so scary? Way better than a fuerher with the face of an angel!

[grammasanity]

Oops, missed the reply to my longer, less frivolous post. I've been reading history lately, and it just seems to me that community works better than guns for self-defense. Granted that all governments are evil, that all Presidents have made really stupid mistakes, than every power structure is looking for a scapegoat for when things get tough. BUT: If Koresh, et. al. hadn't been stockpiling weapons, they would all still be there, like other cults of personality.

[Johnny Ringo]

Originally Posted by grammasanity

Oops, missed the reply to my longer, less frivolous post. I've been reading history lately, and it just seems to me that community works better than guns for self-defense. Granted that all governments are evil, that all Presidents have made really stupid mistakes, than every power structure is looking for a scapegoat for when things get tough. BUT: If Koresh, et. al. hadn't been stockpiling weapons, they would all still be there, like other cults of personality.

Koresh could have been picked up several times when he went to town for supplies, he was on a FIRST name basis with the Sheriff!

What EXCUSE should we give the Black Boots that shot Mrs Weaver, as she stood holding her baby and unarmed?? CLINTON wanted a message sent just as he did in Arkansas, that if your out of line, we may just KILL YOU!!

[grammasanity]

I know the boss has ultimate responsibility, but don't you suppose the officers on location had anything to do with being stupid? I really hate the pattern people have of blaming everything on the President. We hear plenty about cowboy cops and officers out of control. And if the lady thought her gender was going to protect her from that type of person (I use the term loosely) she was deluded. There are innocent victims, but did she have to stay with those guys? Did they send her out ahead of them, so she would die instead of the crazy men? I don't know what kind of delusion sends people out into the wilderness with lots of guns, but there is a law against trying to overthrow the government. Ya know????

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Well, Johnny Ringo, you've got this right:

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

What EXCUSE should we give the Black Boots that shot Mrs Weaver, as she stood holding her baby and unarmed?? CLINTON wanted a message sent just as he did in Arkansas, that if your out of line, we may just KILL YOU!!

You don't have this right:

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

I don't fear the Military, as the Military defends FREEDOMS ...

Clinton was/is a NEOCONSERVATIVE fascist. He received the Bilderberg nod before he ever ran for the office of President of the United States of America.

Background: The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878

The Posse Comitatus Act is a United States federal law (18 U.S.C. § 1385) passed on June 18, 1878, after the end of Reconstruction, with the intention (in concert with the Insurrection Act of 1807) of substantially limiting the powers of the federal government to use the military for law enforcement.

The Act was a response to, and subsequent prohibition of, the military occupation by U.S. Army troops of the former Confederate States during the ten years of Reconstruction (1867–1877) following the American Civil War (1861–1865).

The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 was designed to create a clear division between the military and domestic police forces. The act outlaws any direct involvement by the United States military in any law enforcement operation. But it also contains a provision that allows the act to be temporarily repealed in some instances. A waiver signed by the president can remove the act's provisions in cases of emergency, and this has taken place at least twice since the creation of the Delta Force.

Carter who imported 26 Bilderberg members into his cabinet, more than any other President:

The CIA School of Assassination at Fort Bragg

http://ciaschool.tripod.com/

http://science.howstuffworks.com/delta-force4.htm

http://science.howstuffworks.com/delta-force6.htm

Originally Posted by How Delta Force Works by Josh Clark

In 1978, the Delta Force and the FBI trained together in the Nevada desert, near an old nuclear test site. Known as the Joshua Junction exercise, the two groups worked together in hostage negotiation and rescue training. Since then, the FBI and its Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) has worked with Delta Force in other operations, like security details for Olympic games held in American cities -- Los Angeles in 1984 and Atlanta in 1996.

Reagan

In 1987, a wave of Cuban refugees came to the United States. Unsure about what to do with such large numbers of emigrants from a nation unfriendly to the United States, President Ronald Reagan ordered the refugees locked up in federal prisons until they could either be processed by Immigration officials or sent back to Cuba. At the federal penitentiary in Atlanta, a group of the Cuban refugees mounted an uprising. When federal agents could not control the riot, Reagan waived the Posse Comitatus Act and ordered a unit of Delta Force operators to subdue the uprising.

Clinton

In 1993, the Posse Comitatus Act was again waived, this time by President Bill Clinton. In Waco, Texas, an armed religious sect known as the Branch Davidians mounted a standoff against the FBI. Three Delta Force operators were allowed at the site of the standoff. Two served as trainers and technical advisors to the FBI on a classified piece of surveillance equipment. Another served as an observer.

This wasn't the first time the Delta Force and the FBI had seen each other in action. In 1978, the Delta Force and the FBI trained together in the Nevada desert, near an old nuclear test site. Known as the Joshua Junction exercise, the two groups worked together in hostage negotiation and rescue training. Since then, the FBI and its Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) has worked with Delta Force in other operations, like security details for Olympic games held in American cities -- Los Angeles in 1984 and Atlanta in 1996.

But this isn't necessarily the extent of Delta Force's domestic missions. (Next) ... we'll look at some shady operations -- in which some claim Delta Force took part -- that test the limits of legality, and in some cases, go beyond it. *

Delta Force Scandals, Speculations and Rumors

There is no lack of people who try to track and document Delta Force's activities. There are blogs, organizations and Web sites dedicated to exposing what some believe to be illegal and unethical acts perpetrated by Delta Force. But outside observers have an extremely difficult time proving these allegations. Even in cases where the traces left from Delta Force operations lead back to the group, news reports have a tendency to disappear.

This seems to be the case in Kingsville, Texas. Allegedly, late one night in 1999, the town was besieged by low-flying, black helicopters, which inserted a small group of Delta Force operators onto the ground. These operators stormed two unoccupied buildings, using live ammunition and burning the buildings with detonated grenades before they were exfiltrated -- removed from the scene -- by the helicopters. This live-fire exercise was codenamed Operation Last Dance [source: World Daily Net].

A Web site called World Net Daily claims that United States Army officials later said that this group had grown bored of training on base and had opted to carry out training in real, populated American towns. The local newspapers wrote extensively on the staged attack exercise and Houston radio broadcaster Alex Jones gathered clippings of these articles.

But a search of the digital archives of the Houston Chronicle, the Dallas Morning News and the Kingsville Record reveals just one reference to the alleged event. In an article entitled, "Exxon Building For Sale?" the last use of the building is mentioned as being a training exercise ground for a special operations force. You can view that article here, but don't be surprised if the link is broken or it has changed. This is most often the case when it comes to links leading to articles on operations that may have been carried out by the Delta Force.

Some allegations have more support from the media. In 2004, reports surfaced in mainstream media that a secret prison operated and staffed by Delta Force members was located at the Baghdad airport. This prison, reserved only for insurgents and terrorists, served as the setting for torture methods like near-drowning, smothering and drugging [source: MSNBC]. And in 1985, Time magazine reported that several Delta Force operators had to be cleared to leave the country after they were dispatched to a hostage rescue mission in Sicily. They were under investigation by the federal government for embezzling and misappropriating money from the secret "black fund" that supports the group [source: Time].

Another allegation -- suggested by "Blackhawk Down" author Mark Bowden in his book, "Killing Pablo" -- is that Delta Force operators were the ones who killed Colombian drug kingpin Pablo Escobar. While the group is known to have been in Colombia when Escobar was gunned down, its members served as trainers for an elite Columbian counterdrug squad, the "Search Bloc." It was the Search Bloc, says the Columbian government, that fired the shots that killed Escobar [source: Diaz-Granados].

[Jennifer_SFBA]

Continued:

[quote=How Delta Force Works by Josh Clark]

Clinton (Albright)

Delta Force was also called out to serve as guards for visiting dignitaries during the World Trade Organization summit in Seattle, Wa., in 1999. Mass protest against the summit was held near the meetings, causing alarm for Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. The Posse Comitatus Act wasn't waived in this case since it was Albright, not law enforcement, who called upon Delta Force's services.

Bush & Obama (Change???) - Obama' cabinet like Bush's for the eight years before Obama's administration is filled with NEOCONSERVATIVE fascist Bilderberg members following the same policies.

"Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates took a giant step Monday toward more tightly blending the active-duty military and reserve components into an “integrated total force,” calling for wide-ranging personnel policy changes, codifying the reserves’ homeland defense role and adequately funding oft-overlooked reserve equipment requirements."

"Gates also called upon Congress to “mandate that the National Guard and Reserves have the lead role in and form the backbone of DoD operations in the homeland.” "

I wonder too ... "Will our "unorganized militia" be involved in "Barack Obama and Joe Biden's Plan for Universal Voluntary Public Service" and get credit for serving in such "unorganized militia" groups as the California State Military Reserve and Massachusetts Volunteer Militia? "

http://www.sgaus.org/

[quote=sgaus.org]

...

From the Minutemen of the American Revolution to the Home Guards of the Second World War, volunteers in state military forces have served our nation and our communities with honor and distinction. It is our privilege to represent the men and women who continue the proud American tradition of volunteer service in today’s state military forces.

...[[quote]

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/20...eserve_112408/

Originally Posted by airforcetimes

Gates: Active force, reserves must integrate

SecDef calls for Congress to mandate that Guard, Reserves have lead in DoD ops in the homeland
By William H. McMichael - Staff writer
Posted : Wednesday Nov 26, 2008 7:14:48 EST

Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates took a giant step Monday toward more tightly blending the active-duty military and reserve components into an “integrated total force,” calling for wide-ranging personnel policy changes, codifying the reserves’ homeland defense role and adequately funding oft-overlooked reserve equipment requirements.

Gates also called upon Congress to “mandate that the National Guard and Reserves have the lead role in and form the backbone of DoD operations in the homeland.”

In a Monday memo sent to every senior uniformed and civilian Pentagon leader and copied to three other cabinet secretaries, Gates directed the development of a new Total Force Integration Policy that recognizes the “cultural divide that exists” between the active and reserve components. “All vestiges of the cultural prejudice” that remain in law “should be removed” by Congress, he wrote.

Gates also called upon Congress to “mandate that the National Guard and Reserves have the lead role in and form the backbone of DoD operations in the homeland.”

Congress, the Commission on the National Guard and Reserves it chartered and the Pentagon, Gates wrote in his 41-page memo, “all recognize that the National Guard and the Reserves are integral to the Total Force and have assumed a greater operational role in today’s force.”

The commission distributed the memo Monday evening in advance of the Pentagon’s planned Tuesday release.

Gates endorsed 82 of the 95 recommendations issued by the commission in its final report in January — some of the 82, he noted, have already been completed or are currently being implemented.

Twenty of the 82 recommendations will require the support of Congress; one asks the president to direct all federal agencies to issue guidance emphasizing the importance of reserve service and to prescribe sanctions for civilian supervisors who fail to comply with guidelines regarding treatment of reservists.

The directives and recommendations represent a near-sweeping endorsement of three years of work by the commission, which said that significant reforms were needed to support the reserve component’s relatively new operational status, including management of the reserves as part of an integrated force.

Gates agreed, saying the Pentagon needs to blend the promotion and management of active and reserve enlisted troops and, separately, officers, into integrated manpower systems. Promotions, Gates said, should be based on the achievement of competencies, not just years of service; the services should tailor “the timing of and opportunity for promotion” by career field, “depending on service requirements.” The moves would require legislation.

Two recommendations would be annual budget action items. Gates ordered that designated “lead offices” for the remaining recommendations submit their implementation plans to the under secretary of defense for personnel and readiness within 25 days.

“The commission members and I are extremely pleased with today’s announcement,” said commission chairman Arnold Punaro in a statement that accompanied its release of the memo. Gates’ decisions, he said, “were not easy to reach and will not be easy to implement” … but are “changes that are essential if the Guard and Reserves are to remain fully capable of meeting current and future threats.”

Several of the commission’s recommendations have already been adopted, including the elevation of the National Guard to a joint activity of the Defense Department and elevating the National Guard Bureau’s chief to 4-star rank.

Gates also:

* Directed the formation of a senior study group to review the current duty status structure, including the commission's recommendation to reduce the number of duty statuses from 29 to two: on active duty, and off;

* Directed the services to conduct a “baseline review” of reserve component equipment requirements, “some of which remain tied to Cold War force management and a strategic reserve”;

* Directed the Army and Marine Corps to restore their reserve components to the highest level of readiness “as soon as possible” but no later than 2015;

* Directed the bolstering of reserve component family support services programs, particularly for transition assistance during the mobilization and demobilization process;

* Said that senior leaders at service headquarters and large commands “must be held accountable for the readiness and performance” of reserve component forces “within their purview” and that the responsibilities “must be reflected in job descriptions and performance appraisals”;

* Asked Congress to amend the Goldwater-Nichols Act to require reserve officers to be designated as “joint qualified” and, at the end of a 10-year transition period, to make joint qualification “a criterion for promotion to flag and general officer rank”;

* Asked Congress to direct the Pentagon to simplify the Tricare claims and reimbursement process to eliminate current “disincentives that discourage providers from taking part” in the program;

* Asked Congress to create a single entity that would oversee the entire Uniformed Services Employment and Reemployment Rights Act.